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Epi Lepi
Oct 29, 2009

You can hear the voice
Telling you to Love
It's the voice of MK Ultra
And you're doing what it wants

NinjaDebugger posted:

If players invested in something are regularly failing checks you're setting difficulties too high, regardless of edition.

Played the beginner box so I didn’t set anything.

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MMAgCh
Aug 15, 2001
I am the poet,
The prophet of the pit
Like a hollow-point bullet
Straight to the head
I never missed...you
Is that the Topaz Championship one? It looks like virtually none of the TNs in that adventure are higher than 2, so if people with decent skill/ring values for the checks in question still failed them consistently, they either had very bad luck or were somehow getting their rolls wrong, I'd think.

Epi Lepi
Oct 29, 2009

You can hear the voice
Telling you to Love
It's the voice of MK Ultra
And you're doing what it wants

MMAgCh posted:

Is that the Topaz Championship one? It looks like virtually none of the TNs in that adventure are higher than 2, so if people with decent skill/ring values for the checks in question still failed them consistently, they either had very bad luck or were somehow getting their rolls wrong, I'd think.

You misunderstand. The issue was that because of exploding dice we had multiple instances where characters who did not specialize in "thing" performed better at that challenge in the Championship, than the characters that did. Maybe we had an outlier day but it happened enough that no one felt like their character build mattered in the slightest.

EverettLO
Jul 2, 2007
I'm a lurker no more


It's out and man is it ever D&D. Combat is mostly unchanged and higher level characters will become D&D-style hit point sponges.

Playable races: Human, Naga, Nezumi, Mazoku(?), Specter(??), Tengu and a few types of animal Yokai

Classes: Bushi, Duelist, Courtier, Shinobi, Ritualist, Pilgrim, and Acolyte. The Ritualist is just the shugenja, the Pilgrim is a normal monk and the Acolyte are the weird monks, like the Togashi order. All the classes have third level mostly-clan-based archetypes to cover all the fiddly schools.

Normal 5e backgrounds are mostly given over to family ties, except for ronin, monks and commoners.

Way more information on non-Rokugan portions of the world than I'm used to seeing in L5R releases. They clearly had a lot more in mind for expanding the setting than I was aware of.

Quite a lot of new feats to cover the setting better, which I appreciate.

Ritualist magic works basically off a spell point system called Favor. More Favor used can make spells more powerful. Martials and monks get spell like Techniques that also use a point system, this time called Focus. On first glance it certainly appears to be a better balance of martials vs casters than base 5e.

Absolutely fantastic art direction, probably the best overall production of any edition yet.


It's really D&D, though. No more deadly, deadly duels to fear.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
beautiful book, I hope the artists and writers got paid a lot, but boy is this just a waste of L5R. Like, I enjoy reading about the non-Rokugan parts of the world that wouldn't be touched on normally but it came at the cost of basically removing everything L5R about L5R to make D&D: Kinda-Japanese Fantasy Flavored.

I'm sure it'll be fun, 5e is fun with a good group and this is a unique setting for it that was done well for what it was, but boy is my group gonna just keep playing the last edition L5R because this adds nothing interesting.

Terratina
Jun 30, 2013
I appreciate the approach of trying to make things more accessible and cultural friendly. As well as actually interesting martial classes in D&D.

But some of the lore change up baffles me and the words on guidance will never reach the ears of those who need to listen to it, written as it is.

"Drop your armor class!" Ugh.

Also there's taking Amateratsu, the big goddess in Japanese mythology and a symbol of purity, and changing it up in that she now has had an affair with a Lord of Tian Guo.

But I suppose it's okay because she's just Lady Sun now.

While other deities get the 10 foot pole approach. No Ebisu, just the Fortune of Hard Work.

Two extremes right there.

Terratina fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Aug 7, 2022

HidaO-Win
Jun 5, 2013

"And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"
In addition to D&Ding it up, they have changed the setting substantially.

They've removed honour as a concept in the setting as honour, ritual suicide and stoicism are harmful archetypes established by Western media that must be avoided. I mean, somebody better go tell Japan that one.

They've replaced L5Rs Bushido with Confucianism.

