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Nitrousoxide posted:SupSup 148 Winston's falling for the CLASSIC trap. You *can't* get good/popular/whatever by tearing other people down. It doesn't work. You have to be focused on the self improvement aspect. He's SO CLOSE in some ways, he's just too focused on the leveraging and not enough on the DOING. If he just whole-heartedly tried to do, with enough awareness to film, he'd be fine. Like the stove stuff - don't make it big, don't make it fancy, find a hundred stoves to check they're off by doing it inside. Knock on doors, make sure people are alright, get hours of footage of him running around, and BOOM. He's THERE. Except he's too focused on the 'looking cool' part, and ignoring his craft, so to speak. It's like a writer who's spending all their time and effort marketing, and not actually writing a good story.
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Apr 16, 2024 14:21
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SupSup 148: Winston getting owned so hard that he's spiralling into paranoid delusions? Chefs kiss. So funny. Regarding the rabbit girls' very scary situation, it sure is rough out there. At first I thought we were seeing the "stat doubling" that the danger siblings talked about, but it turned out it was just Lute being more powerful than expected. Maybe he really will transfer to the hero program. I am very curious what a key of voices is. Sounds rad.
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Apr 16, 2024 15:52
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SupSup 148: Overall, a great chapter. Regarding the rabbit girls' scary situation: I'm surprised Sleyca went with this specific setup. Having the girls get caught in the riot is a good way to inject tension into the otherwise boring scene of them sensibly walking away and safely finding shelter by following the System instructions. Them being safe wouldn't even provide a good contrast with everyone else - because we've already seen people being safe by following instructions and getting to the CNH gym. So I understand why some danger needed to be added to the scene. Hiding in the bathroom - also fine. It's what happens next that surprised me. There's lots of ways that could have gone really bad. The option Sleyca chose, of having random scared people try to kidnap them and use them as human shields is crazy. That's hardened serial killer behavior. Taking a hostage in the middle of a tense situation is already pretty uncommon - people who aren't used to violence usually can't twist their brains enough to come up with that kind of (bad) plan. Taking a hostage in cold blood and planning to use them as a human shield is a step even beyond that. That's some straight up super villain nonsense. Like that comic with the dude robbing a bank with babies strapped to him. To put some hard numbers to this, FBI crime stats indicate that less than 0.0009% of all crimes involve hostages. I wonder if another editing pass would have seen the danger morph into something else. Something that made the random scared people feel more like random scared people and less like psychos. Lots of really cool stuff going on, but that scene is sticking with me because it rings less true than the other vignettes. LLSix fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 17:59
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Supsup 148 I mean there's lots of darker ways you could take it when Nat the living goddess is there and I'm glad Sleyca didn't threaten that tbh
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Apr 16, 2024 18:02
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gonadic io posted:Supsup 148 I mean there's lots of darker ways you could take it when Nat the living goddess is there and I'm glad Sleyca didn't threaten that tbh Absolutely. And I'm glad she didn't. If anything, I'm suggesting the scene should rate lower on the deplorable action meter, not higher. LLSix fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 18:04
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I got stuck from reading the Last Science in early book 2 when it suddenly had the young girl gets incredibly traumatised and assaulted including sexually for no reason for example.
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Apr 16, 2024 18:04
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Writathon Midway Milestone list dropped earlier: https://www.royalroad.com/fictions/writathon/6 Mine's all the way on page 14.  Anything reading anything good?
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Apr 16, 2024 18:14
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LLSix posted:SupSup 148: The situation as I read it is that they aren't just random scared people, they're long-term Avowed who were involved in the construction of the bunker, are aware enough of disaster responses to be discussing the Sway relay being used, and so reasonably have enough awareness to know how thorough a death sentence being abandoned to demons/chaos would be (at least from what we can get through the translation). Even so, most of the group is willing to let the Rabbits go (under the thought of it not being worth saving them, but still), it's just the door guard who has the bright idea of taking them as human shields, which seems to prompt another round of loud arguments. A group like that having one person desperate/violent enough to make suggestions the others don't agree with doesn't seem unreasonable to me. (Considering some of the language used, them being on-island members of the non-SAL group previously mentioned wouldn't be impossible either, in which case "being more willing to use force" is sort of the only characterization we have for them.)
