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Typo posted:but said white idpol would have far less appeal without a clear "politically correct" enemy to fight once upon a time they used the civil rights movement, explaining how civil rights equalled race mixing, which equalled communism. Sensible Liberals nodded sensibly and said "while of course they are being crude about it, they -do- have a point; that King character's demands really are hopelessly unrealistic." they have to reach all the way into people getting too into children's television to find their existential left-wing threat these days. they are fully capable of manufacturing an enemy out of whole cloth. we know this because third way democratic politics forced them to manufacture one, and its name is tumblr.
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Jul 18, 2017 23:24
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LordAbaddon posted:I think it probably more accurate to say something more along the lines of "the alt-right used tumblr to justify itself" instead of "tumblr caused the alt-right". Its also immediately observable given how many fringe tumblrs are dug up and paraded around their communities to the chant of "this is why we are right". yeah, it's kind of like saying star citizen created creepy obsessive goons
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Jul 18, 2017 23:24
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Al! posted:yeah, it's kind of like saying star citizen created creepy obsessive goons we didn't start the fire, only about bloated weirdos talking about what's going to end western civilization this week
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Jul 18, 2017 23:26
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Al! posted:yeah, it's kind of like saying star citizen created creepy obsessive goons well it did create a lot more of them, derek smart registered
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Jul 18, 2017 23:38
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Karl Barks posted:well it did create a lot more of them, derek smart registered my dude derek smart was a goon back in 2000
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Jul 18, 2017 23:40
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Ze Pollack posted:remember how Al Gore's lines about music proved Republicans were the real punk rock No the 2011 SJW culture (I don't want to call it "tumblr culture") was genuinely alienating and turned people rightward who wouldn't have otherwise. Was its extent and badness exaggerated in a way that, intentionally or not, converted more people? Yes. But it was still there, and bad, and had a bad effect. Also please stop your fascist stuff about how ugly/socially maladroit people are evil or whatever.
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Jul 19, 2017 00:02
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On second thought I don't want to call it SJW culture either. "Callout culture" is closer but that's too narrow instead of too broad. There's no really good name for it. What's Nagle call it?
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Jul 19, 2017 00:10
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Jeb! Repetition posted:No the 2011 SJW culture (I don't want to call it "tumblr culture") was genuinely alienating and turned people rightward who wouldn't have otherwise. Was its extent and badness exaggerated in a way that, intentionally or not, converted more people? Yes. But it was still there, and bad, and had a bad effect. was the civil rights movement genuinely alienating, and did it turn people rightward who would not have if the negroes had simply accepted the restaurant wasn't going to serve them these are people who were turned rightward by young people being left wing. no more. no less. you do yourself no favors by pretending if only young left wingers stopped being young left wingers- overenthusiastic, tribalist, prone to spasms of infighting, and high on their own righteousness- young right wingers would cease to exist. the culture you are groping towards naming here has a name already. it is Kids These Days. its traits have been static for very literally the entirety of recorded history. they're crude, they're stupid, they think they know everything, they're so transparently horny it's embarrassing, they're into the stupidest fads imaginable, and they're ludicrously eager to one-up each other in the search for belonging by finding someone to eject from the ingroup for approval.
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Jul 19, 2017 00:22
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the exact same dynamics are at play as fifty years ago. It's just that the stakes are almost incalculably lower now.
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Jul 19, 2017 00:23
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Ze Pollack posted:was the civil rights movement genuinely alienating, Okay before I read the rest of this post I gotta lol that you're comparing the civil rights movement to the terrible, pointless, self-defeating LF crisis (that's what I'm calling it now).
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Jul 19, 2017 00:47
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Okay before I read the rest of this post I gotta lol that you're comparing the civil rights movement to the terrible, pointless, self-defeating LF crisis (that's what I'm calling it now) ok before i read the rest of this post i gotta lol at you participating in what you're condemning
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Jul 19, 2017 00:48
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Ze Pollack posted:was the civil rights movement genuinely alienating, and did it turn people rightward who would not have if the negroes had simply accepted the restaurant wasn't going to serve them No, there was a serious peak of stultifying bullshit in the internet (and to a lesser extent college) left in the early 2010s and a lot of it was being done by people on/from Something Awful, who are older than me. It went way beyond the normal eye-rolling or embarrassing stuff you get in youth politics. Its defining qualities were authoritarianism, anti-intellectualism and paranoia, which aren't things young people generally like. And wouldn't you know it, Gen Z had the biggest backlash against it. Al! posted:ok before i read the rest of this post i gotta lol at you participating in what you're condemning I don't think you get what exactly it is I'm condemning.
