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Just a thought, but maybe stop giving any moron with $25 and a driver's license a truck. I mean really, what the gently caress does anyone in NYC need a truck for? Do movers not exist in New York?
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Nov 1, 2017 03:26
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Just a thought, but maybe stop giving any moron with $25 and a driver's license a truck. You can run people over with other cars, or just steal one. Generally you rent a truck if you don't have the money to pay someone to put things in their truck and drive it around for you. Also the thing about trucks is they're on wheels and self propelled so you could just rent a truck somewhere else and drive it to where you want to run people over.
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Nov 1, 2017 03:37
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Yeah even as a primary cyclist and pedestrian I'm not gonna call for stricter restrictions on who can rent cars. That's silly. North American transportation is completely built around the automobile. That's dumb and bad but it's a little tricky to unwind 100 years of design at this point. Just keep building more physical poo poo to separate the squishy slow modes of travel from the hard and fast ones. You'll never eliminate the risk completely but if we could cap this poo poo out at like 5 fatalities per incident that would probably be a good start and be a decent discouragement for any would be terrorists to use that method instead of good old guns or whatever.
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Nov 1, 2017 04:08
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Just a thought, but maybe stop giving any moron with $25 and a driver's license a truck. Er, if you were moving something say from NJ into Long Island, you'd need to rent a truck and you'd need to drive that truck across Manhattan surface streets most of the time. And it'd be a little cost prohibitive to rent both a truck and two or three guys' time to hire movers instead. The Butcher posted:Just keep building more physical poo poo to separate the squishy slow modes of travel from the hard and fast ones. You'll never eliminate the risk completely but if we could cap this poo poo out at like 5 fatalities per incident that would probably be a good start and be a decent discouragement for any would be terrorists to use that method instead of good old guns or whatever. People still need to cross streets even if we build an impenetrable fence around the sidewalks and poo poo. You'll have a big fat target as some sort of vehicular homicide lover at any of the busy intersections.
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Nov 2, 2017 15:14
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Guns aren't swords, either. It's just a metaphor.   And its modern equivalent, which is about as good an idea:  The Butcher posted:Yeah even as a primary cyclist and pedestrian I'm not gonna call for stricter restrictions on who can rent cars. That's silly. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 15:19
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Guavanaut posted:Could that be the beginning of a positive anti-terror case for public transport? Or does cities being in near constant gridlock actually slow terrorists down? Public transport's just another target. Also things like trucks are supposed to still be on the street even if there's a lot of public transport - you're not going to haul a trailer full of grocery deliveries in to your grocery store in the middle of town on the bus or something. You're not going to expect your plumber to haul around the spare pipe and stuff on a subway seat rather than in his van.
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Nov 2, 2017 15:42
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Plant some goddamn trees along the streets. Nature's Bollards.
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Nov 2, 2017 16:57
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Instant Sunrise posted:Plant some goddamn trees along the streets. Nature's Bollards. Not good for the roads or the pavement or the plumbing or the gas mains or nearby buildings though.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:03
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Plus unless you're going to pay people to trim or pollard them, they're going to become a hazard to traffic. And city councils always get tired of paying people to manage them, and just end up cutting them down.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:12
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This attack compared to Vegas shows just how ineffective vehicles are as a weapon are compared to guns.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:30
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Just a thought, but maybe stop giving any moron with $25 and a driver's license a truck. One day we will ban hands, and it will be worth it, if only to prevent knee-jerk responses like this.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:23
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Trabisnikof posted:This attack compared to Vegas shows just how ineffective vehicles are as a weapon are compared to guns. Much like Nice compared to Vegas showed just how ineffective guns were compared to vehicles.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:24
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Trabisnikof posted:This attack compared to Vegas shows just how ineffective vehicles are as a weapon are compared to guns. Are you sure about that? 
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Nov 3, 2017 00:48
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The thing we really need to worry about is a truck filled with hazardous.
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Nov 3, 2017 06:32
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BrandorKP posted:The thing we really need to worry about is a truck filled with hazardous. "Dirty bomb" panic is due for a comeback, can't wait.
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Nov 3, 2017 14:25
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Trucking has horrible turnover and drayage sucks pay and life wise comparatively. Ocassionally drivers without credentials for haz strip placards off containers drive them to a terminal (illegally) and then put them back on while in line for the gate. Often container terminals are relatively close to populated areas in major cities. Now the really nasty stuff is permitted, but really nasty is relative. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 16:01
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We got self driving cars on the way right? Make populated city centers mandatory automated drive zones. In the meantime, bollards. Maybe we can patch cars with cpus to monitor the acceleration, speed, and direction of cars in relation to their surroundings and autobrake and turn off. Maybe lock the seatbelt too. At least cars available in rental agencies can be targetted first as we move to remove fuel inefficienicent cars from the marketplace. And while I'm in dreamland we could abolish the dealership method of distribution to combat inflated costs of vehicles, offset the costs of new safety features, and combat predatory lending. Finally, we could instead institute background checks and mental fitness tests in addition to driver competency to obtain a drivers licence. This idea would need more massaging. Car enthusiasts may object to mandatory autopilot. But to a person i sincerely ask, who actually likes city driving.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:23
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SlipUp posted:We got self driving cars on the way right? Make populated city centers mandatory automated drive zones. That'd be a great way to kill more people, which seems to be the opposite of limiting deaths due to cars.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:06
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A guy crashed his car into the clocktower on my college campus today. The clocktower is a good 300 feet from the nearest road. Forget terrorists, take away people's licenses when they turn 70 and make them retake the test if they want it back.
