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Another warmonger chestnut: we can't actually judge anyone for anything ever, because we accidentally stepped on a snail and killed it once.
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Sep 30, 2017 19:47
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tapine posted:Another warmonger chestnut: we can't actually judge anyone for anything ever, because we accidentally stepped on a snail and killed it once. sorry to hear you are an orphan
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Sep 30, 2017 19:49
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Timby posted:I took an America Since 1945 class in my senior year of high school, and one line I'll never forget--I forget the source, but it was some old documentary or video, I took the class in 2001 - 02--was the way Mr. Nagis repeated, "And then there was Tet. Tet was like the roof falling in." It makes me think what a Vietnam-size war would look like with today's media environment. I'm mostly talking out of my rear end, but even at their height ISIS could field what, 5,000 fighters at most? And I think the vast majority of firefights that US forces engage the Taliban in consists of only a couple dozen fighters.
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Sep 30, 2017 21:01
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This whole thing has me extremely terrified that stunningly amoral villains currently running the US will do their utmost to pursue a path of war with either North Korea or Iran. It's not only that no lessons were learned, it's that Republican politicians and government figures are proud of their refusal to learn anything about history, and their rejection of reality. It also makes me furious at boosters of war - not the cynical military-industrial-complex bastards, but the sincere ones. The ones who really believe it's about freedom, and not profit and ego. They WANT troops to die. They want sacrifices. It's absolutely chilling.
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Oct 1, 2017 00:19
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Spatula City posted:This whole thing has me extremely terrified that stunningly amoral villains currently running the US will do their utmost to pursue a path of war with either North Korea or Iran. It's not only that no lessons were learned, it's that Republican politicians and government figures are proud of their refusal to learn anything about history, and their rejection of reality. If you want some hope, just think of how organized and prevalent the anti-war movement was 50+ years ago and then think of how much more organized it would be in 2017.
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Oct 1, 2017 00:48
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Mahoning posted:If you want some hope, just think of how organized and prevalent the anti-war movement was 50+ years ago and then think of how much more organized it would be in 2017.
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Oct 1, 2017 01:21
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Mahoning posted:If you want some hope, just think of how organized and prevalent the anti-war movement was 50+ years ago and then think of how much more organized it would be in 2017. Seriously? Were we watching the same documentary? I got the opposite feeling entirely. Do you really believe people would give enough of a poo poo nowadays to leave their bubble?
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Oct 1, 2017 18:18
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hey hey, lbj, how many bubbles you blew today
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Oct 1, 2017 18:34
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There actually was a resistance to the Bush wars, they were just covered up and systematically downplayed by the right-wing media.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:50
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I mean Jesus Christ Donald loving Trump is president. America learned nothing from any of this.
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Oct 1, 2017 20:37
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Harton posted:I mean Jesus Christ Donald loving Trump is president. America learned nothing from any of this.
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Oct 1, 2017 21:14
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tapine posted:This thread is case in point, look at people tripping over themselves to justify waging war. Part of the reason we can never learn anything from our failed, devastating conflicts is the dire inability of anyone to indict the people actually fighting them. No one here has attempted to justify the Vietnam War. Not a single person. Quit making poo poo up, we can all read this thread.
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Oct 1, 2017 21:24
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tapine posted:This thread is case in point, look at people tripping over themselves to justify waging war. Part of the reason we can never learn anything from our failed, devastating conflicts is the dire inability of anyone to indict the people actually fighting them. Imagine if leadership faced any consequences for their actions.
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Oct 1, 2017 22:32
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Speaking as someone who identifies as left wing enough to be a near socialist, some people in this thread are acting like that insufferable high school kid who just read Zinn and now can't stop telling everyone who'll listen about the evils of Amerikkka.
Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 22:39
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Every episode starts with the words "Major support by" and then it just lists war criminals.
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Oct 1, 2017 22:53
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Solkanar512 posted:No one here has attempted to justify the Vietnam War. Not a single person. Haha this. No one is loving justifying this broken rear end poo poo war.