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Jul 19, 2017 00:56
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Okay before I read the rest of this post I gotta lol that you're comparing the civil rights movement to the terrible, pointless, self-defeating LF crisis (that's what I'm calling it now). no, seriously. was it that was the refrain from Sensible Liberals, after all; the whole exercise was hopelessly self-defeating, because it agitated otherwise comfortably moderate people into supporting right-wing politics. if only we coddled these people a little harder, they wouldn't get scared and vote Goldwater. do I believe tumblr is comparable in importance to the civil rights movement? gently caress no. it is a place where half a generation after ours goes to get weirdly obsessive about tv shows, no more, no less. but how demonstrative of the young right winger's need to be victimized is it, that the same If It Wasn't For Those Damned Crazy Social Justice Types, I'd Still Be A Liberal script that got trotted out against Martin Luther King Junior, is now being trotted out against people writing sherlock/twilight crossover fanfiction.
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Jul 19, 2017 00:56
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Jeb! Repetition posted:No, there was a serious peak of stultifying bullshit in the internet (and to a lesser extent college) left in the early 2010s and a lot of it was being done by people on/from Something Awful, who are older than me. It went way beyond the normal eye-rolling or embarrassing stuff you get in youth politics. Its defining qualities were authoritarianism, anti-intellectualism and paranoia, which aren't things young people generally like. And wouldn't you know it, Gen Z had the biggest backlash against it. no, i can see pretty clearly where you stand lol
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Jul 19, 2017 00:57
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Ze Pollack posted:no, seriously. was it Yeah because it wasn't emancipatory, it didn't seek justice, it didn't give people anything to believe in, it turned off even people who'd be naturally sympathetic. In actual reality it turned people right, which like I said I witnessed myself, and even among young people who remained in the left it became hard to talk about any kind of social justice because all the terms surrounding it are infused with uncoolness. Anyway you're right that the political stuff was only a small part of Tumblr (even smaller nowadays) and that's why I don't like calling it Tumblr culture. LF Crisis is better because you could get a better picture of exactly what was happening on LF and its offshoots.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:02
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Jeb! Repetition posted:No, there was a serious peak of stultifying bullshit in the internet (and to a lesser extent college) left in the early 2010s and a lot of it was being done by people on/from Something Awful, who are older than me. It went way beyond the normal eye-rolling or embarrassing stuff you get in youth politics. Its defining qualities were authoritarianism, anti-intellectualism and paranoia, which aren't things young people generally like. And wouldn't you know it, Gen Z had the biggest backlash against it. drat kids. they can be so cruel when you don't share their opinions. downright anti-intellectual of them, imo. if only we could have stopped them from saying mean things to you. congratulations on recognizing this happening for the first time back around the time you reregged. there will be no point in your life that it ceases to happen. fortunately as you age you tend to more often be on the delivering end of sensible precautions in the name of orthodoxy rather than the receiving end of paranoid anti-intellectual authoritarianism.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:04
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Look, let's just wait until Helsing posts the excerpt, or at least gets to the chapter, where you guys think Nagle blames tumblr for the alt right existing at all. I've no doubt she'll mention them, as they are relevant, but whether or not they're some kind of root cause is a totally different argument.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:14
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Yeah because it wasn't emancipatory, it didn't seek justice, it didn't give people anything to believe in, it turned off even people who'd be naturally sympathetic. In actual reality it turned people right, which like I said I witnessed myself, and even among young people who remained in the left it became hard to talk about any kind of social justice because all the terms surrounding it are infused with uncoolness. missed the question, friend. what I asked was "was the civil rights movement genuinely alienating." because i can guarantee you: Sensible Liberals said it wasn't emancipatory, and didn't really seek justice. it turned off people who'd be naturally sympathetic: witness the political cartoons of MLK in front of a scene of total urban devastation, saying "I plan to lead another 'peaceful' march tomorrow." it certainly turned people right; witness Goldwater Girl Hillary Clinton. and even among young people who remained in the left it became hard to talk about any kind of social justice, because all the terms surrounding it were communist n*****lover talk, and for all this social justice stuff was cool there are some things that are Just Too Far. and oh, my god, the pathetic jargon and infighting between these groups! it was such a joke that the Monty Python guys made an entire movie about it! Life of Brian, it's the one you thought sucked when you were a kid, as an adult you're gonna recognize Brian stumbling into a Tumblr meetup real fuckin' fast. you will not evade young right-wingers coming into existence by moderating the behavior of young left wingers. you can try to offer them something that will help them instead! but you will never prevent right wing backlash by getting left-leaning kids to stop saying stupid poo poo. they are kids. they will say stupid poo poo. this is one of the features of being kids.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:15