They've removed some Japanese language terms and instead put in 21st-century Mandarin pronunciations.

They've gone further along FFGs track of changing Rokugan from a melange of Asian Mythology to just being Fantasy Japan. They have then introduced Fantasy China and Fantasy Korea next door.
Rokugan is no longer xenophobic but instead welcomes outsiders.

I thought having a bit of distance from the real world was an advantage in terms of what you could do in the game and as a result what parallels wouldn't get drawn. WFRP is set in a Fantasy Holy Roman Empire, but it has a ton of anachronisms and other stuff tossed in that totally muddies the waters. Rokugan is not Japan was a virtue of L5R, not a vice.

Species are Humans, Naga, Nezumi, Mazoku (demon bureaucrats assisting the Lord of Judgement), Specters, Tengu, Animal Yokai and Unique.

I do think, if the intention of this is to on ramp D&D 5e players to L5R that changing the setting so much is a mistake. If you got this to learn the setting, it’d be a bit like deciding to prepare to run a MCU RPG having never seen the films by reading the Marvel comics of the 90s.

This won’t bring people to play classic L5R, this will just create a camp of people who used a different setting and different ruleset. You won’t even buy setting books for L5R as the info inside them will be “wrong”

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
Yea I'm really not sure what 'endgame' for it is. Like, is this just L5R now? It's just a D&D tack-on? Because yea while we can argue all day about the changes FFG made, at least the roots were in Japan still. This is just kinda...not that at all? It's just generic 'far eastern fantasy' to the point where they themselves make some kinda bonkers statements that border on cultural erasure. Like the whole 'uh actually stoicism being a major theme in historical Japanese stories is a western myth you should avoid' is absolutely insane. I get they didn't want everyone to be a cartoon racist depiction screaming "MY HONOR" at every interaction but holy poo poo guys Japan did indeed believe 'honor' as a concept existed and was important in this time period!

I really can't imagine this will 'convert' any D&D players to L5R proper, yea. Even the most basic things like 'well in L5R proper no you can't be a demon dragon hybrid and just walk around like it's normal' or 'no you actually do kinda need to conform to what's expected of your position or basically everyone will think you're weird at best' would be radical changes. So, I guess the goal is to just do a redo of the old, ugh, '~Oriental Adventures~' thing they did with 3.5 where this is just a D&D splat that exists in its own bubble?

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
I'm never running L5R with dnd, but I might try to use a L5R class in another dnd game if I cna convince the gm.

MMAgCh
Aug 15, 2001
I am the poet,
The prophet of the pit
Like a hollow-point bullet
Straight to the head
I never missed...you
I'm aware of at least one other tabletop RPG (Symbaroum) that also released a special 5E version of its rules/setting. No doubt it makes sense financially, but as a trend I don't like it.

Epi Lepi posted:

You misunderstand. The issue was that because of exploding dice we had multiple instances where characters who did not specialize in "thing" performed better at that challenge in the Championship, than the characters that did. Maybe we had an outlier day but it happened enough that no one felt like their character build mattered in the slightest.
Right! I guess that can happen, though as characters with higher values in the relevant skills/rings get to roll more dice, they should also be scoring more explosive successes themselves on average. Not that this feels like much of a consolation right there and then, I'm sure.

SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!
I think this version is aimed at folks who didn't look at L5R as samurai drama and instead Samurai-based action fantasy. Magistrates dealing with cultists and shadowlands type things

Terratina
Jun 30, 2013
Nope.

It's honestly more suited to a Journey to the West style romp. Which is fine, which is a game I would be down for, but doesn't fit L5R to me.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006

HidaO-Win posted:

They've replaced L5Rs Bushido with Confucianism.

They've removed some Japanese language terms and instead put in 21st-century Mandarin pronunciations.

Can you expand on these two? Did they replace the seven Bushido virtues with Confucian equivalents? And what Japanese terms did they swap for Mandarin ones?

HidaO-Win
Jun 5, 2013

"And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"

Dick Burglar posted:

Can you expand on these two? Did they replace the seven Bushido virtues with Confucian equivalents? And what Japanese terms did they swap for Mandarin ones?

