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Death to America. Death to the Great Satan.
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Sep 21, 2017 16:36
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Democrazy posted:You aren't really great at this whole democratic part of democratic socialism, are you? People can say whatever they want, but there is no obligation to take them seriously if they have no credibility. That is democracy.
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Sep 21, 2017 16:38
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Rigel posted:Literally hundreds of bills are proposed every year that get sent straight to the legislative waste basket. The media doesn't cover the Dem legislative proposals because they are not in the majority and the chairmen of the relevant committees don't schedule hearings. You may need to educate yourself on how this poo poo works. THE OPTICS!
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Sep 21, 2017 16:40
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El Pollo Blanco posted:This is disingenuous whataboutism at its best, and does not address anything I have said. Your "criticism" is only valid if you present a better alternative, which you do not, on account of cherry picking which voices get to be heard and which get to be silenced.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:41
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Why do the "we can't focus too much on the economy when we should be fixing racism" literally never talk at all about how to fix racism.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:46
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I'm saying that in order to fix both at the same time, you need a big tent of leftism that embraces the concerns of a lot of different groups. The current progressive movement is as a big tent as it gets. Judging its overall dynamics on the words of a small number of misguided reductionists is clearly not arguing in good faith. Imagine if the whole Democratic party had to make an address every time one of their supporters said something stupid. There is clearly a double standard where the progressives have to apologize for every misstep of anybody vaguely associated with them, while the Dems get the benefit of the doubt even after decades of screwing over their constituents. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 08:54
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Main Paineframe posted:What's wrong with apologizing? Absolutely nothing, except when people disingenuously demand others to apologize for actions of unrelated actors as a way of remove their credibility - again and again and again, no matter how many times the accused party had already made amends. Posters who insist on the collective guilt of all leftists are just trying to shut down a segment of the population by making any discussion they are part of about their supposed atonement, not about issues.
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Sep 22, 2017 15:28
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Koalas March posted:What segment of the population are they trying to shut down, and who are to shut them down in the first place? I feel like you're being really vague on purpose, in order to obscure your real opinion. I'm saying that progressives are held to a much higher standard of responsibility for what "their guys" do than mainstream Dems - and that this is just a cheap debate tactic to dodge any consequential conversation, or to make the other person look back by insinuating their association with idiots. I thought that was an obvious point, since it comes up again and again in other threads.
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Sep 22, 2017 15:46
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Casey Finnigan posted:The point he's making and the point I'm making is that it's fine to have people apologize for racial missteps in the past. What doesn't make sense it to make this demand specifically of the left wing of the Democratic Party, which to my knowledge (and if I'm wrong tell me) has not been more wrong on racial issues than the center wing has been. I think either you make these demands of apology from everyone who has had a nasty record on race (good) or you don't (bad). You don't single out one group (using the issue as a political tool). Exactly.
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Sep 22, 2017 15:56
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Radish posted:From what I've read on charter schools they are a weird issue in terms of support. Like when you are a parent and have a kid and you don't have time for politicians to VERY slowly fix the educational system a decent charter school in your area is the best option. By the time things are fixed it could be a decade or never. A parent can absolutely support charter schools because they need immediate results for their kids and sometimes that's the only option they have if their district is massively underfunded. For politicians however there is really no excuse for pushing them over fixing the problems with our deteriorating educational system, especially when if you look at the results they aren't statistically better than public schools. By fixing I mean actually fixing and not bullshit like allowing Republican to destroy it slower or promising changes the smart people in charge will do if we just keep waiting forever. The same can be said about desegregation, can't it. People can have individual, selfish motive to block changes that are in the aggregate for the better, that's why the state exists - to override the individual motive, and establish a level playing field by saying no, you can't FYGM, you won't even get an option to FYGM. Though true, this may be a tough sell!
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Sep 22, 2017 16:06
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Majorian posted:No, you are correct, McCain is genuinely terrible. His tumor is causing weird spurts of non-shittiness, but he's still the same fuckwad. uh, didn't he torpedo the healthcare bill because it wasn't radical (bad) enough
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Sep 22, 2017 21:31
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Sep 22, 2017 21:59
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Volkerball posted:I'll take McCain over some mouthpiece voting straight Dem or Republican any day of the week. I don't agree with him on most issues, but with how much influence lobbyists and special interests have in politics today, somebody who stands up for their own values is a breath of fresh air, even if I disagree with a lot of them. And this isn't about the tumor. He's taken on the entire Republican party before. He just clearly isn't sold on the last few Republican attempts to replace ACA, and he's not a shill who will pretend he is. Well, you DO love bombing folks.