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Al! posted:no, i can see pretty clearly where you stand lol I honestly don't think you do if you believe how or what I'm arguing is participating in it. Ze Pollack posted:drat kids. they can be so cruel when you don't share their opinions. downright anti-intellectual of them, imo. if only we could have stopped them from saying mean things to you. Again, it wasn't kids, it was mostly people who were older than me. Maybe I should clarify that I'm not talking about otherkins or cis-haters or other they'll-get-over-it Tumblr stuff, I'm talking about LF types constructing this Orwellian edifice of inquisitorial bad faith where there's no discussion to be had about anything, nor can anything be explained. I'm fine with people being passionate about their beliefs and defending them viciously, the problem is when they become so dogmatic we're completely unprepared to defend them. As far as I can tell that's what Nagle is saying, and it's true, we were so far up our own asses that we lost everything.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:16
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I've long had a bit of a thesis about this, that disagrees with Nagle's idea that the "alt-right" is simply a reaction to utopianism and/or tumblrism how many of these alt-righters or whatever are stuck living with their mom, working dead end jobs, with no future? I'm guessing a lot. because neoliberalism's subservience to castle constantly works to present itself as a "that's just how it is" mechanism, these young men who grew up doing what society told them, only to run into the brick wall of coming into adulthood with no capital, are frustrated, understandably so, with no place to vent their anger that comes from a lack of jobs, a lack of career, and not seeing themselves ever owning a home or whatever, and suddenly there's some idiot on the internet hooting and hollering about the death of western civilization, what think they grew up in as a true, just, and "free" society, and are suckered into the ideal that if we just get rid of these globalists and their feminazis and cucks that our glorious western civilization will finally exist for them in their lifetime (lol no) "movements" (lol) like this rise when capital is concentrated into the hands of an elite few and society falls into a state of disrepair, economically - all the while the government tries to maintain a status quo of the uberwealthy riding high off the backs of the ever-growing poor
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Jul 19, 2017 01:19
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Ze Pollack posted:missed the question, friend. what I asked was "was the civil rights movement genuinely alienating." Oh, I missed the question. No I don't think the Civil Rights movement was alienating. I mean, other than to people who should have been alienated. And I don't believe in moderating the behavior of young left-wingers. The people I'm talking about were the ones doing that. Many of whom, again, were your age.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:20
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Taintrunner posted:I've long had a bit of a thesis about this, that disagrees with Nagle's idea that the "alt-right" is simply a reaction to utopianism and/or tumblrism Yeah, that's a problem too. I'm not trying to give the impression that the LF Crisis was the only thing involved here. Leftism and nationalism are both on the rise because they give answers (even if they're wrong) to the material problems folks are having now, whereas neoliberalism's only possible answer is "steady on, we'll all be programmers soon"
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Jul 19, 2017 01:24
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I honestly don't think you do if you believe how or what I'm arguing is participating in it. so you didnt just kneejerk call him out for demonstrating insufficient reverence without reading his post???????
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Jul 19, 2017 01:24
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Al! posted:so you didnt just kneejerk call him out for demonstrating insufficient reverence without reading his post??????? He went on to make a detailed comparison of exactly how the LF Crisis was like the civil rights movement.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:26
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Typo posted:In the 1930s plenty of people moved from Communism to Fascism and vice-versa without a stopover in the liberal center This is very true. Just look at the people of leftypol. Alot of them are former gamergaters.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:28
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Crowsbeak posted:This is very true. Just look at the people of leftypol. Alot of them are former gamergaters. Whoa, they went in the opposite direction of how I usually see it 
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Jul 19, 2017 01:29
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Whoa, they went in the opposite direction of how I usually see it Well, leftypol is made up of alot of antiidpol let wingers, who realized that the reason their lifes suck isn't the idiot idpolers of tumbler. As well as realizing that the creatures on 4chan are also idpol. They realized that the real problem is porky. Capitalism. 