The Code of Akodo now enumerates four virtues: Loyalty, Courage, Compassion and Sincerity, the commentaries of Kitsuki Emika adds Filial Piety, Responsibility, Justice, Faithful Friendship, Wisdom, and Ritual Propriety.

Not an expert on the second but I'll quote a friend on reading the Lady Sun infidelity origin for Togashi and Fu Leng.

"It speaks volumes to me that 雲風國 is rendered with tone marks in its romanized form, while 天國 is not. Real "someone on the team took a unit of Intro to Mandarin and is pretty pleased with themselves" material.
To say nothing of the question of why 21st-century Mandarin pronunciations are being used as the basis for these names.
This is the kind of thing that led in the Olden Days to... "to promote pan-Asian vampire unity, we're calling ourselves kuei-jin", which is like announcing that to foster togetherness amongst member states, all of the EU will henceforth pronounce the number 42 as "quarante-zwei". "

Half the spirit realms are no longer named, the other half are. Shugenja is gone, Shinobi is still in. The Fortunes are no longer named, instead of Benten, its the Fortune of the Arts and Romantic Love. The only time Honour is mentioned in the book is in Honour Guard.

PaybackJack
May 21, 2003

You'll hit your head and say: 'Boy, how stupid could I have been. A moron could've figured this out. I must be a real dimwit. A pathetic nimnal. A wretched idiotic excuse for a human being for not having figured these simple puzzles out in the first place...As usual, you've been a real pantload!
Personally, I always liked when writers attempted to move some of the elements away from being strictly Japanese. To me a lot of the factions represented quite a few different areas of Asia and it was always a bit disappointing to see them get 'claimed' by weebs. I guess I'm probably in the minority, and it isn't to say that I don't like Samurai or the "roots" of the genre/setting, but I always felt like various elements played into different elements of Asia; Unicorn being the obvious Mongolians example, but Mantis felt very Vietnamese/Thai to me, Crab and Phoenix both felt much more like Chinese influences and the Dragon had Shaolin/Tibetan characteristics as well. Starting with Kurosawa films as a game is fine, but I liked when they went beyond that.

Ideas of a Xenophobic society aren't really new to D&D or exclusive to L5R, and I can see where they're coming from with D&D being a popular place for expression of stuff that isn't all "straight white guys". However I feel like this is where you really start to lose the plot. They need to allow more non-human races and genders and sexual identities so current players won't be put off, but I think you can still keep fear of the outside world in the sense that it has the potential to challenge the status quo of the Clans and the rule of the Empire.

It sounds like the best way to approach this would have been alongside a relaunch of the main L5R game itself that pushed 200 years into the future to explain how some of these things shifted over that time.

HidaO-Win
Jun 5, 2013

"And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"
It's basically a different setting to L5R now, which is fine, but you could have just done Oriental Adventures 5E and not messed with L5R.

This however does not get you the hopeful buy in of existing fans.

Spector29
Nov 28, 2016

As someone who was compelled to learn how to run 5e D&D to accommodate the old guard who were only familiar playing that, I do like having options. These motherfuckers have been playing 5e so long that the pretty extreme change-up AiR gives to the classes (and conditions and spellcasting etc) are super interesting. I really like how the Bushi isn't just a reskin of Battlemaster fighter, and the rules for Duels are pretty rad and flow with regular combat pretty well, which is what I really liked about L5R's 5e. (I've only played the FFG L5R)

Are the lore changes good? Probably not. Are they ignorable? Basically. It really doesn't seem hard to use this framework and insert it back into previous edition's lore and/or timelines. There's no Honor and Strife mechanics, but it doesn't seem impossible to strap whatever 4e's Honor/Glory equivalents onto this. It's pretty bad value to ignore the setting information when it's about 1/3 of the book and the book is $25, but imo that valuation works out for me. I'd certainly prefer a 6e that was more akin to 4e's mechanics (or 5e without the special dice), but for a GM who /also/ does D&D, this was a very enlightening crossover for me.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
I actually agree that Rokugan being less 1:1 'this is fantasy Japan' is better because yea it was never really a very good 'fantasy Japan' because its roots have always been a very weeby very western filtered 'historical Japan', so making it more 'Japanese focused blended inspirations' works well. My biggest issue with how this one did it was basically in them not actually using those things for any better storytelling.

