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SpaceCadetBob posted:Uh, doing a written budget is like pretty much the most basic rule for getting control of your finances. Pretty sure that part is not some horrible conspiracy to keep you poor. The point of posting that McDonald's budget is that it's a totally unreasonable expectation for their employees. I mean, they don't even have a line item for candles! It's all grifting and guilt while ignoring how real issues in society affect individuals negatively. No conspiracy required.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:43
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I completely agree that the aforementioned McD's budget is the hugest pile of horse poo poo, but that doesn't undermine the fact that Ramsey's push to get people on a written budget is a good thing.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:53
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Anubis posted:I used to actually agree with you on this until I realized that I'm not his target demo at all. People with zero financial understanding and who managed to rack up 10s of thousands in CC debt while still having a decent income are his demo. In that case, freeing up smaller monthly payments can actually work out better, because the "gain" of seeing monthly payments fall off, along with the monthly flexibility of having that payment available during months where expenses are unpreventable higher than average, leads to better results. Financial planning in this sense is less about a giant spreadsheet and more about keeping these people on plan, on budget and continuing the goal. It's completely psychological but watching a couple friends get out of debt, I finally understood where this came from. Paying off that smaller CC completely gave them a measure of self confidence that, yes, this is actually possible and there is a light at the end of the tunnel. That's why I stated that target demographic in a post. Different people have different situations, but Ramsey's advice is designed for that target demographic. It doesn't work outside that box, but it's essentially getting told as a one size fits all for absolutely everyone.
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Jul 21, 2017 15:59
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:This all sounds like bible 101 , like are goons just discovering the basic tenets now? That's maybe an argument for ignoring your own pain, but it's straight up blasphemy to say you should ignore others' pain because it's only temporary. In both New and Old Testaments, it's abundantly clear that God commands His people to take care of the poor and see to their immediate needs. Way too many people ignore poverty and injustice because they're focused entirely on the afterlife.
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Jul 21, 2017 17:44
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Uh, doing a written budget is like pretty much the most basic rule for getting control of your finances. Pretty sure that part is not some horrible conspiracy to keep you poor. it's a good thing nobody said this except you, guy who hates this thread for super weird and obscure reasons
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Jul 21, 2017 17:58
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I'm just going to buy a 5x5 meter square lot somewhere dirt cheap, like Bulgaria. Then I'm going to dig a hole in the ground with a round wooden hatch and burrow rooms like a marmot, perhaps with some cosy furniture and such as a cuckoo clock. I will then fish and grow turnips for sustenance until I perish.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:00
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Shibawanko posted:I'm just going to buy a 5x5 meter square lot somewhere dirt cheap, like Bulgaria. Then I'm going to dig a hole in the ground with a round wooden hatch and burrow rooms like a marmot, perhaps with some cosy furniture and such as a cuckoo clock. I will then fish and grow turnips for sustenance until I perish. look at mister big spender here with his clock when he can just use the sun to know what time it is! using the sun to tell time was good enough for jesus so it should be good enough for you or do you think you're better than jesus huh i bet you do dave ramsey spits in your face
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Jul 21, 2017 18:04
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C. Everett Koop posted:dave ramsey spits in your face "Rice and beans, beans and rice"
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Jul 21, 2017 18:08
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boner confessor posted:it's a good thing nobody said this except you, guy who hates this thread for super weird and obscure reasons Pretty sure my reasons aren't weird or obscure. Ramsey's stuff personally helped me obtain a lot of financial security that I didn't have before, and I've seen it help quite a few other people. Bunch of goons that want to scream foul because gosh darn can't talk about Jesus, and well you know his advice doesn't apply to MY PERSONAL SITUATION. His baby steps program works, and for all I disagree with him on social policy, politics, and lots of other things, he treats his guests with respect and has helped lots of people.
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Jul 21, 2017 18:42
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Pretty sure my reasons aren't weird or obscure. Literally "I followed the Staring Guru to prosperity how dare you denigrate him!"
