Do Hunters Dream of Lovecraftian Sheep? - Let's Play Bloodborne

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CJacobs: Apr 17, 2011; Reach for the moon!

Strange Matter posted:

It's hard to ignore the evocative nature of the Moon Presence as the source of the Beast Plague, but if that's the case then the entire plot involving Mergo is basically a red-herring. If the Moon Presence's goal is to preserve the Hunt then what advantage does it have in giving the player any kind of concrete goal to reach towards?

One possibility that just occurred to me is that the Moon Presence, if it is the source of the Plague, simply didn't know about Mergo. It's entire M.O. is to bind Hunters to the Dream until they go insane and get sucked into the Hunter's Nightmare, at which point another Hunter gets contracted and the hunt continues. But the Player changes the game by actually uncovering the Mergo conspiracy and successfully slaying a number of Great Ones and Great One-empowered agents. In doing so, you acquire enough Insight and Blood-power to not only defeat Gherman but to oppose the Moon Presence directly.

I'm not super-satisfied by that because it sort of turns the entire game into a wild goose chase. I rather prefer the idea that Mergo is the catalyst causing the Plague, and Laurence and Gherman contacted the Moon Presence to engineer some insurance that, should they personally fail to stop it, there would be a provision for Hunters to continue fighting the plague. But, of course, there was a significant degree of mutual misunderstanding on both sides that lead to Gherman being trapped as the Host both of the Hunter's Dream and the Hunter's Nightmare. In the end, this misunderstanding leads the Moon Presence to its own demise, as it fails to understand that with Mergo slain it's services are no longer necessary.

My interpretation is that this hunt was the night the Mensis scholars decided to enact their ritual to ascend to godhood via contact, but they couldn't because Rom was stopping them. When Jill killed Rom and lifted its protective barrier, they were able to complete the ritual and ended up summoning Mergo, which was the death of all of them. Mergo freaked out, not actually alive but a consciousness that had been plucked from the stars by the scholars, and sent the cthulu invasion and beast transformations into overdrive. This shift in power, in cosmic energy, or some other ethereal craziness drew the moon close to see what the hell was going on- hence the blood moon phase of the game, the moon now appearing in front of the clouds and so on. When Jill did away with Mergo, the disrupt in Yharnam that it was causing ended, and thus the hunt was now over. However, that's not the same thing as the problem being solved. Gehrman offered Jill an out, but by that point she (and we, the audience) had surmised that there was more to it than just a crying cthulu child.

If we had defeated Mergo but left the Moon Presence untouched, future hunts would have cropped up due to its influence. Had Jill just not bothered with any of this and took the nearest boat ride out of Yharnam, the hunt would have continued at its original pace but the Mensis ritual never would have succeeded. We needed to both end the reason for the current hunt (the attempt to contact Mergo) and the source of ongoing hunts (the Moon Presence) for it to be truly over.

CJacobs fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Dec 10, 2018

# ? Dec 10, 2018 16:50

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# ? May 4, 2024 07:31

Strange Matter: Oct 6, 2009; Ask me about Genocide

Makes sense, but that sort of brings up an interesting point: why do you kill Rom? She's not part of the beast plague and there's no reason to think that the Moon Presence or Gherman has a grudge against her. Aside from the ludonarrative reason of "she's got a health bar standing between you and the next area," killing Rom doesn't serve to fight the plague, and actually serves only to make everyone's life more difficult.

Is the answer as simple as "She's a monster, you're a Hunter" and by the time you reach her you've conditioned yourself to fight nasty monsters and are, infact, on a roll in doing so?

# ? Dec 10, 2018 17:00

CJacobs: Apr 17, 2011; Reach for the moon!

There are little hints as to Rom's reason for existence and the fact that it's standing in the way of the true nature of Yharnam before you encounter it. We'd seen notes regarding 'the byrgenwerth spider hiding all manner of secrets' and so on multiple times leading up to that point. The last time you receive instruction from Gehrman is when he tells you to head to the cathedral, and then you're on your own after touching the skull on the altar. Willem points at the lake and mumbles, which gives you insight. I suppose Jill's logic in the situation would be "I saw 'Master' Willem in the vision at the altar, so he should know what's going on around here. He pointed at the lake, and there's a beastie in here that I've heard of before in random notes saying it's hiding secrets. Time to die you big ugly pillbug". It's all Jill really had to go on at that point.