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Sep 22, 2017 22:00
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Sep 22, 2017 22:08
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Volkerball posted:Talk to pretty much any Syrian refugee and they have a better view of McCain than they do of the left, because he stood up for them, so the neocon criticism doesn't carry much water for me coming from y'all. lol, you are seriously going there, aren't you. does your lust for war have any boundaries at all? ultimately no American politician did anything whatsoever for syrian refugees, btw
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Sep 22, 2017 22:13
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boner confessor posted:what data have you seen to disprove this? could you be interpreting your lack of knowledge on the subject as confirmation that your assumptions are correct? Clinton is quite disliked by the young section of the POC demographics in any poll out there.
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Sep 22, 2017 22:27
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Shadin posted:I love how Hillary not only gets blamed for her husband, but also everyone likes to ignore that Tough on Crime was what the public was frothing at the mouth for in the early 90's and even Bill Clinton himself has gone back and said their approach was a mistake. Well, it's fine then! (too bad their policy still informs public discourse, and is the foundation of any major justice concept, including what the Dems offer. Hillary is still sponsored by the same private prisons that benefited from her husband's policies that she championed.
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Sep 22, 2017 22:28
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Shadin posted:You're right, it is fine for politicians to be able to admit they did something wrong, you know, like an adult. Also, the American people who were pushing for tougher crime laws in our Representative Republic have a little blame to shoulder for the missteps in the 90s as well. Except she has not admitted to be wrong. She still accepts money from the companies that are at the crux of America's justice crisis, and is totally unapologetic about this. In her latest book she went on to defend the justice reform and say it was "unrecognizable" in the words of its critics. She did the least performative apology dance possible, while continuing to contribute to the problem. Also here's a terrible gif to show my reply is to be taken seriously 
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Sep 22, 2017 22:34
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Nanomashoes posted:Morality doesn't work like that. But you see if you define the value of human life as 100 then giving 1,000,000 people a single unit of positive change each outweighs 10,000 deaths of political prisoners.
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Sep 22, 2017 23:22
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Jaxyon posted:Oddly enough, the people who bring up "Hillary's slaves" never seem to be also talking about Louisana's state legislature slaves, which continues to this day. Hillary, claims to be progressive, unlike the other people, and she is much higher profile. If any other Dem candidate for presidency appears with a history of abusing prisoners for profit, I'm sure they will be called out as well.
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Sep 22, 2017 23:24
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Volkerball posted:How am I supposed to just cite conversations with Syrians when what Syrians talk about for you is a mysterious gray area where anything could be happening? I brought up the articles because you clearly don't have more than a surface knowledge of the situation, and are unaware of some of the most basic facts, so I'm having to dumb it down for you 101 style. Talking to Syrians is your homework assignment. Are you now claiming you are the moral compass of Syria because you talked to a Syrian once?
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Sep 22, 2017 23:25
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You are right, CIA blacksites are totally cool.
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Sep 22, 2017 23:25
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Koalas March posted:Does anyone have a source to verify if it was involuntary labor or a voluntary program in the first place? There is no such a thing as a voluntary program in the prison system. The agency of prisoners is a matter of manipulation by outside forces, an illusion that serves the abusive structures of prison society. Anyway, yes, it was "voluntary" as much as voluntary can exist in a US prison, meaning the selection of inmates was the product of favors, violence and humiliation of the people competing for the few spots to escape the hellhole in which they found themselves.
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Sep 22, 2017 23:28
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A bird in the cage has the freedom to sit on whichever perch he wants.
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Sep 22, 2017 23:53
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Sep 22, 2017 23:54
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Nevvy Z posted:Hillary's real crime was not undoing all the horrors of the prison industrial complex. Actually being actively involved in making the prison system worse.