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Jan 22, 2018 22:32
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SlipUp posted:We got self driving cars on the way right? Make populated city centers mandatory automated drive zones. Yeah and then let's do forced sterilization for all except for an elite few, and implanted microchips to monitor badthink afterwards.
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Jan 23, 2018 23:23
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svenkatesh posted:Yeah and then let's do forced sterilization for all except for an elite few, and implanted microchips to monitor badthink afterwards.
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Jan 24, 2018 08:30
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The Butcher posted:Yeah even as a primary cyclist and pedestrian I'm not gonna call for stricter restrictions on who can rent cars. That's silly. Bollards are loving dire for pedestrian use, because they never seem to come out of the road, only the sidewalk. Like so much terror response, it's tackling the short-term problem (dudes running people over) by handing them their long-term goal (permanent societal disruption, reduction of use of target areas). Trees are an even worse subset that have to be inset rather than growing from the curb, and can't be spaced close enough to not be easily threaded. Fences are more appealing, but are incompatible with on-street parking and designed to stop drinkers in small sedans at city speeds rather than the malicious flooring it in a Silverado. There isn't really a technical solution other than light-to-medium-vehicle-only congestion zones, and the current state of the law is that light vehicles are banned on federal roads and most state roads while existing residents, workers, and businesses in those zones are likely to own heavy vehicles.
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Jan 24, 2018 12:06
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You find bollards more awkward as a pedestrian than fences..?
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Jan 24, 2018 12:25
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OwlFancier posted:You find bollards more awkward as a pedestrian than fences..? An ungapped and unhoppable fence makes me walk to the end of the block, perhaps costing a minute or two if I wasn't thinking ahead but only where it was safe to jaywalk to begin with (so honestly nowhere bollards would be placed). In return, they're a good place to lean while finishing a drink or checking something on my phone, or make good trellises for low greenery or space for signs. Bad bollards, and the trend is toward bad but decorative ones, halve the usable sidewalk space. Good ones leave about three-fourths. Both are miserable when crowded, which is often because sidewalk width is also a function of planned use just as much as road width and takes just as poorly to sudden reduction.
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Jan 24, 2018 12:41
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Maybe that's an American issue cos I've never had any problems with them. They don't obstruct the pavement and jaywalking isn't a thing here, you can cross the road if there traffic is clear.
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Jan 24, 2018 12:56
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OwlFancier posted:Maybe that's an American issue cos I've never had any problems with them. They don't obstruct the pavement and jaywalking isn't a thing here, you can cross the road if there traffic is clear. I've seen very, very few post-hoc installations which aren't set around 50cm back from the curb to midpoint, so the road or at least parking don't have to come up during installation. At that point you're eating 75cm-1m of usable sidewalk space, which essentially reduces the capacity by one walker, even for simplistic pole bollards; bring it up to wide concrete posts or flowerbeds for visual appeal and losing 1.5-2m and two walkers isn't unusual. At which point all but the widest boulevards go from comfortable 2-way traffic to messy merges when side-by-side walkers pass, to say nothing of walked bikes on their last block. And regardless of whether jaywalking's a thing per se, if traffic is regularly thin enough to cross apart from crossings you're edging in on the sort of road which doesn't see heavy enough traffic to justify bollards to begin with.
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Jan 24, 2018 13:14
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*shrug* most places where they fit bollards have no on street parking and they're quite close to the kerb. They're not really compatible with on street parking any moreso than fences are, functionally they're a fence that pedestrians can walk through.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 13:19
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That may be a localized European thing, as I've found it doesn't hold at all across either the US or Canada (whether designed-in or retrofitted, pre-grid or post-grid cities the same) or east Asia. is closer to my experience of a relatively thoughtful installation, and at that point the sidewalk becomes the equivalent of a lane-and-a-half road where it's nominally usable for two but requires adjustment and slower going around bigger vehicles. A fence like this, to pick from places I've lived, fits in planters in the same amount of setback, except they're planters and you can comfortably walk with an arm swinging above them. While also, again, improving liveability through providing greenspace and room for local government placards designating things like trash collection points, rather than just being heavier-duty (!) versions of Maginot Line tank traps.