CJacobs fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 10, 2018

# ? Dec 10, 2018 17:09

Strange Matter: Oct 6, 2009; Ask me about Genocide

So it really is a situation of nobody having all the facts. But then again, killing Rom is a necessary evil to stopping a greater threat. Rom's efforts are a stop-gap measure, and there's no guarantee they'd be successful forever. At some point it's feasible that a group would succeed in breaking the seal and without a skilled Hunter like Jill Mergo's influence would run unchecked. So it serves a greater purpose.

On the other hand, maybe the Moon Presence knew exactly what needed to be done to end that Hunt and wouldn't allow your contract to be severed until it's done. With Rom in place, events in Yarnham are frozen-- the Mensis ritual is suspended, but the underlying problem of there being an infant Great One crying out for Contact can't be resolved either. The Great Ones are sympathetic in spirit: the Moon Presence may have seen this all as an act of aid for humanity, from its limited perspective.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 17:21

Lord_Magmar: Feb 24, 2015; "Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"

Interestingly I don't think Jill would forget, Djura and Eileen didn't, and they both dreamed. Maybe you won't remember every little part but the Dream, the Doll, the Hunt, they all seem to remain.

As it is we are now the new Moon Presence, or something similar, and will one day grow to be a Great One.

The question becomes, will we still understand humanity, or will we too fall prey to the inability for Great Ones and Humans to truly understand eachother, and make a huge mess when asked to help instead of actually helping.

Also I think it's very likely the Moon Presence knows exactly what is necessary to end the Hunt, if it has in fact been contracted by Laurence and Gehrman to assist in such matters it has to have some metric by which to say I have completed what I was asked to do.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 17:33

CJacobs: Apr 17, 2011; Reach for the moon!

Also keep in mind that Rom wasn't actually stopping much, its barrier is very much transparent if you have even a modicum of insight. At 40 insight you can see the amygdalas hanging out all over the city and all the other sanity effects without even having turned the game over to nighttime by examining the cathedral altar. They really were there they entire time, we just couldn't see them.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 17:38

Strange Matter: Oct 6, 2009; Ask me about Genocide

It's very telling that Rom, seemingly the first post-Pthumerian ascension, devotes her entire existence to trying to shield the waking world from the reality of the cosmos and from the effects of her organization's efforts.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 17:56

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

quote:

Mergo freaked out, not actually alive but a consciousness that had been plucked from the stars by the scholars

What about the possibility that he never had a body at all, is that ever remarked upon in the game materials? It makes sense to me because he is the spawn of Formless Oedon.

Lord_Magmar posted:

Interestingly I don't think Jill would forget, Djura and Eileen didn't, and they both dreamed. Maybe you won't remember every little part but the Dream, the Doll, the Hunt, they all seem to remain.

I agree. I believe they all mention that memories aren't quite clear anymore and that they're not sure how they actually got out, but all of them remember they dreamed.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 17:57

Lord_Magmar: Feb 24, 2015; "Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"

Cardiovorax posted:

What about the possibility that he never had a body at all, is that ever remarked upon in the game materials? It makes sense to me because he is the spawn of Formless Oedon.

I agree. I believe they all mention that memories aren't quite clear anymore and that they're not sure how they actually got out, but all of them remember they dreamed.

If Mergo had a physical body the only possible item in game it could be is the vanity loot from killing Queen Yharnam. Which is called the Yharnam Stone and looks like a foetus fossilised in Blood.

Which would track with the idea that Mergo was stillborn or otherwise difficult to the point they had to cut him out of Yharnam, hence the bloody dress. Or he never was delivered and slowly fossilised inside her which is a real medical anomaly during some pregnancies.

Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 10, 2018

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:19

CJacobs: Apr 17, 2011; Reach for the moon!

This is Mergo's body, you receive it for defeating Queen Yharnam as a, uh, 'trophy' of your accomplishments. Whatever happened to it and Queen Yharnam when it was born, it was never physically alive, it's been a living consciousness since day one.

edit: beat to the punch lol

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:20

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Hmm. Makes sense enough, then. To become like its "father," it had to be born bodiless in some fashion, so that flows fairly from there.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:24

Lord_Magmar: Feb 24, 2015; "Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"

For reference Mergo is an active part of the Queen Yharnam fight, at first his cries merely stun you if you stay close to her for too long. But at some point Mergo starts tossing you around if you�re close to Mommy when he cries, by which I mean you literally are picked up and slammed against the floor by an invisible force as Mergo cries in your ears.

Meanwhile Yharnam herself fights with her own blood and it�s incredibly dangerous to be near her or far from her if you aren�t paying attention to her knife.

Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 10, 2018

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:24

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Aw, he still loves his mommy. That's actually kind of adorable, in a horrible fossilized ghost baby kind of way.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:26

Lord_Magmar: Feb 24, 2015; "Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"

Cardiovorax posted:

Aw, he still loves his mommy. That's actually kind of adorable, in a horrible fossilized ghost baby kind of way.

Honestly I think that fight is meant to be �canonically� after The Wet Nurse, which I believe ends in returning Mergo to Queen Yharnam, and then you go down into the dungeons to finish them both off as best you can because you are just kind of a dick, probably.

Basically killing the Wet Nurse causes Mergo to return to the last safe place he remembers, Queen Yharnam�s womb.

Relatedly this is why The Wet Nurse looks like a monster version of a Shadow of Yharnam, like the Orphan of Kos an infant great one used something nearby as a basis to create a fighter/protector in the dreamlands. Mergo used his mother�s bodyguards to make the Wet Nurse, The Orphan latched onto Gerhman and made the fight we get.

Which is why killing the boss doesn�t give Nightmare Spain message, they�re constructs of infant great ones, it�s Mergo fading or killing the black ghost that slays the Nightmare.

Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Dec 10, 2018

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:29

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

quote:

then you go down into the dungeons to finish them both off as best you can because you are just kind of a dick, probably.

Well, you are a hunter. Being a dick is just kinda part of the job description, at this point.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:33

Strange Matter: Oct 6, 2009; Ask me about Genocide

Cardiovorax posted:

Well, you are a hunter. Being a dick is just kinda part of the job description, at this point.

Significantly there's no story impetus for you to do this. It doesn't change the ending and I don't even think the Yharnam Stone gives you anything. If you go into the Dungeons to finish off the Queen and Mergo it's because you, the player, chose to. Within the narrative it's representative of a character who wants to put an end to all this eldritch business. As long as Mergo exists he could potentially threaten the world and he needs to be destroyed.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:41

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Strange Matter posted:

Significantly there's no story impetus for you to do this. It doesn't change the ending and I don't even think the Yharnam Stone gives you anything. If you go into the Dungeons to finish off the Queen and Mergo it's because you, the player, chose to. Within the narrative it's representative of a character who wants to put an end to all this eldritch business. As long as Mergo exists he could potentially threaten the world and he needs to be destroyed.

There's really no particular reason to believe this unless you decide to feel that way about all the Great Ones. Mergo isn't really any more actively hostile to humanity than the rest of them, just inadvertently stuck in a bad place.

Of course, given the behaviour of the character, it's perfectly reasonable to infer that this is your motivation.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 18:56

Strange Matter: Oct 6, 2009; Ask me about Genocide

Cardiovorax posted:

There's really no particular reason to believe this unless you decide to feel that way about all the Great Ones. Mergo isn't really any more actively hostile to humanity than the rest of them, just inadvertently stuck in a bad place.

Of course, given the behaviour of the character, it's perfectly reasonable to infer that this is your motivation.

It's the Roadside Picnic conundrum. You've got Great Ones whose slightest footprints in the waking world cause enormous repercussions purely through their existence, without any malice or even any purpose. A dead one washes up on the shore of a fishing villages and leads to a massacre. Every attempt at contact and congress with them leads to disaster because of the incomprehensibly vast gulf between our states of existence. At their most benign they still give humans the ammunition they need to commit atrocities. They never meant any harm, but that's irrelevant. The moment their world and humanity was bridged it caused damage.

So yeah, I can definitely see a character exposed to this stuff getting a *little* militant about things.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 19:27

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Strange Matter posted:

So yeah, I can definitely see a character exposed to this stuff getting a *little* militant about things.

Or, as it were, flip the other way around and become dead-set on becoming one of them. I like how the game kinda offers you both resolutions, if you want them.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 19:50

Arcomage: Nov 10, 2012

CJacobs posted:

I think Lord Magmar has a valid interpretation of the story, specifically because of the whole 'every great one yearns for a surrogate' thing that's come up a whole bunch at this point. To the Moon Presence, Gehrman may very well have been its surrogate child. He was certainly not satisfied with this outcome, but the Moon Presence probably didn't know or care. I would say that it's clear as day that the Moon Presence was causing the beast outbreaks, or at the very least the transformation of men into beasts (as opposed to the blood mutating people in other ways), but it likewise may not have even been intentionally causing harm to the people of Yharnam. The way it embraces Jill implies that it's not inherently hostile to her, but we don't know and probably never will be able to suss out how the Moon Presence felt about the people it was watching over.