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Jul 21, 2017 19:11
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WampaLord posted:Here's my favorite thing that makes me Angry About Dave Ramsey: I am all for someone being selfless and donating as much as they can. Figure out what you can do, and if you can give 10%, that's great. It's what I do, in both time and money. The biggest thing is, like everything else, figure out where that money is going. Support what you feel you should support, and be an active part in that. Some people can't donate money, but they can donate time. That's great too. ErIog posted:His advice is kind of harmless if you already have money and you literally just need somebody to tell you, "hey pay off your CC instead of buying that new jet ski." If you're someone who's not making a living wage(a lot of people) or are like one health crisis away from bankruptcy(probably most of the US) then it's harmful because it starts from the false premise that you actually have control over your financial life. The biggest fallacy that he is playing off of is the worldview of the uneducated Boomer. I hear this all the time from people of that generation. Everyone just goes to college, which costs $10k per year at most, gets a six-figure job right out of school, and has more money than they know what to do with. That's just how the world is. It is not how the world is any more! Everyone isn't making lots of money, with lots to throw around. All of the bad economic factors of predatory capitalism, deifying the stockholder at the expense of the employee and customer, and funneling wealth out of communities leads to generations of people that don't have the money their parents did, so to give them the same smug financial advice simply doesn't work. Secret Agent X23 posted:I haven't heard a lot of Dave Ramsey, but from the five-minute chunks I've caught on my car radio every six months or so, I take away this: (1) yes, the Christian thing, which I do find a bit off putting just because of how loving hard he hits it, almost to the extent that you'd think he's telling you you can't possibly be financially successful unless you go to an authorized Christian church each and every week and tithe (and maybe that's exactly what he means), and (2) get debt free. Being completely debt free is a good goal to have, but that isn't and shouldn't the sole focus of life, unless your debt is so large that it's crippling you. On one hand, a mature adult should be able to do the following: - Have a managed list of utilities and living expenses (food, gas) that are paid off each month. - Have a living space that's paid for each month, ideally a home mortgage that isn't behind or underwater. - Have insurances in case something were to happen (life, health, property, disability) - Have a percentage of earnings going towards savings and retirement. After those, you have your fun money. Money to save for big purchases, money for leisure and entertainment, money for things and non-regular expenses. That creates a stable lifestyle for your family, as everything is planned ahead and budgeted out. Everything is expected and secure. On one hand, you will always have some debt in life. There are always bills coming in, and there are always extra expenses that can come up. The problem with simply being debt-free and hoarding cash is that you're not building up credit if the problem has more than you can afford, and that your lifestyle is now completely controlled by your finances instead of your finances being a part of your life. I've had potential clients come in that are completely unprepared for certain things, because they are doing the Dave Ramsey stuff and haven't done things to build up credit.
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Jul 21, 2017 19:16
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Why not just build up credit by using a credit card for everything you can afford and then paying it off at the end of the money before needing to pay interest? That's what I did and I have an ungodly amount of available credit now, they keep trying to tempt me into spending more than I can pay off by bumping my credit limit.
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Jul 21, 2017 19:19
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PT6A posted:Why not just build up credit by using a credit card for everything you can afford and then paying it off at the end of the money before needing to pay interest? That's what I did and I have an ungodly amount of available credit now, they keep trying to tempt me into spending more than I can pay off by bumping my credit limit. This is what I do too, with two credit cards (one for monthly bills, one for business expenses). It's the best way to do things, because you're getting the plus of paying things on time, and the plus of using the credit system to do so. It really helps for business expenses, because each statement becomes the expense list for last month. It's great. I'm also getting points for things, which will eventually be used for some airfare in 2018. The reason why not is that the cultural norms that Dave Ramsey taps into are totally binary. Credit cards are always bad, because they were bad for me and others, therefore, they must always be bad. They can't be good, because they are bad. It's not the credit cards' fault they were abused, but the responsibility shifts to that object that must always be bad. AsInHowe fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 19:23
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Joe-Bob posted:I'm really interested in the intersection between grifters like Ramsey and conservatism in general. He's got to be pretty popular with churches. They surely deal with a lot of congregants with serious financial needs that come with stagnant wages and rising health costs. However, at least in American Evangelical circles any thoughts of economic justice are socially unacceptable. Plus, tithes! Lots of little points to respond to this. - Dave Ramsey is so popular with churches that churches don't even need to offer his classes, people demand that the church hold them. I'm not joking. I go to a fairly progressive large church, and people demanded these classes. - There are a lot of people with serious financial needs, but the problem within the congregation is two-fold. One group has people who just say that bad things happen to bad people, costs for things just aren't that expensive, the world is like it is when I was younger, all of that stuff. Group two is people who don't want to come to church to think about things deeply and fix rooted problems, they want to sing, hear some folksy jokes in a kid-friendly message, and watch their children dance, ideally in a costume. There is a ton of economic justice reform coming out of the younger generations within the church, it's just not something that gets into the rural areas because Christian media is overwhelmingly conservative and run by the Southern Baptists. In cities, there are a ton of efforts to clean things up, repair people, and restore these families. I'm actually a part of two different week-long projects coming up in Detroit. PM me for details. - The biggest problem is American Christian media outside of the church. What used to be Christian bookstores all got run out of business or consolidated into a couple large chains, literally owned by the Southern Baptist denomination, who dictate what is acceptable for the stores, which is exactly what you'd assume. Evangelical Christian radio is very conservative as well, with some Christian FM stations playing music in the mornings and nights, with Alex Jones-level talk radio in the afternoons. You might get a truly Biblical message on Sunday, but everywhere else is a minefield.