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Jan 24, 2018 13:47
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I mean, that looks like a reasonable sized pavement to me, if not slightly bigger than what I'm used to. Sometimes you have to tuck in to let people past but you can stand in the bollards if you need to whereas you're scuppered in fenced off bits. Hedges are OK but they require a fair bit of maintenance unless you want them growing out into the path all the time so installing them means that you need an army of crews with trucks and clippers in the summer. They can be a nightmare if not maintained, also they tend to attract rats. I'm also not sure the smaller ones would really stop cars. Not to make an americans are fat joke but that pavement really does look big enough for two pretty easily. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 14:07
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You keep assuming Americans , and it's true my take on vehicle laws was US-centric, but that picture's from Jukkembashi. There was a shuffle every time someone went through with a bike, and would have been for opposing walkers if not for the 25cm or so of added space gained by being able to walk arm-over-planter (visible especially around open shops that ate that much with a sign or ashtray or front step.) People need 50cm edge-to-edge, but want 50cm center-to-other-guy's-edge. Which means permaclogs if you replace those with standard bollards. That does make the stopping-a-heavy-vehicle factor a question. But that's why my conclusion is that technical security measures on urban neighborhood main streets are a lost cause without a full replacement of urban vehicle stock in favor of a high-trimline Corolla being considered a large luxury sedan and the local market getting their deliveries on a kei truck rather than a Fuso. (Technically you could build a sturdier fence by reclaiming on-street parking, but you can't do that without reducing vehicle footprint either.) e: really, that's the thing. "good for two" collapses easily because young couples or parents with children or elderly with mobility tools or midrange commuters with bikes are all really common use cases and are all two (monodirectional). can adjustment be made? of course, but it's the same kind of weird and bad for flow that occurs if someone in a reasonably-sized car were to put on their blinkers and stop at the curb there. and it occurs full-time for bollards but only during planter/chair areas for a fence. Mandoric fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 14:24
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SlipUp posted:We got self driving cars on the way right? Make populated city centers mandatory automated drive zones. In 50 years or so, when the tech is good, we could probably get cars that refuse to drive into humans even when in manual mode. So the solution to this issue might be "Do nothing, wait until the problem becomes obsolete."
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Jan 24, 2018 17:21
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OwlFancier posted:Maybe that's an American issue cos I've never had any problems with them. They don't obstruct the pavement and jaywalking isn't a thing here, you can cross the road if there traffic is clear. Jaywalking isn't actually illegal in most of the US either, or if it is it's kept at the extremely low misdemeanor fines of a century ago (eg if you manage to get a cop to cite you for jaywalking in Boston, the fine is $1). You still call it jaywalking when you're crossing away from normal intersections or crosswalks though.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:36
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I mean I guess I just don't see "not able to walk two abreast down the pavement without having to occasionally make way for oncoming pedestrians" to be a problem? I've never been anywhere even in pedestrianized areas where that wasn't a thing. Pavement space appears to be universally built such that you will have to do that, if the pavement is bigger you still have to do it because the reason it's bigger is because it's also busier. It doesn't make navigating an area difficult I don't find? The nice thing about people is that it doesn't really cause problems to have them weaving in and out a lot. I've never felt "drat I really wish I could walk without having to look out for other people" because that's... just what urban areas are like? Better pedestrian access means more pedestrians and if you made the spaces even bigger that arguably makes them more awkward to walk in because giant open spaces aren't super human friendly. Part of the reason a lot of areas are busy is because there's a lot of stuff in close walking distance which doesn't facilitate massive open streets everywhere. Bikes are an exception but that's why you're not allowed to ride them on the pavement here unless it's a proper cycle lane, which will be much wider and have a painted median. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 17:47
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This was a bad thread when it died naturally of boredom in November. SlipUp slipped up and revived it from its timely demise. Putting bollards and protected areas in every possible place a truck could drive where lots of people walk is both impossible and a waste of money.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:09
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As is having police patrol every possible area where there could be a crime but we still have them do patrols. Putting a solid barrier between pedestrians and the traffic is a good idea for a number of reasons adjacent to terrorism prevention.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:12
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sitting in my kitchen, sweating with dread, as my unopened bag of Wonderbread silently stalks around the room looking for another victim to add to its lengthy list e: oh poo poo, not carbs terrorism
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Jan 24, 2018 21:04
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Posting is a weapon of terrorism.
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Jan 24, 2018 21:06
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Sensual Simian posted:
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Jan 24, 2018 21:07
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I was excited to have an opportunity to shed light on the real terrorists in ohr midst.
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Jan 24, 2018 21:28
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cda posted:Is there anything we can do? It seems like terrorists finally got hip to the fact that we're addicted to our cars even moreso than our guns, and the KDR for cars appears to be at least as high, if not higher, than most gun or knife attacks. We're not about to ban cars or even regulate them any more than they already are. Wearing a bulletproof vest won't stop a car from gettin ya. It seems like we're just hosed and there's nothing we can do except accept it. That's how I feel at this moment, but I figure if anyone has any good ideas, they probably post in D&Dm so here we are. Please brainstorm ways to keep me safe from terror automobiles. If they keep you safe, too, I guess that's okay as well, but start with me, because I'm precious. Thanks. Let's spend the hilariously low amount of billions required to end world hunger and see if people still want to kill us.
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Jan 24, 2018 21:33
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