There are a lot of interpretations there, yes. The Moon Presence is very much at the heart of everything, but the specifics of how and why are unknowable (and I suspect that they are so by design). Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the Plague of Beasts was originally not associated with it at all, but rather a side effect of Oedon's blood bringing people to a state closer to it physically in the same way that Insight might elevate them mentally. Which is not necessarily bad by itself - there's a fair few lucid beasts still around even in Jill's time - but then again it's not hard to imagine newly-transformed Yharnamites rioting wildly in their horror or reveling in their newfound strength, either. Apparently it got bad enough that someone decided that a significant portion of Yharnam needed to be burned down, and unfortunately that's when Gehrman managed to contact the Moon Presence. He desired a neverending hunt, so that his hunters might actually scour the streets of the plague, and he got his wish granted to the letter. Unfortunately, he never did quite realize (or if he did, he did so far too late) that a neverending hunt would also require the perpetuation of the beast plague. I don't think this theory requires any real malice on the part of the Moon Presence, either - all it requires is a miscommunication between humans and Great Ones, which is definitely in theme with the rest of the game.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:00

Strange Matter: Oct 6, 2009; Ask me about Genocide

Cardiovorax posted:

Or, as it were, flip the other way around and become dead-set on becoming one of them. I like how the game kinda offers you both resolutions, if you want them.

And that's what's so haunting about the game and it's story: it's about choice. Every calamity that's befallen Yarnham is because of human will. You're not the pawn in an eldritch plot or an ant under a lovecraftian magnifying glass. To quote the very excellent horror RPG Unknown Armies: we did this. Granted the Great Ones were complicit but it wasn't their idea, they were only granting human requests as best they could. Byrgenwerth, the Church, the Choir, the Hunters, the Vilebloods, the Executioners, the Powder Kegs, Mensis-- all of them made conscious decisions to toy with cosmic powers and were either destroyed by them or were driven to their logical conclusions, and in either case left huge swathes of destruction in their path. Yes, there are powerful, godlike beings watching us, but they aren't responsible for the death and inhumanity that happens in the game. We did it.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 20:56

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

I completely agree. The best thing about this game is how, despite the Lovecraftian themes, it's ultimately not about an uncaring cosmos toying with humanity and leading to their destruction. It's all about the human capacity to decide our own destiny, whether to our detriment or our benefit.

It's really kind of optimistic and hopeful, for a Souls game. Sure, Yharnam is hosed, but they kind of had it coming and the rest of the world will keep on turning as it ever did. Maybe with one more human-friendly Great One around.

# ? Dec 10, 2018 21:07

biosterous: Feb 23, 2013

# ? Dec 11, 2018 05:44

Kibayasu: Mar 28, 2010

biosterous posted:

You must be quite boisterous at the fact.

# ? Dec 11, 2018 21:39

Green Intern: Dec 29, 2008; Loon, Crazy and Laughable

Congratulations, and thanks for being so exhaustive!

# ? Dec 12, 2018 00:41

Mr. Fish: Sep 13, 2017; INLAND EMPIRE — This is a team with a lot of past, but little present. And almost no future.

Thanks for the great LP, guy. You have a knack for making friendly commentary while still making sure the game takes center stage. This is up there with Squint's LP of Demon's Souls for me in how to best show off one of these kinds of games. Looking forward to the next one.

Here's a sketch my friend did that I think the thread would enjoy. You can see more of her art at https://www.ilanablady.me/

ahh, Kos....or some say Kosm....do you sip our tea?

# ? Dec 12, 2018 01:41

LonelyMudkip: Jul 19, 2016

Thanks for producing such awesome content CJ, I've been having a pretty lovely time in real life so it's been really nice to have something to take my mind off of stuff. This has been a good lp and a good thread.

Please accept this extremely rough drawing of Jill as a squid child (Edit: now with slightly less lovely line work)

Kid now squid now etc

LonelyMudkip fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Dec 14, 2018

# ? Dec 12, 2018 02:19

Shei-kun: Dec 2, 2011; Screw you, physics!

CJacobs posted:

Thank you all very much for helping me survive one of the hardest years of my life. Sincerely, thank you. You mean the world to me.

Goddamn it, CJacobs! Now it's raining. Also onion ninjas.