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Apr 16, 2024 18:27
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Nick Buntline posted:The situation as I read it is that they aren't just random scared people, they're long-term Avowed who were involved in the construction of the bunker, are aware enough of disaster responses to be discussing the Sway relay being used, and so reasonably have enough awareness to know how thorough a death sentence being abandoned to demons/chaos would be (at least from what we can get through the translation). Even so, most of the group is willing to let the Rabbits go (under the thought of it not being worth saving them, but still), it's just the door guard who has the bright idea of taking them as human shields, which seems to prompt another round of loud arguments. A group like that having one person desperate/violent enough to make suggestions the others don't agree with doesn't seem unreasonable to me. (Considering some of the language used, them being on-island members of the non-SAL group previously mentioned wouldn't be impossible either, in which case "being more willing to use force" is sort of the only characterization we have for them.) SupSup 148: I agree. Using teenage girls as human shields is extreme, but we are talking about a group of people who has already decided that making enemies of all Avowed and Artonan authorities is a reasonable cost to get into a bunker. Also, this is a superhero story. People taking hostages (or at least threatening it) is very in genre. I do agree it's interesting how it contrasted with other sections of this chapter. The Connie portion is an incredibly grounded portrait of a neglectful parent that has become self aware by way of trauma.
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Apr 16, 2024 18:40
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LLSix posted:SupSup 148: Supsup 148: We've seen a lot of real hosed up avowed in this disaster. Remember there were also 3 over at the ambassador's house who were willing to straight up murder 2 people for some loot. Methinks the whole Artonan and System policy of outright declaring distinct tiers of personhood probably don't help to encourage a general love of mankind. Especially not without the tradition of Higher Onus that the Artonans themselves practice for those higher up in the social ladder (at least officially).
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Apr 16, 2024 18:55
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Nitrousoxide posted:Supsup 148: shout-out to the immensely hosed-up moment of the healer just straight up looking at Connie and saying "your nephew picked wrong, you're not worth saving." Can't imagine where some of the Avowed get these ideas from!
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Apr 16, 2024 19:07
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i feel like a CIA agent
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Apr 16, 2024 20:00
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It was a good chapter.
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Apr 16, 2024 20:06
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Sleyca also mentioned in her Patreon comments that she's likely going to take an extended break in the nearish future and put the Patreon on a billing pause. She is hoping she can build up a buffer and stop writing until after midnight in a mad dash to try and get it out on time. It also sounds like we are near a point she'd consider the end of a book.  
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Apr 16, 2024 20:11
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I think an occasional break is an essential component of self-care and good plot planning. I hope she does.
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Apr 16, 2024 22:12
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Nitrousoxide posted:Sleyca also mentioned in her Patreon comments that she's likely going to take an extended break in the nearish future and put the Patreon on a billing pause. She is hoping she can build up a buffer and stop writing until after midnight in a mad dash to try and get it out on time. It also sounds like we are near a point she'd consider the end of a book. I'll see if I can convince Sleyca that a 'once a month' break is better, because I genuinely believe it is
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Apr 17, 2024 07:59
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SupSup 148: I'm not sure if I really like idea of stack-able word-chains, at least as a "mechanic"/narrative device. The main problem they pose is that they have a downside that isn't meaningfully "felt" by the reader. It's sort of like Goku using Kaio-ken, except he can deal with the downside later off-screen. Like in this chapter, Lute seemingly achieved a level of physical strength that is at least as high as a strong Brute's. I don't think any of the S-Rank Brutes or Meisters in their class are able to instantly leap 30 meters (or whatever the distance was). We know there's going to be a downside later when he pays them off, but for a lot of things it's not much of a downside if you can just sleep through it (which I imagine is probably the case for strengthening ones - who cares if you're weak while you're asleep). Hell, why can't a chainer just spend every night doing the negative side to word-chains that aren't a big deal if you're asleep?