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Jul 21, 2017 19:48
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AsInHowe posted:This is what I do too, with two credit cards (one for monthly bills, one for business expenses). It's the best way to do things, because you're getting the plus of paying things on time, and the plus of using the credit system to do so. This is based mostly on listening to the show occasionally in the early-mid 2000's, so I might be giving too much credit to the premise that it's for people who actually did make bad choices.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:13
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Popoi posted:It always seemed like Ramsey's deal was targeted at people who already failed to navigate the good/bad credit problem, so no credit for them was the least destructive option available. It seems kind of like addiction recovery in that sense. For most people it's entirely possible to enjoy alcohol responsibly, but if you're in a group of people who very much can't the talk is going to be much more binary and dogmatic. The advice only works for people who already made bad choices and can't control themselves, but it's presented as the only solution that everyone must follow. It's also cheap entertainment for a radio show where the audience wants to hear a folksy guy smugly get the best of callers.
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Jul 21, 2017 20:15
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AsInHowe posted:Below are some articles that explain that, and why. Thanks for the links!
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Jul 21, 2017 21:16
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Also the issue with making a budget isn't that making a budget is/is not a good thing, it's the idea that a corporation suggest making a budget while working two jobs and still not being able to afford heating instead of paying its employees more is insane. Also is $20/month for health insurance in the United States realistic? From what I've heard it isn't, but I don't actually know. If not, then the problem is that there are systemic issues that good budgeting wont solve and no amount of financial planning is going to be able to address that you can't afford rent AND health care for your child. Maybe that's outside the scope of the thread but, I think that's what people are missing in the whole budget debate. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 21:19
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I feel like the envelope method for budgeting would be great if there was a way to enforce it and use it with a card.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:21
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Dreylad posted:Also the issue with making a budget isn't that making a budget is/is not a good thing, it's the idea that a corporation suggest making a budget while working two jobs and still not being able to afford heating instead of paying its employees more is insane. It isn't, necessarily. There were a lot of health insurance plans that were very cheap scam plans, eliminated by the ACA. There's also the fact that Donald Trump confused whole life insurance with health insurance to the New York Times, which has led to some interesting conversations. The endgame of this thread is that there are systemic issues in the American system that have to be tackled as a group, not by everyone just being more disciplined.
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Jul 21, 2017 21:33
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AsInHowe posted:The problem with simply being debt-free and hoarding cash is that you're not building up credit if the problem has more than you can afford, and that your lifestyle is now completely controlled by your finances instead of your finances being a part of your life. I've had potential clients come in that are completely unprepared for certain things, because they are doing the Dave Ramsey stuff and haven't done things to build up credit. Your point is probably right in an American context, but man, whenever I read about this it strikes me as incredibly odd. This might just be a result of cultural priming and the American system might actually be superior in some way, but still. The idea of "building up credit" is completely foreign to my Euro neck of the woods. As someone with precarious and irregular income, my credit card limit is €100 and 10 years ago I might not even have gotten a credit card. If I go into debt and pay it off, nothing improves for me. But if I fail to pay up, I'll have to deal with lifelong (not sure about that) negative entries in a debtor archive, which might end up costing me loan, housing or even employment opportunities. So when I think of debt, I think "this can only make it worse for you", and someone like Ramsey immediately makes sense to me. And I suppose Americans could be excused for feeling that way if they were unfamiliar with the American system of "credit building".
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Jul 21, 2017 22:28
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Sphairon posted:Your point is probably right in an American context, but man, whenever I read about this it strikes me as incredibly odd. This might just be a result of cultural priming and the American system might actually be superior in some way, but still. Unfortunately, credit cards are too often our version of a social safety net. It's just that if you get in too deep with them and have to declare bankruptcy you don't get access to that safety net again for another 7 years.