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Oct 1, 2017 23:53
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Shima Honnou posted:Every episode starts with the words "Major support by" and then it just lists war criminals. Besides the Koch brothers..(and that is dubious. lovely as they are I don't know if they have ever pushed for war funding) who are you talking about? People in this thread need to knock off this poo poo. If you have a hot take or point, fine, but make an effort post justifying your position. Also tapine. Knock it off dude. Either argue in good faith or piss off. No one in this thread has ever defended the actions of the US and putting words in people's mouths is a total Trump move. Getting back to the ACTUAL documentary I still haven't finished it, but hope to this week. I'm really curious how Ken Burns handles the Paris Peace Accords and the subsequent spring 1975 offensive. And of course water gate and how it sealed the fate of the South. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 00:12
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soggybagel posted:Haha this. No one is loving justifying this broken rear end poo poo war. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 2, 2017 01:51
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Speaking as someone who identifies as left wing enough to be a near socialist, some people in this thread are acting like that insufferable high school kid who just read Zinn and now can't stop telling everyone who'll listen about the evils of Amerikkka. It's also interesting to note how dismissive everyone has been of the idea that maybe adults should be able to make intelligent choices, especially when the lives of millions are at stake. You badmouth an unpopular war with one breath and make flippant non-responses to people who question the social and ideological apparatus that continues to allow wars like that to happen. And I haven't even gotten to indicting the real cause of imperialist war: capitalism. But it's pretty clear none of you are ready for that. tapine fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 01:51
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You're too smart for us. Go away.
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Oct 2, 2017 02:05
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Millions of people lay dead, guys. Maybe we should delve a little deeper than the documentary and examine the rhetorical causes for wars like Vietnam. I guess we'd have to examine our own beliefs and not impotently shake our fists at people like McNamara for that though.
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Oct 2, 2017 02:09
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Besides the Koch brothers..(and that is dubious. lovely as they are I don't know if they have ever pushed for war funding) who are you talking about? People in this thread need to knock off this poo poo. If you have a hot take or point, fine, but make an effort post justifying your position. It's a joke on how the first thing in every episode is the words "Major support for the Vietnam War was provided by" and then a list of major donors, the idea of the joke being that they are the supporters of the Vietnam War the war and not "The Vietnam War" the documentary.
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Oct 2, 2017 03:06
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 One thing these docs will never discuss is how the US military pulled thousands of young women out of the countryside and into cities it controlled, then coerced them into selling sex to invading American troops. You might get individual stories from individual troops -- because they are extremely common -- of Vietnamese prostitution, but there is no discussion on how the sex infrastructure had to physically be born into existence, scale up to serve so many men. Because we don't address things like this, that the military is a international rape engine, America will do it every invasion. All the women in Abu Ghraib were found pregnant, all due around the same time. If there is an invasion of North Korea, thousands of Koreans will re-enter service as comfort women against their will.
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Oct 2, 2017 05:09
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The documentary literally talks about the massive urbanization of South Vietnam during the war and how many women went into prostitution because of all the American military personnel. Are you people even watching this thing or do you think it's 18 hours of F-4 napalm attacks set to Let The Bodies Hit The Floor?
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Oct 2, 2017 05:16
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Mofabio posted:
Even the so-called heroes of World War II raped their way across France. It also happens to the women serving in our military. To call it systematic would be an understatement.
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Oct 2, 2017 05:24
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tapine posted:Attitudes like this are case in point, and why we'll continue to destroy nations forever. Watching this gave me really great respect for people who got the draft notices and either registered as CO or straight up told the army to gently caress off, which is arguably the bravest thing one could do in that situation, but the amount of cultural momentum, especially for someone who lived in a primarily pro-war community, would make it really hard for some people to say no. When saying 'no' could destroy your entire support system and make your life a living hell, and saying 'yes' could destroy your life and sent you out to fight a war no one likes, 'intelligence' goes out the window for decision making. also, regarding protest now vs during the Vietnam era, the biggest action happened in a year that saw the assassination of two incredibly beloved figures who spoke for peace, as well as two incredibly contentious primaries and an even more contentious election. 2016 didn't get us there, and 2017 hasn't yet and likely won't, but imagine a 2020 where Kasich challenges Trump, the democratic race is wide open, Trump keeps Trumping poo poo up, and a few horrible acts of violence happen stateside (or even internationally; remember that there was lots of unrest all across the world in '68), we could see something resembling that year. god, imagine the police violence in Chicago during the Democratic primary in '68, but with police who are equipped with the loving riot gear they have these days. they could crush an entire crowd under their tank treads. edit: they play The Weight over footage of the Chicago riots which sounds really on point, but I can't take that song seriously ever since I learned that it was written after a bunch of counterculture kids in LA protested a curfew because they were rocking too loud and bothering businesses on the Sunset Strip. Like, the curfew was stupid but it's like the most LA White People in 1966 thing. DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 06:46
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Dinosaurs! posted:The documentary literally talks about the massive urbanization of South Vietnam during the war and how many women went into prostitution because of all the American military personnel. Are you people even watching this thing or do you think it's 18 hours of F-4 napalm attacks set to Let The Bodies Hit The Floor? Yeah, seriously, they have a veteran literally say a refugee in Hue offered him and his squad sex for some C-rations, and they took her up on it. It's not really a celebration of it at all and they talk several times about people driven into refugee camps and/or cities and villages bombed or shelled. If you want a nonstop description of atrocities, I recommend reading or listening to a book, Shoot Anything That Moves. That might be more what some of the people are looking for.