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Apr 17, 2024 17:47
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Ytlaya posted:SupSup 148: I'm not sure if I really like idea of stack-able word-chains, at least as a "mechanic"/narrative device. The main problem they pose is that they have a downside that isn't meaningfully "felt" by the reader. It's sort of like Goku using Kaio-ken, except he can deal with the downside later off-screen. SS 148 Yeah, agreed. As shown, wordchains are capable of giving someone astonishing amounts of power on demand, and everyone (including non-Avowed) is capable of using them if given the right instruction. The drawback is easily mitigated by good planning and coordination. Why isn’t everyone in hero school being given intensive instruction on how to cast the ones that give them extra superpowers?
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Apr 17, 2024 18:09
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blastron posted:SS 148 Yeah, agreed. As shown, wordchains are capable of giving someone astonishing amounts of power on demand, and everyone (including non-Avowed) is capable of using them if given the right instruction. The drawback is easily mitigated by good planning and coordination. Why isn’t everyone in hero school being given intensive instruction on how to cast the ones that give them extra superpowers? because improper use of wordchains is a threat to the integrity of the wordchain as a whole? also I think its a big exaggeration to say "everyone" is capable of using them since only lute and alden have been shown as able to cast them in short order
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Apr 17, 2024 18:13
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Ytlaya posted:SupSup 148: I'm not sure if I really like idea of stack-able word-chains, at least as a "mechanic"/narrative device. The main problem they pose is that they have a downside that isn't meaningfully "felt" by the reader. It's sort of like Goku using Kaio-ken, except he can deal with the downside later off-screen. Soup 148:Well, Lute is probably going to be paying back his buffs (and hopefully Emilija's) for like a month, so this level of buffing isn't really sustainable, but clearly a more reasonable level (one buff in each category?) would be quite manageable, which I guess Keiko kinda demonstrates by being a working superhero? Plus it would work better when done by someone like a brute who has high levels of stats to start with. blastron posted:SS 148 Why isn’t everyone in hero school being given intensive instruction on how to cast the ones that give them extra superpowers? I think they mentioned they are advanced curriculum at some point, and are kinda hard to learn if you're not Alden or a chainer, but I imagine part of it is that Aulia has been controlling all the non-intro ones.
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Apr 17, 2024 18:23
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blastron posted:SS 148 Yeah, agreed. As shown, wordchains are capable of giving someone astonishing amounts of power on demand, and everyone (including non-Avowed) is capable of using them if given the right instruction. The drawback is easily mitigated by good planning and coordination. Why isn’t everyone in hero school being given intensive instruction on how to cast the ones that give them extra superpowers? The reason people aren't taught them is that they're generally extremely hard (if not borderline impossible for anything beyond the most basic ones) for non-Artonans to learn. Alden and Lute both have modifications to their finger dexterity. Lute also has modifications to his voice IIRC and his hearing (both via magic and his own music experience) that make him more easily able to reproduce the sounds for the various wordchains. Alden has the gremlin that drastically assists by confirming when he's doing things right or wrong. So they both have modifications or other advantages that make learning wordchains dramatically easier than it would be for other Avowed. And it's also implied that being able to stack a lot of chains it not normal and isn't something anyone can just learn. So for most people, even if they did learn, they'd only be getting the benefits of a single "stack" of each chain they learn. OddObserver posted:Soup 148:Well, Lute is probably going to be paying back his buffs (and hopefully Emilija's) for like a month, so this level of buffing isn't really sustainable, but clearly a more reasonable level (one buff in each category?) would be quite manageable, which I guess Keiko kinda demonstrates by being a working superhero? Plus it would work better when done by someone like a brute who has high levels of stats to start with. Yeah, but emergencies and big fights aren't exactly common events, so he'll always be able to stack them up when necessary, unless he ends up in some non-stop fight that last days or something.