Like, there's still no real way to use the non-Rokugan lands so they still just exist as backstory fodder and not much more unless you're going to do the work. There's some throwaway mentioning of non-humans being looked down on but removing those unique things L5R had like in last edition means there's nothing really...to it? Like, maybe a tea house owner will make your ratman stay outside because they assume he's dirty? That sucks? There's no tools there other than a bit of throwaway fluff. With the older games when your 'duty' and 'passion' and 'honor' were tangible concepts as well as setting things you actually had tools to work with from both sides of the table and tbh aside from the non-humans I'd argue that those mechanics actually WAY more encouraged playing non-typical genders/sexualities/backgrounds/etc in these stories than the D&D 'just fuckin...I dunno...+2 to DEX checks for rats????' method does.

Like already said this doesn't even 'solve' the issue where some people want their L5R to be more action focused 'samurais fighting shadow beasts' revolving stories because it really speaks more to vast, wandering, high fantasy epics than the more kinda...'survival horror'y tones those people tend to want.

There's nothing BAD about that, I love some vast high fantasy bullshit but it's just not Rokugan's strengths at all.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
That said when I say 'Rokugan probably doesn't need to be 1:1 fantasy Japan' I mean more in the terms of opening the outside world up, them just straight up loving up basic things like removing the actual Japanese inspired name use and all because that's some real 'eh they all sound alike' level lack of interest in genuine representation.

HidaO-Win
Jun 5, 2013

"And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"
One of the things that nags me about the argument that Honour is a negative stereotype in L5R, was that prior editions of the L5R corebooks, lots of thought went into Honour, Glory and later Status.

Honour was your personal morality and values, it was all internal and you could draw upon it occasionally to succeed when you would otherwise fail.
Glory was how famous and acclaimed you were.
Status was how important you were.

Your choices and decisions in play changed those, it made you consider those decisions a bit. We had discussions during games about it and how it would change for some clans.
It was more nuanced than the new critics are portraying is all.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
The book is pretty open that this is not supposed to be the new definitive take on Rokugan and is a modified version of the setting to play to D&D's strengths so I think if nothing else they did try and get out ahead of people immediately jumping to the conclusion that this is the new "official" version

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006

HidaO-Win posted:

Honour was your personal morality and values, it was all internal and you could draw upon it occasionally to succeed when you would otherwise fail.
Glory was how famous and acclaimed you were.
Status was how important you were.

tbh glory and status are basically the same thing. Also, honor waffles on whether it's internal or external, even in the same edition, seemingly depending on which author is writing or maybe just how they feel that day. If you lose honor for doing something when nobody's looking, it's internal. If you lose honor for doing the right thing but others perceive it as the wrong thing, it most definitely is not purely internal. And then you'll have some people charging in to argue that no, that should actually affect your glory or your status, and that's when you throw up your hands and realize that having three very similar but supposedly mechanically distinct systems is really stupid.

If honor were purely an internal thing, then loyal-but-underhanded shinobi should have honor through the loving roof. That alone is enough to put the lie to the idea that honor is purely internal. Edit: I look forward to the argument that no, shinobi know their morals are ~compromised~ due to their dirty work, therefore...

Can we just agree that role-playing games trying to quantify (and gamify) morality is a really lovely concept?

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth

HidaO-Win posted:

One of the things that nags me about the argument that Honour is a negative stereotype in L5R, was that prior editions of the L5R corebooks, lots of thought went into Honour, Glory and later Status.

Honour was your personal morality and values, it was all internal and you could draw upon it occasionally to succeed when you would otherwise fail.
Glory was how famous and acclaimed you were.
Status was how important you were.