Crowsbeak has issued a correction as of 01:35 on Jul 19, 2017 |
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Jul 19, 2017 01:32
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Crowsbeak posted:Well, leftypol is made up of alot of antiidpol let wingers, who realized that the reason their lifes suck isn't the idiot idpolers of tumbler. As well as realizing that the creatures on 4chan are also idpol. They realized that the real problem is porky. Capitalism. imo fhats the nice side effect of those types adopting the rhetoric of the left to argue that it is actually women oppressing them by not having sex with them, eventually they realize how loving stupid that premise is but theyve had all this exposure to lefty rhetoric and ideology
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Jul 19, 2017 01:37
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Crowsbeak posted:Well, leftypol is made up of alot of antiidpol let wingers, who realized that the reason their lifes suck isn't the idiot idpolers of tumbler. As well as realizing that the creatures on 4chan are also idpol. They realized that the real problem is porky. Capitalism. Oh yeah, they're probably the source of a few anti-idpol memes I've seen then. My problem with them is the same as my problem with people who only do idpol. I believe social justice and economic justice are both necessary and you can't skimp on either one. Edit: you edited in one of the very memes I was thinking of
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Jul 19, 2017 01:39
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Oh, I missed the question. No I don't think the Civil Rights movement was alienating. I mean, other than to people who should have been alienated. And I don't believe in moderating the behavior of young left-wingers. The people I'm talking about were the ones doing that. Many of whom, again, were your age. don't tell anyone they were still kids the people so desperate for enemies that being bullied by young left-wingers made them turn right, I would argue, probably equally needed to be alienated. the best-case scenario for people like that is becoming the White Moderate MLK devoted a considerable amount of his time and energy to saying "poo poo or get off the pot already" to. to dip our toes back into the world of material conditions, and leave our childish vendettas behind, consider someone who is materially comfortable enough that justice is a secondary concern to just how little they should have to do to produce a better world. how reliable an ally are they. why should anyone working to make a better world consider the dipshits saying "I agree with you in spirit, but your tone is just so HOSTILE" either 1. attainable or 2. worth trying to get onboard in the first place. you cannot trick people into supporting justice. you can make it clear they get a piece of the pie, you can try to sell it to them in different ways if it seems they're not getting it, but as MLK knew and Hillary Clinton so painfully learned, the firm core of bougie-rear end centrists saying "well, maybe if you were just a ~leeetle~ less abrasive asking me to help" are the Afghanistan of politics. chasing them is where movements go to die.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:39
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Whoa, they went in the opposite direction of how I usually see it it's almost like kids being bullied for having insufficiently correct politics is not a phenomenon exclusive to you five years ago poo poo's nuts
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Jul 19, 2017 01:41
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i dont think hill or the dems learned that lesson at all lol
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Jul 19, 2017 01:41
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Al! posted:imo fhats the nice side effect of those types adopting the rhetoric of the left to argue that it is actually women oppressing them by not having sex with them, eventually they realize how loving stupid that premise is but theyve had all this exposure to lefty rhetoric and ideology Actually in a interview that one of them "Batko the Manarchist" had on youtube he mentioned that was part of it. Other part was actually having to earn a living. I would argue that many on the alt right if they were even partially untethered from their parents may soon start singing a different tune. Ze Pollack, Hill lost because she was a loser centrist.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:41
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Crowsbeak posted:Actually in a interview that one of them "Batko the Manarchist" had on youtube he mentioned that was part of it. Other part was actually having to earn a living. I would argue that many on the alt right if they were even partially untethered from their parents may soon start singing a different tune. sure did. "maybe if I compromise with the right enough, they'll support me!" bad news, not how this game works
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Jul 19, 2017 01:45
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Ze Pollack posted:sure did. "maybe if I compromise with the right enough, they'll support me!"
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Jul 19, 2017 01:48
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Crowsbeak posted:Which no one is calling for here. I think he was talking about Hillary not this thread Crowsbeak posted:Actually in a interview that one of them "Batko the Manarchist" had on youtube he mentioned that was part of it. Other part was actually having to earn a living. I would argue that many on the alt right if they were even partially untethered from their parents may soon start singing a different tune. As someone who trafficked in the circles of the internet that eventually formed the alt-right and eventually 180'd into a hardcore leftist I can say that the major catalyst for this change was actually working for a living.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:52
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without that core assumption, the allegation that Lefty Kids These Days in any way caused the alt-right to exist falls into pieces. they were nothing more than the most convenient excuse.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:52
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Ze Pollack posted:don't tell anyone Disclaimer: I'm having a hard time following what you're saying here so I might be responding to a point you didn't make. I'm not talking about tone policing here. I'm against that. It gets you poo poo like how the British labour party isn't really "kinder" because they had marching signs that said "gently caress." The people I know who who were repelled rightward weren't bougie and they didn't care about being polite. In fact it's the exact opposite. Part of the appeal for them is just the opposite, that the right is the transgressive side now. I think this point was discussed earlier in the thread but part of that is unavoidable, as the culture gets more tolerant then becomes, or at least feels like, the underdog. So that's just an unfortunate part of the fortunate reality that things are getting better. But the part we can change, the really bad part, is how dogmatic it was in 2010-2012. It doesn't work when you get inquisitorial like that in a modern free society because you can't just imprison or kill everybody who fails to meet your strict standards. They can just leave. And they did. I myself never went right or really even considered it, I've always been political and a left-liberal and the people who were the most vulnerable were moderate and/or didn't think about politics that much. But I also don't think those people ought to be given up on. They'd probably be easier to get than easily-scandalized bougies.
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Jul 19, 2017 02:05
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Ze Pollack posted:without that core assumption, the allegation that Lefty Kids These Days in any way caused the alt-right to exist falls into pieces. It wasn't because of a lack of compromise, nor was it because of Lefty Kids These Days, it was because early 2010s internet left culture was up its own rear end and the opposite of persuasive.
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Jul 19, 2017 02:09
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Basically we were unwilling to directly refute right-wing cultural ideas whereas the right was willing and eager to refute ours.
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Jul 19, 2017 02:11
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