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Apr 17, 2024 18:39
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lute explained it to alden, once. most people are really bad at doing wordchains at all. then of the few who can, most of those are really bad at paying them back. also, it doesn't help that the velras have deliberately obfuscated and mystified the public perception of wordchains on earth. end result, the magic spells that (in theory) any human can use are sort of unpopular.
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Apr 17, 2024 18:44
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SS 148: Lute and Alden have also stated in their POVs that getting multiple chains to land on the same person becomes much harder as they get layered on. Lute is extraordinarily odd in being able to dump so many on at once to achieve S-rank levels of speed and strength for a time. Chaining also has a lot in common with Brandon Sanderson's "Feruchemy" in the Mistborn series. It is similarly a net-zero power, forcing you to pre-pay in opposition to the power you are hoping to get. Want to be able to gain incredible strength? You must first spend weeks enfeebled. Want to be able to go for days without sleep with no ill effects? You'll need to spend a week asleep first. (Almost) all of these payments for the power are done offscreen, but they don't cheapen the ability of the characters.
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Apr 17, 2024 18:45
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re: SS148 in addition to Alden/Lute being much, much, much better positioned to learn and effectively use wordchains than most humans (avowed or no), the whole "misuse of wordchains weakens them" thing, and whatever cultural influence the Velras have had, there are also a few things going on that we don't currently have fantastic insight into and which may explain why Artonans wouldn't be gung-ho about encouraging mass use of powerful wordchains by their subject populations: *how wordchains relate (or don't relate) to 'regular' magic, and how that in turn relates to *whatever is going on with the apparent chaos/magic relationship, which in turn might relate to *how and to what extent wordchains can go wrong beyond just weakening themselves *the quasi- (or actually religious) role wordchains apparently play in some parts of Artonan society
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Apr 17, 2024 19:52
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SS148: There was specifically a Sleyca comment about this:quote:If you're imagining Mass Bestowal as a skill that exists in a universe where the user is unmonitored and beholden to nobody, then it would be completely broken and extremely easy to abuse. But Chainers were made for a universe where that situation doesn't come up very often. They can't really escape from Palace obligations and management unless the System collapses or they're allowed to travel to a planet without one.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:10
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When this discussion came up on the Discord I pointed out that it's a very "why spend time on anything else but powerleveling" take on LitRPG mechanics. (SupSup 148) It appeals to us on the outside looking at min/maxing things, but is probably very different for people actually considering it. As the teachers mentioned, they don't teach wordchains at that level normally because students are expected to be training their skills instead; for most people it's not a question of learning both, but having to divide what limited time they spend training between learning wordchains or practicing their avowed class and leveling up. And if they level up they could put some foundation points to give them better strength and have it all the time, not just when they use a chain, and never have to pay it back. We know a hero program student is expected to level once a year, but leveling up several times a year is stated as possible, so even the hero students are in a situation where they could level faster if they devoted more effort to it. And though it hasn't come up yet, for most people it's probably not a one and done thing. If you learn a strength wordchain you probably have to keep practicing it every week or two or you risk forgetting some parts. And even Alden with all his advantages was having to invest a lot of hours to learn a single chain, for most of his fellow students it would probably be much harder. So learning and then maintaining a decent collection of chains ready would probably be a noticeable hit to most people's leveling rate. What's perhaps more surprising is why non-avowed humans don't use wordchains more. And that probably comes down to availability of both chains and instructors, plus general ignorance about how to tell if a chain even worked leading to a public perception that they're much weaker than they are if you don't have a chainer's advantages. Bremen fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 20:45
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SS148: It is also a point that completely discounts the role good old fashioned power plays in making word chains land. Lute states that no one else in his family can stack over a dozen word chains. His family includes multiple S ranks. But Lute is a double S. His extreme authority is what lets him stack a bunch of the same chain. It is also what let him land the super decrepit sight chain. If greater authority makes it easier to land chains, I would assume that is true for all chains. Which means the non-avowed Normies would have a doubly hard time learning word chains. They lack superhuman enhancements that make the chains easier to perform, and they lack authority to push them into place. Someone said the chains would be more effective on someone who is already a brute, but I don't know if that's true. The chains feel to me more like the add a set amount of strength rather than multiplying what you have.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:42
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(SS148) Plus there's also the implication (in the chapter with Aulia's test) that part of what makes Lute and Alden good at word chains is mindset. Lute takes the words seriously and tries to be genuine about the request, while Alden knows more Authority than any non-Artonian on Earth and therefore does the same. I would expect that's also rare. So add that to the pile of other reasons wordchains are not a standard path to power in the setting.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:50
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Einander posted:(SS148) Lute takes the words seriously and tries to be genuine about the request. (SS148) the superpower of sincerity.