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Jul 21, 2017 23:56
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Joe-Bob posted:The point of posting that McDonald's budget is that it's a totally unreasonable expectation for their employees. I mean, they don't even have a line item for candles! It's all grifting and guilt while ignoring how real issues in society affect individuals negatively. No conspiracy required. Heating: 0$. I get climate change is happening but, still that's not reasonable at all. Dreylad posted:Also the issue with making a budget isn't that making a budget is/is not a good thing, it's the idea that a corporation suggest making a budget while working two jobs and still not being able to afford heating instead of paying its employees more is insane. 20$ is not reasonable at all especially if you are older. The most reasonable I've personally seen after the ACA was 150$/month for a lovely plan that covered there bare minimum. Azuth0667 fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 23:56
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Wow - lots to unpack with this thread. Dave Ramsey gives generally good advice blended with some religious nonsense. It's not a conservative conspiracy, he gives simple advice that does it's best to help people who are in financial trouble while having a couple blindspots due to his own slightly-kooky beliefs. Obviously it doesn't solve all of capitalism's ills, I don't think he claims to (though if he does that's still easy to ignore, just like the tithing nonsense). He's not an evil conservative mastermind leading people away from true economic justice and it's wrong to tar him just because he talks about poverty without fixing it. The world is better off with him in it, truly.AsInHowe posted:The advice only works for people who already made bad choices and can't control themselves, but it's presented as the only solution that everyone must follow.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:27
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:This is the situation that most people who seek out personal financial advice are in. It's a self-selecting group. Yes, if you have no debt and have extra money each month then, well, you probably don't need the religious financial self-help man. To the people who need help paying off credit debt, "trying to build their credit score" as you advise is what got them into the mess in the first place. Not everyone has the willpower to only spend within their means given the power to do otherwise, and guess what? The people that can't are the ones who need financial advice. It's not that hard to find similar advice without the cult of personality and religious undertones of this one particular one if it's really that distasteful to you but you're ire is unearned. The people going to these classes are not people who necessarily fit the intended demographic. It's simply become a weird cultural standard within evangelical culture for other reasons, and even if medicine works for some people, others are going to suffer negative, unnecessary consequences from it.
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Jul 22, 2017 02:00
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Dave Ramsey isn't perfect, but there isn't anything wrong with what he preaches with regards to saving money, particularly by eliminating dumb spending habits and prioritizing paying debts. Mr. Money Mustache's advice is a lot more solid though.
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Jul 22, 2017 04:27
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enraged_camel posted:Mr. Money Mustache's advice is a lot more solid though. Isn't that the fuckhead who goes so far down the thrifty hole as to be insane about it? Like "don't buy a car, it costs money" and "don't have a pet, it costs money" level poo poo?
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Jul 22, 2017 07:11
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WampaLord posted:Isn't that the fuckhead who goes so far down the thrifty hole as to be insane about it? Yeah, but keep in mind that it's not intended as general financial advice. All of that really extreme advice is meant for people who are interested in making some pretty large sacrifices to become financially independent and retire very, very early. It's not targeted at people who don't think that giving up a lot of luxuries is a fair trade for permanently quitting your job in your 30s.
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Jul 22, 2017 07:43
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It would be really cool if this thread were a facilitated discussion about what "financial planning" and also "credit" means in an array of ideological contexts and not just get parked in establishing to what precise degree prosperity gospel is bad.
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Jul 22, 2017 07:56
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Oh hey a Dave Ramsey thread. Story time: My credit card is a lifesaver. Last month I put instant ramen on it. Six packets for a dollar, and I got a dozen small eggs and a can of spinach so I can make egg drop ramen soup with a spinach garnish. Food of the gods, man, food of the gods. See, I was an independent contractor transcriber until I had to quit because my hands are hosed up, so my credit card has ~$350 on it, which is what's left of my taxes. Because poverty wages still get you taxed, you see. And being an independent contractor means paying it all at once every year. Muh taxes  Right now I need a job and no one is responding to applications or my resume. Luckily Dave Ramsey has advice when you have credit card debt and no job. Here it is: get a job. Thanks, Dave! This advice is roughly in line with advice I get from tea party relatives, like "where there's a will there's a way" and also occasionally something about prayer. My stepmom, who often starts sentences with "Dave Ramsey says," has hinted that college is a luxury and not necessary to make a living. And I've heard my dad talk about the poverty mindset, or whatever the gently caress. He was telling my little brother to finish his potato chips, because leaving food on the plate is the wasteful sort of thing you see poor people do. I watched that happen. gently caress Dave Ramsey.
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Jul 22, 2017 08:22
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, but keep in mind that it's not intended as general financial advice. All of that really extreme advice is meant for people who are interested in making some pretty large sacrifices to become financially independent and retire very, very early. It's not targeted at people who don't think that giving up a lot of luxuries is a fair trade for permanently quitting your job in your 30s. Yeah, and a lot of it is common sense poo poo, like "you don't need to buy a new coffee machine if your current one is working, even if it's really old".