# ? Dec 12, 2018 05:14

Jonny Nox: Apr 26, 2008

A few times during the year I was more excited that CJacobs was healthy enough to post a video than for the content itself, if that makes sense.

# ? Dec 12, 2018 06:44

Detective Thompson: Nov 9, 2007; Sammy Davis Jr. Jr. is also in repose.

My Cuck Dad posted:

Thanks for the great LP, guy. You have a knack for making friendly commentary while still making sure the game takes center stage. This is up there with Squint's LP of Demon's Souls for me in how to best show off one of these kinds of games. Looking forward to the next one.

Here's a sketch my friend did that I think the thread would enjoy. You can see more of her art at https://www.ilanablady.me/

ahh, Kos....or some say Kosm....do you sip our tea?

Did I miss the gay stuff with Micolash? Or is your friend just an rear end in a top hat?

# ? Dec 13, 2018 02:55

Lord_Magmar: Feb 24, 2015; "Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"

Detective Thompson posted:

Did I miss the gay stuff with Micolash? Or is your friend just an rear end in a top hat?

Micolash kind of is very appreciative of how good looking the Hunter is, calls you majestic and so on.

# ? Dec 13, 2018 05:21

Mr. Fish: Sep 13, 2017; INLAND EMPIRE — This is a team with a lot of past, but little present. And almost no future.

Detective Thompson posted:

Did I miss the gay stuff with Micolash? Or is your friend just an rear end in a top hat?

There's nothing to suggest that he isn't gay. :v:

# ? Dec 13, 2018 06:49

Carpator Diei: Feb 26, 2011

Jonny Nox posted:

A few times during the year I was more excited that CJacobs was healthy enough to post a video than for the content itself, if that makes sense.

Thanks a lot for the LP, it was certainly something quite unique. I already knew Bloodborne inside-out when I started following this LP and I still feel like I gained some new insight, if you'll excuse the turn of phrase. And there's one aspect I wouldn't want to let slip through the cracks: Doing a deliberately slow-paced LP of a game the size of Bloodborne, with lots of bonus features, and finishing it in 30 videos with an average length of maybe 35 to 40 minutes is honestly awe-inspiring. Probably the most well-organized LP I've ever seen.

That being said, here's a strangely topical poem by Walt Whitman that might also be an apt description of Jill's current state of being:

Kosmos

Who includes diversity and is Nature,
Who is the amplitude of the earth, and the coarseness and sexuality of the earth, and the great charity of the earth and the equilibrium also,
Who has not look�d forth from the windows the eyes for nothing, or whose brain held audience with messengers for nothing,
Who contains believers and disbelievers, who is the most majestic lover,
Who holds duly his or her triune proportion of realism, spiritualism, and of the �sthetic or intellectual,
Who having consider�d the body finds all its organs and parts good,
Who, out of the theory of the earth and of his or her body understands by subtle analogies all other theories,
The theory of a city, a poem, and of the large politics of these States;
Who believes not only in our globe with its sun and moon, but in other globes with their suns and moons,
Who, constructing the house of himself or herself, not for a day but for all time, sees races, eras, dates, generations,
The past, the future, dwelling there, like space, inseparable together.

# ? Dec 13, 2018 11:00

CJacobs: Apr 17, 2011; Reach for the moon!

Thank you all for the kind words, I'm glad that all my effort paid off. When I initially started recording the let's play I wondered if I was going to be able to make the slow pace work for the whole thing, and it's very satisfying to finally see it all come together!

# ? Dec 13, 2018 13:39

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

Just want to add a little bit of praise to the heap. Your work is excellent, Cjacobs, and I enjoyed your style very much. I look forward to your next project to be sure!

# ? Dec 13, 2018 13:44

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

CJacobs posted:

Thank you all for the kind words, I'm glad that all my effort paid off. When I initially started recording the let's play I wondered if I was going to be able to make the slow pace work for the whole thing, and it's very satisfying to finally see it all come together!

I think it worked very well and I really appreciated how much you showed off the game. I also watched ChaosArgate's run and I really didn't appreciate just how pretty this game is until I watched yours, because you actually took the time to look at everything... and up. Mostly it's the "up" part. :v:

# ? Dec 13, 2018 14:50

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# ? May 4, 2024 07:31

Hunt11: Jul 24, 2013; Grimey Drawer

What helped is that you lped the game in a very different style then anyone else which helped it stand out from the pack.

# ? Dec 13, 2018 15:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > Do Hunters Dream of Lovecraftian Sheep? - Let's Play Bloodborne

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