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Apr 18, 2024 07:54
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Sup sup 135 (public) I appreciate the elegance of the (current) threat being the device that submerges things going rogue and attempting to submerge everything
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Apr 18, 2024 09:30
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So... That flyer wasn't for Alden at all, was it. It was for her, and she'd arranged all this on her own. RR Current (135), but it's only been up a few hours so: I think her reaction to him being friends with Stu is that he's more important now because he's friends with... The equivilent of their greatest heroes disabled youngest son, who's known to be reclusive, and has been out of the public eye since the death of his beloved sister, and who is also known to be about the right age to affix. They probably even know that he's about to affix, he's taking time out of school for it after all. Therefore Alden's been upgraded from "keeping Alis/A knight in the 2000s from feeling grief with his human antics" to "keeping the primary, the universes most important hero from feeling grief due to the death of his youngest son (by giving that son something to live for)" Sure, that would pump it up a notch. We really don't have a good equivalent to the Primary in our culture. I think Jesus just before the cross is the closest we have, if Jesus was a real person who was trapped in that perpetual journey forever. Somebody who carries on walking and doing what they must even though they're in terrible pain, to save everyone else (from chaos). The knights are somebody who's put on that crown of thorns and they can never take it off again, and the Primary is the greatest of them. Also I bet if he goes, it also sparks a chain reaction all the way down. Alis has already lost one sibling, losing both seems like it wouldn't be great. Edit: I guess in this metaphor, eventually Alden will be able to bear the cross for them for a time. Nettle Soup fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 11:49
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How does Alden the Collector not have a piece of Lute's and Boe's bodies yet? Major oversight.
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Apr 18, 2024 14:54
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Wittgen posted:SS148: It is also a point that completely discounts the role good old fashioned power plays in making word chains land. Lute states that no one else in his family can stack over a dozen word chains. His family includes multiple S ranks. But Lute is a double S. His extreme authority is what lets him stack a bunch of the same chain. I don't think it's related to total authority, since an older/higher-level S-Rank is going to still have more authority than Lute. There are lots of Velra Chainers with more authority than Lute. There's probably some other dimension related to the "quality" of authority or something, similar to what Gorgon did to Alden's authority. Or it could be unrelated to authority, since wordchains are weird. vvv or something like this, which I think is the most likely reason Einander posted:(SS148) Plus there's also the implication (in the chapter with Aulia's test) that part of what makes Lute and Alden good at word chains is mindset. Lute takes the words seriously and tries to be genuine about the request, while Alden knows more Authority than any non-Artonian on Earth and therefore does the same. I would expect that's also rare. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 20:25
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SupSup 148: I agree that the sincerity matters, but power matters too. I think it's a mistake to assume that just because the other Velras S ranks are older, they must be more powerful than Lute. The dude is twice as strong as a normal newbie S rank. That's the equivalent of like 8 or 9 levels, and it's more or less all concentrated in his two chainer skills. Even if the other Velras S ranks have leveled more than that, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent that authority on sundry conveniences. Lute is very unusual in a number of ways, and I think those unusual traits make it pretty unconcerning on a story level that he can layer chains so heavily.