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Jul 22, 2017 14:54
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AsInHowe posted:This thread is for general financial discussion, especially in regards to bad popular advice, bad ideas, and generally pervasive ideas that are doing harm (or doing help). One of the first hits today online for news about budgets: Self-made millionaires agree: You don't need a budget. Here's what to do instead quote:Budgets can be tedious. And once they're made, they're often hard to stick to. The good news is, they're not as mandatory as you may think.  Put money into your investments before you pay your rent or auto payments! Just figure out how to make more money and ignore thinking about budgets or possible future expenses! Selection bias and the just world play big roles in these just-so stories about how to be successful, in everything from career advice to budgeting to finances to the economy more broadly. Two "self-made" millionaires said it so clearly it must be a sound financial strategy. You never get to see the article about the people who didn't budget and wound up in massive debt, or who paid thousands on a certification course but never saw it pan out, or who worked extra hard for the company only to be replaced anyway because the idea that this world is not solely driven by personal responsibility and that luck and circumstances beyond your control play a large role in people's lives is one people don't like to accept.
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Jul 22, 2017 15:47
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Mo_Steel posted:One of the first hits today online for news about budgets: Self-made millionaires agree: You don't need a budget. Here's what to do instead Well, I think the idea is that you should plan to pay yourself first, and if you find that you won't have enough to pay rent after that (for example), that means you should move out and find a cheaper place. Or find roommates. I agree with the general principle: save/invest first, spend second.
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Jul 22, 2017 16:26
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Sphairon posted:The idea of "building up credit" is completely foreign to my Euro neck of the woods. As someone with precarious and irregular income, my credit card limit is €100 and 10 years ago I might not even have gotten a credit card. If I go into debt and pay it off, nothing improves for me. But if I fail to pay up, I'll have to deal with lifelong (not sure about that) negative entries in a debtor archive, which might end up costing me loan, housing or even employment opportunities. Mr. Money Mustache is great. Yeah it's still bootstrappy but what do you expect from a personal finance blog? "Give up and wait for full communism" isn't terribly practical advice.
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Jul 22, 2017 16:40
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Nothing in any way related to communism except "hang anyone who comes around trying to preach it, then bury their skull upside down at a crossroads" is practical advice. The Marxists had their chance with the world and they hosed it up.
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Jul 22, 2017 17:30
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Cicero posted:"Give up and wait for full communism" isn't terribly practical advice. Quite the recidivist attitude you have there, comrade. What other revolutionary principles do you secretly yearn to betray?! 
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Jul 22, 2017 17:35
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ugh its Troika posted:Nothing in any way related to communism except "hang anyone who comes around trying to preach it, then bury their skull upside down at a crossroads" is practical advice. The Marxists had their chance with the world and they hosed it up. Pro username and post combo. Comrade.
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Jul 22, 2017 17:38
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Ugh it's ugh it's Troikaugh its Troika posted:Nothing in any way related to communism except "hang anyone who comes around trying to preach it, then bury their skull upside down at a crossroads" is practical advice. The Marxists had their chance with the world and they hosed it up. Lol who said anything about communism before this post?
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Jul 22, 2017 18:43
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Nevvy Z posted:Lol who said anything about communism before this post? Aside from that, the anti-bootstraps sentiment is strong in D&D and similar message boards, such that criticism of personal finance blogs along the lines of "how dare you try to help people better their financial lives, can't you see they're just at the mercy of kkkapitalism's murderous talons and there's nothing to be done except to push for communism??" is pretty common. For example, from this very thread: quote:If you're someone who's not making a living wage(a lot of people) or are like one health crisis away from bankruptcy(probably most of the US) then it's harmful because it starts from the false premise that you actually have control over your financial life. Now, whether Ramsey's particular advice is good or not is a totally separate issue (mostly it seems to range between "meh, could be worse" to "pretty bad, actually"). Really his greatest virtue is that he reaches a blue-collar/conservative demographic that a lot of other, more liberal/technocratic personal finance bloggers cannot. Cicero fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jul 22, 2017 |
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Jul 22, 2017 19:00
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Cicero posted:Which is dumb because whether capitalism is screwing people over is still orthogonal to giving them individual advice to improve their situation. Yes it sucks that the US doesn't have UHC and whatnot, but using that an excuse to shrug your shoulders and go, "well guess you're just screwed then, no point in trying to make the best of a bad situation" isn't helpful. Good financial advice is usually pretty specific to an individual's particular situation. If you're reasonably well off then you can probably afford to take general purpose advice and make it work, but even otherwise good advice can be actively harmful to someone that's living paycheck to paycheck or struggling to pay their bills. Like, insisting that someone with very little income save 10% of what they earn can really gently caress that person over if they take it to heart.
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Jul 22, 2017 19:23
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