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Oct 2, 2017 10:39
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tapine posted:And I haven't even gotten to indicting the real cause of imperialist war: capitalism. But it's pretty clear none of you are ready for that. Zane fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 15:33
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Dinosaurs! posted:The documentary literally talks about the massive urbanization of South Vietnam during the war and how many women went into prostitution because of all the American military personnel. Are you people even watching this thing or do you think it's 18 hours of F-4 napalm attacks set to Let The Bodies Hit The Floor? Im not really sure what people want these days. It's pretty scathing about pretty much everything about it, like having a poor country put together the fifth largest army in the world, to the point that most of the US military aid served to stock up the post war state's equipment.
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Oct 2, 2017 15:55
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I'm going to try to save this thread (but that is feeling like a lost cause). I hope to finish the last two episodes tonight, and I've been wondering where on the Ken Burns Pantheon people would rank this Documentary? I personally think this is one of his finest, though not above "The Civil War" but there are many Ken Burns Docs I haven't seen yet.
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Oct 2, 2017 21:47
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Number 1 for me.
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Oct 3, 2017 01:34
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Solaris 2.0 posted:I'm going to try to save this thread (but that is feeling like a lost cause). His documentary on baseball is really neat, but baseball is just a fun hobby. Some people link it to historical events and times in their lives, but if baseball went away, our lives wouldn't be that different - and I say that as someone who loves baseball. This doc does an amazing job of illustrating a decades-long ongoing mistake, where most of the country seemed fine with young men being tossed into a blender, because it was "right", for some reason. No one in Washington who ordered men into battle were ever in any danger. Things have not only not changed, they've gotten worse.
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Oct 3, 2017 02:26
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Solaris 2.0 posted:I hope to finish the last two episodes tonight, and I've been wondering where on the Ken Burns Pantheon people would rank this Documentary? I personally think this is one of his finest, though not above "The Civil War" but there are many Ken Burns Docs I haven't seen yet. It's up there, I've seen Prohibition and Jazz as well, but I'd put Jazz in a class of its own. As a contrast to Civil War, it's shattering. There isn't the historiography of the Civil War doco that tends to flatten out the passions and contradictions of that war. In The Vietnam War there's much less protection from its rawness, which is kind of ironic to me. Imagine if England decided that slavery was a dominoes kind of geopolitical problem (which they kind of did, in a sporadic way but that's another story), and the South got their wish, but it ended in a similar way. It might be framed entirely from the English point of view, just like the Vietnam War is framed largely from an American one.
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Oct 4, 2017 03:40
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John Kerry is a goddamn American hero and one of the (many, many) reasons George W Bush is going to hell is that he implicitly sat back and let a bunch of rear end in a top hat fuckers try to smear his good name during the 2004 election. (i just got to his speech to congress, in case you couldn't guess.)
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Oct 4, 2017 04:13
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Finished this up over the weekend. Even the wife was glued to the tv and she hates poo poo like this. We were both tearing up when the vets were taking about the Vietnam memorial. This might be my favorite Ken Burns documentary, but that might just be because it was the most recent one I watched. Dude is a national treasure.
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Oct 4, 2017 04:18
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Harton posted:Finished this up over the weekend. Even the wife was glued to the tv and she hates poo poo like this. We were both tearing up when the vets were taking about the Vietnam memorial. This might be my favorite Ken Burns documentary, but that might just be because it was the most recent one I watched. Dude is a national treasure. I teared up at the end with the scenes of American veterans back in Vietnam, talking with their former Vietnamese adversaries and both sides seeking some sort of peace. Also the scenes of Vietnamese daily life at the end to the tune of "Let it Be" really got to me. Hell of an ending.