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Apr 18, 2024 20:41
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SupSup 148: Another simple possible answer to "Why don't chainers superhero/superheroes chain?" would be "Lute is about to spend the next month knocked on his rear end and too weak to even get out of bed while he pays these off".
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Apr 19, 2024 00:09
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Foxfire_ posted:SupSup 148: Another simple possible answer to "Why don't chainers superhero/superheroes chain?" would be "Lute is about to spend the next month knocked on his rear end and too weak to even get out of bed while he pays these off". Yeah, it was mentioned earlier somewhere between like chapters 100-110. Your average person is not good at learning how to chain, word chains take a long time to learn even if it's possible for that person to learn at all, the word chains function maybe one time in ten unless you're very good at them and most people don't like paying for the consequences. Also, lots of chains gently caress with your judgement and a hero needs to have their head on straight during a crisis and many of the best chains have gatekeepers. That's an enormous amount of hurdles to jump when you could be learning how to use your powers better and at minimum you feel like poo poo afterwards. Avowed powers, though people don't know it, are on autopilot. Spellchains actually take time, talent, sacrifice and access to trainers.
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Apr 19, 2024 07:06
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Presumably someone with more to sacrifice could pay off chains faster than someone who can only reduce themselves from the normal-human-baseline
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Apr 19, 2024 07:15
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^^^ I'm kind of curious about this, actually, given what we now know about foundation points being a fundamentally magical thing that changes how you interact with the world, rather than literally "changing your body to be stronger/faster." It feels like too much of a "loophole" defeating the conceptual purpose if an S-Rank Brute could pay off strengthening wordchains by just becoming "somewhat less strong" for a few hours. Magic seems to "care" about that sort of thing. Though that raises the question of whether such word-chains add some modification on top of whatever you already have from being Avowed. Maybe a Strength Brute using a strengthening word-chain just wouldn't experience any benefit unless it would have been enough to make them stronger than they already are? Wittgen posted:SupSup 148: I agree that the sincerity matters, but power matters too. I think it's a mistake to assume that just because the other Velras S ranks are older, they must be more powerful than Lute. The dude is twice as strong as a normal newbie S rank. That's the equivalent of like 8 or 9 levels, and it's more or less all concentrated in his two chainer skills. SupSup 148: A good counterexample of why I doubt raw power/authority is related to being able to stack wordchains is the fact that Hazel could stack a bunch before she even became Avowed (and as someone who would only become a B!). And just conceptually, I don't think it really makes sense for "raw power" to be the dictating factor when it comes to stacking wordchains, since the word-chains themselves aren't coming from your own power and you can stack them on other people (so it's not like it's related to Lute being able to personally "sustain" a large number of stacks due to his own strength, since he could put a bunch on Emilija, the F-rank Rabbit). The Chainer class gives him his Skills that let him do different powerful things with wordchains that non-chainers can't, and his personal power is used for that, but the word-chains themselves don't require your own power/authority to happen. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Apr 19, 2024 |
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Apr 19, 2024 17:32
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Ytalya, you're mixing some things up. SupSup 148Hazel never stacked a dozen plus of the same chain. She knew a ton of different chains and would use multiple with similar effects, and we saw in the Manon murder segment her stacking a third (or so) of the same chain. But nothing like what we are seeing Lute do. Hazel failing to succeed at the decrepit chain while Lute succeeded is extremely strong evidence that power matters. Perception and precise execution also matter, but power does too. I think we have seen the spellcasting side of this with Alden. He noted that he can mess up hand gestures or authority flexing a bit and still successfully cast a spell. I bet he's making up for the faults with raw power. SupSup149: So hanging out with Alden is an important task. Neat.
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Apr 19, 2024 18:27
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SS Patreon: i wonder if Alden gets another commendation out of this? Or rather, I wonder what the criteria is for commendations. Carting an injured person around at personal risk seems like it should qualify for something, but maybe no chaos no star? I hope to get some reasoning either way, just for worldbuilding.
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Apr 19, 2024 22:54
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