"Real literature" and fantasy/sci-fi/genre fiction

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > "Real literature" and fantasy/sci-fi/genre fiction

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

CestMoi posted:

It's like I always say, the distinction is basically one of marketing rather than any quantifiable difference in content between real literature and genre fiction.

you mother fucker

# ¿ Jul 17, 2017 13:11

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 15:40

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Radio Spiricom posted:

i think what is literature? is a dumb ontological question though i don't understand why genre fiction readers still have a chip on their shoulder about not being taken seriously by institutions when the books are insanely popular. the other way around makes sense though, educated people have an obligation to not let their brains pickle and die.

I've noticed that genre-heavy readers and literary-heavy readers both think they are getting the short end of the stick.

Literary readers think genre is way more popular because it dominates pop culture more but genre people think lit is more popular because it gets more mainstream credibility

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jul 18, 2017

# ¿ Jul 18, 2017 00:02

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

A human heart posted:

'Lit' doesn't actually get more mainstream credibility though? It's given grudging attention at times but only because that's what people are 'supposed' to pay attention to, and even then they'll usually avoid genuinely innovative or challenging authors in favour of like a murakami or someone similar.

I am talking about perceptions.

For example, in reality for all the assumed popularity of genre fiction it makes almost no money

# ¿ Jul 18, 2017 01:08

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Tree Goat posted:

i don't have the energy to add in all the �i�ek lisps, so you'll have to insert those yourself:

Don't know about lisps but

quote:

fiction only has the *touches nose* potential to be *touches nose* revolutionary if it is engaged with *touches nose* the lived conditions of real people, even aspirationally. there is *touches nose* a reason that soviet realism was the official *touches nose* artistic and literary style of the soviet union. by retreating *touches nose* to fantasy worlds, we cede control *touches nose* over affecting the existing order, and *touches nose* so act to reinforce *touches nose* it (c.f. adam curtis' "hypernormalisation").

escapism necessitates a retreat *touches nose* from these conditions, and so, paradoxically, is *touches nose* the most beholden to them. marx claimed *touches nose* that "the hand-mill gives you *touches nose* society with the feudal lord; the *touches nose* steam-mill society with the *touches nose* industrial capitalist" so too, are the works of *touches nose* verne and gibson indebted to the material *touches nose* conditions at the time of their *touches nose* creation. gibson himself acknowledges this *touches nose* with his short story *touches nose* "the gernsback continuum," which deals explicitly *touches nose* with the combination of nostalgia and second-hand *touches nose* na�vet� when we reflect on *touches nose* science fiction written even a *touches nose* decade or two older than our own.

# ¿ Jul 19, 2017 15:23

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

library comic dot com

the webcomic about libraries!

# ¿ Jul 19, 2017 16:44

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

CestMoi posted:

People won't mock you so much if you don't say very stupid things.

Now you tell me

# ¿ Jul 23, 2017 21:05

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Hate Fibration posted:

Unless you want to argue that the aesthetic experience of prose and rich character development is inherently valuable?

Look at this stupid sentence

you should have your nose pushed in it like a dog who poo poo on the carpet

# ¿ Jul 23, 2017 21:31

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Hate Fibration posted:

Tell me why!

A. You are misconstruing fact for truth
B. You are naively ignoring the artificiality of all narratives and the role of the storyteller in creating meaning
C. If I have to explain to you while beautiful things are valuable you are literally irredeemable as a human being

# ¿ Jul 23, 2017 23:21

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Hate Fibration posted:

Literally nothing. That's the point. The arguments put forth against genre fiction rely on this conceit that literature possesses some intrinsic value outside of entertainment.

A fedora has gained sentience

Liquid Communism posted:

I'd love to hear someone actually attempt to defend The Road as not being paint-by-numbers dystopian science fiction.

I'm not the biggest fan of The Road but if you are going to wholly discount the role of craft in its popularity you are giving the book a tremendously pedestrian reading.

Like, simply looking at The Road and going "heh typical post-apocalyptic fiction" is to reduce all literature to simply the recounting of plot details. Craft matters.