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Sep 22, 2017 23:56
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Now some rear end in a top hat is going to say "Actually, American prisons are better than the Dickensian justice system" Kill USpol and everybody in it, ISIS is the light
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Sep 22, 2017 23:57
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boner confessor posted:she truly was america's worst president Yeah, she would have been, on account of her decades long history of associating with all the culprits of social ills. Mustached Demon posted:Hillary should go on a murder rampage freeing us from lovely cops and the entire profiteering class of private prisons. Unlikely, seeing as it was her job to protect them.
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Sep 22, 2017 23:59
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Owning slaves is bad, imho.
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Sep 23, 2017 00:18
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:In a just world Hillary would have won by Reagan/Mondale levels and come into office with a Dem controlled Congress. That's what it looked like it might be as late as October. But obviously in retrospect that was never a real possibility. In a just world everybody would be long dead.
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Sep 24, 2017 00:15
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Main Paineframe posted:Why is everyone trying to come up with new and innovative words for "lying"? Seriously, "performative wokeness"? Aren't there more important things to do in life than make up new words to insult your political opponents with? "Performative" isn't a new term. It is generally preferable to keep the debate slightly more nuanced than "thing good, or thing bad".
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Sep 24, 2017 00:18
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Sephyr posted:Heck, just look at the SPD getting stomped in Germany. If the British COnservatives had the same policies and track record as the CDU cabinet, they would probably also trounce the Labor.
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Sep 24, 2017 19:56
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Ratoslov posted:Why wouldn't they? The leftists in this thread are bragging about how there's nothing liberals could reasonably do to make them happy. Why on Earth would the liberals want to be nice to them? Because they are wrong about everything, and the only way they could ever rectify their political credentials is if they stopped being liberals.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:18
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I suppose talking about healthcare destroys the ACA much like shopping around for a new car causes your old one to explode.
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Sep 24, 2017 22:25
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Hellblazer187 posted:But like, over a quarter of the caucus has co-sponsored the MfA bill. Some haven't said anything about it, and some have come out against it. But it seems like the single largest group of Dems saying anything about MfA are in support of it. So it's really not either fair or accurate to say "the dems are speaking out against single payer." It's fair to say that the party leadership is more conservative on healthcare reform than their constituents, and that it took a lot of effort to get even a minority of them to support a purely symbolic gesture with a huge deal of public approval and no associated risks (meaning there is no guarantee they won't chicken out if there is a serious proposal in the future).
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Sep 24, 2017 22:30
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boner confessor posted:do you have a specific poll in mind? because americans are generally vaguely in favor of healthcare for all, whatever that means at that moment, but get lost in the details Was that question formulated on purpose to get the most intense negative kneejerk response from the average respondent?
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Sep 24, 2017 22:33
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boner confessor posted:not sufficiently disdainful of the democrats, or weirdly accelerationist. basically what the bad thread was meant to contain You workshop some ideas to rationalize denying healthcare to the people, and they all latch onto it like a pack of jackals, it's PC gone mad, I tell you boner confessor posted:see what i mean with the two above replies. you really can't advocate for pragmatism right now without being labeled a traitor or a troll, even if there's only a few shades of nuance between the position you state and the position someone else argues *standing on top of the Ozymandias statue, its features eroded with sand and crumbled away* You children need to accept that fixing this thing is pragmatic, and if you go and build your own statue, you should know you are just making this one worse for everybody else. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 07:10
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boner confessor posted:i dont think you understand who curtis lemay was and what he was all about. turns out he was completely in favor of incinerating civilians Dissent is worthless if it is based entirely on some weird mental construct of "pragmatism" that is very obviously detached from reality.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:01
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Condiv posted:hey guys, does this sound familiar? maybe something like massive unemployment in the rust belt with centrists deciding to focus on the rich parts of america instead? Except at least under Merkel the difference between East and West shrunk significantly. 
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Sep 25, 2017 09:16
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Condiv posted:looks to me like the median got hit p hard and is just now catching up to 1991 wages. yeah, the average in the east improved, but the average is effected more by outliers like the ultra-rich and it's not surprising they'd be doing better under a centrist regime Merkel won for the first time in 2005, which is when the curve turns upward. Before that it was bona fide centrist third wayist Schröder who oversaw the stagnation, if not an outright downward trend. That fucker should be getting all the hate instead of Merkel.
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Sep 25, 2017 09:25
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