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Oct 4, 2017 04:40
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Solaris 2.0 posted:I teared up at the end with the scenes of American veterans back in Vietnam, talking with their former Vietnamese adversaries and both sides seeking some sort of peace. Also the scenes of Vietnamese daily life at the end to the tune of "Let it Be" really got to me. Hell of an ending. Yeah I didn't really stop once I started, the whole episode was a tearjerker. The best praise I can give this series is that me and the wife sat down after putting the baby to sleep and I gave her the remote. She immediately went to the pbs app to start the next episode. I mean goddamn my wife of all loving people, I was shocked. Any other day it would have been some cooking show or something HGTV related. It's that loving good!
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Oct 4, 2017 04:54
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I did a thing. It's an Apple Music playlist of all of the songs from the individual episode lists on the PBS website, 96 in total (it's missing maybe two songs, but one of them is Little Drummer Boy and gently caress that song). two things adjacent to this series that might be of interest to you all: If the two minutes of talk about Jane Fonda were of any interest to you, and/or you really dig Hollywood history, my favorite storytelling podcast You Must Remember This just finished a 14 episode series about the lives and careers of Jane Fonda and Jean Seberg, and how they were affected/ruined by their support of social causes; Fonda is largely remembered for her war protesting and Seberg for supporting the Black Panther Party financially. Aside from the episode that goes into detail about Jane's time protesting and in North Vietnam (that picture that everyone remembers of Hanoi Jane in the seat of the anti-aircraft gun? taken after Fonda had a few drinks), it's not really about Vietnam, but the latter half is very much about social issues in the 1960s (and if you're looking for something a little more grim from the same time, the best series of YMRT is easily the series about Charles Manson in Hollywood, which is some of the best storytelling I've ever heard in a podcast). last night my local PBS station showed a very cool panel discussion with four Iowans (i am from iowa) who were in Vietnam, an officer, an advisor/ground trooper, and two South Vietnamese military officers who were imprisoned for 10+ years after Saigon fell who were relocated to Iowa after their release. It was very interesting to get perspectives that weren't quite so edited, and the best moments were the two American men both agreeing that they see the problems of Vietnam repeating themselves again in the middle east (and both of them definitely agreed that Vietnam was probably not worth the lives lost there), as well as one of those men having to stop in the middle of a story because it was just too much. He was visibly shaking during the whole program because of Parkinson's (thought to be brought on by exposure to Agent Orange), and he was telling a story after being asked about the stresses of being in a firefight, and it was heartbreaking to see the mental impact war has on a person even half a century on. quote:Dean Borg – Moderator: Dean Borg is a U.S. Air Force veteran as well as a long-time reporter and Iowa Public Television host. Borg spent time reporting from Vietnam for Cedar Rapids radio and television stations during the war. He covered protests on the University of Iowa campus and was in Paris during the Paris Peace Talks. Also, a fun little aside about that program, featuring the most Iowan way of expressing displeasure with the media and your fellow Iowans: the sternly-written newspaper op-ed. The Des Moines Register posted:Iowa Public Television is about to broadcast the new documentary by Ken Burns on the Vietnam War. As a prelude to these broadcasts IPTV is hosting an event Sept. 10 called “The Iowa Experience: Vietnam.” Veterans of that war are invited to this “special event in honor of their courage and sacrifice." The Des Moines Register posted:Jeff Falks Sept. 8 letter to the editor "Iowa's Vietnam experience included war opposition" really got my dander up. Of course — let's remember those protesters that sacrificed so much. I see them all the time while they are so proudly wearing their hats that say "Vietnam War protester." You've got a lot to be proud of; we couldn't have lost the war without you.
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Oct 4, 2017 05:33
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One day I hope Ken Burns does a documentary on the AK-47 and all the wild adventures that gun model has been a part of on this crazy planet.
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Oct 4, 2017 06:03
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I remember hating Jazz because of th way it ended and its warm white classicist take on what "jazz is". I cant remember what the bulk of the series was like though. I loved Baseball, Civil War, and I really loved what I saw of the Jackie Robinson doc and the Roosevelts one too. If Vietnam isn't the 'best' its in the conversation.
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Oct 4, 2017 06:33
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