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jul 24, 2017

# ¿ Jul 24, 2017 12:32

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I am still struggling to comprehend the level of intellectual, emotional, and spiritual emptiness it takes to reduce all art to utilitarian entertainment

ulvir posted:

the road is "just" typical post-apocalyptic fiction compared to Blindness though.

Well Blindness is one of the greatest novels ever written so that's not really fair. Like, I will defend McCarthy as a generational talent but Jose Saramago is one of the greatest authors of the 20th century.

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Jul 24, 2017

# ¿ Jul 24, 2017 14:41

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I am also really mad at The Road because its lesser McCarthy that won the Pulitzer over the way more deserving The Echo-maker by Richard Powers

The Echo-Maker is probably the best American novel of the aughts

EDIT: gently caress forgot about Gilead by Marilynne Robinson, second best American novel

# ¿ Jul 24, 2017 14:44

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Tree Goat posted:

it's a normative category based on a combination of its content and its marketing, hth.

not all books with spaceships in them are genre fiction, but all books with spaceships on the cover are genre fiction.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2017 23:20

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Liquid Communism posted:

So your contention is that it has nothing to do with quality, but rather is simply marketing choices?

"Checkmate" he says, laying down the checkers piece

# ¿ Jul 25, 2017 12:31

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Halloween Jack posted:

Is it even that impenetrable, or simply unappealing? I don't keep up with literary fiction, but my stereotype of it is that it's mostly about family drama, upper-middle-class ennui, and/or people who work at a college.

What do you think of Myers' Reader's Manifesto?

Myers is a reactionary imbecile who is so ignorant to good writing he would be better served becoming blind

Like look at this stupid bullshit right here, I remembered it from the last time someone defended his tripe

quote:

Now read this from McCarthy's The Crossing (1994), part of the acclaimed Border Trilogy: "He ate the last of the eggs and wiped the plate with the tortilla and ate the tortilla and drank the last of the coffee and wiped his mouth and looked up and thanked her."

Thriller writers know enough to save this kind of syntax for fast-moving scenes: "... and his shout of fear came as a bloody gurgle and he died, and Wolff felt nothing" (Ken Follett, The Key to Rebecca, 1980). In McCarthy's sentence the unpunctuated flow of words bears no relation to the slow, methodical nature of what is being described.

He literally misses the point of McCarthy's prose and tries to shoe horn it into a pre-existing set of writing "rules" rather than appreciate why it works on its own merits. And the sheer gall to compare Cormac McCarthy to loving Ken Follett.

Halloween Jack posted:

Is it even that impenetrable, or simply unappealing? I don't keep up with literary fiction, but my stereotype of it is that it's mostly about family drama, upper-middle-class ennui, and/or people who work at a college.

Its not. Try actually reading some.

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jul 26, 2017

# ¿ Jul 26, 2017 16:01

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Liquid Communism posted:

I fully admit that I am bored to tears by writing for the sake of wordplay if it is not in service to a compelling narrative. The impression that the author has decided to self-consciously attempt to impress the audience by beating them liberally about the head with a thesaurus is not something I look for in literature.

Name a book that does this.

There is a significant difference between craft and verbosity. Ernest Hemingway is one of the greatest stylists of the English language and his craft was defined by simple terse language.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2017 12:05

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Crimpolioni posted:

Badmouthing the Border Trilogy is gonna earn him at least + 10 years in purgatory, even assuming God is merciful beyond the limits of human comprehension.

I mean, if he went after Cities on the Plain he would at least have a chance but going after The Crossing is asking for trouble

# ¿ Jul 27, 2017 20:45

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

this book that exists as an absurd language game has absurd inorganic language hmmmmmm

# ¿ Aug 2, 2017 00:14

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 15:40

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Ras Het posted:

My problem with "auteur cinema" (I feel dirty just writing those words) is that there's far too many movies where Danish people pretend to have down's syndrome. None of those directors care about plot or entertainment, it's all about gangbangs where goofy looking Nordic dudes act like they're mentally disabled

Dogme 95 4 lyfe

# ¿ Aug 2, 2017 13:32

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > "Real literature" and fantasy/sci-fi/genre fiction