Your choices and decisions in play changed those, it made you consider those decisions a bit. We had discussions during games about it and how it would change for some clans.
It was more nuanced than the new critics are portraying is all.

yea honor and its related tangibles was actually one of the better thought out parts of L5R and dumpstering it while calling it a 'stereotype' is absurd. The entire point was that all three were unique concepts that meant entirely different things. You had men of high honor but low status who were principled and noble despite not 'playing the game' well, you had the opposite in your typical corrupt authority stories, you had ''glory' as a concept that was fluid because both a master paper maker and a powerful general would be high 'glory' people for vastly different reasons and that interaction is what made things happen.

L5R has, absolutely, dealt in stereotype in its past versions and that sucks rear end, but insisting that the base concept of the honor mechanic as a storytelling device is one of them speaks to a real lack of interest in L5R as a base. Frankly a lot of the changes feel absolutely hosed. Instead of fixing the more awkward Japanese inspired names for things they just made everything english, but not like, actually common and smooth english, more like they directly translated things? So you have poo poo like Emma-O becoming "The Judgement Champion" which is just...such a loving clunky and dumb name to actually have to say? You don't solve things by just sandblasting any Japanese inspiration and doing weird poo poo like making two celestial beings the kids of a Chinese sounding one, that's just exactly the weird 'eh, it all looks alike' lazy poo poo L5R has been trying to get away from!

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
The book very repeatedly mentions that Japan isn't the only inspiration for Rokugan and lists Chinese material as much as samurai fiction in the references.. If anything a lot of setting changies seem to be adding wuxia to the mix to allow for player characters who can just run around fighting and doing good deeds without necessarily being chained to a position.

I don't see the "it all sounds the same" here when they're very clear on what they're pulling from

That said "Judgement Overlord" is incredibly clunky yeah

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth

Blockhouse posted:

The book very repeatedly mentions that Japan isn't the only inspiration for Rokugan and lists Chinese material as much as samurai fiction in the references.. If anything a lot of setting changies seem to be adding wuxia to the mix to allow for player characters who can just run around fighting and doing good deeds without necessarily being chained to a position.

I don't see the "it all sounds the same" here when they're very clear on what they're pulling from

That said "Judgement Overlord" is incredibly clunky yeah

Because you don't fix 'L5R had a problem with reducing Japanese inspired storytelling to stereotypes in some parts' with 'well let's throw in some half-learned Chinese and just erase the Japanese words and delete anything like bushido to replace it with an ~adventurer's code~ that makes no sense to exist instead'. You do it by, say, expanding on the not-China that exists in the world, making it clear you can make a character from there and give ways to make them distinct as a person of a different background and all.

Basically if the problem you're solving is 'this game is a bit reductive of a culture' it feels like a bad solution to go with 'we should just delete the vast majority of mentioning of that culture, even done correctly with stuff like names and all, and also throw in some similar cultures so we can call it 'pan Asian' instead'. You're not making it more respectful to Japan that way, you're just making it generic.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

sexpig by night posted:

Because you don't fix 'L5R had a problem with reducing Japanese inspired storytelling to stereotypes in some parts' with 'well let's throw in some half-learned Chinese and just erase the Japanese words and delete anything like bushido to replace it with an ~adventurer's code~ that makes no sense to exist instead'. You do it by, say, expanding on the not-China that exists in the world, making it clear you can make a character from there and give ways to make them distinct as a person of a different background and all.

I think they kind of do that, though. The foreign countries get more characterization than of any of the minor clans, and the fact that these countries exist at all and you can play them without some dumb empire-wide "all foreigners must die on sight" ban is a major step forward for the setting. Is it as in-depth as it should be? Probably not, but this is also one book that's already pushing 450 pages and there's supplements for that.

I also don't know that trying to decouple the in-universe pantheon from just literally being Japanese mythology is making the setting more generic.

HidaO-Win
Jun 5, 2013

"And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"
L5R is about the stories set in Rokugan, and their desperate struggles against a horrifying external threat and the lands internal divisions.

Making other countries with prominent ties to Rokugan commonly encountered dilutes that story and robs the setting of some of its intensity and inevitably will cause a loss of focus in the writing.

L5Rs story never really got better when the expanded outside Rokugan to the devastated Ivory Kingdoms, the meat of the game was Rokugan. Again perfectly serviceable stuff in the new setting, but it could just be Oriental Adventures 5E and not muddy the waters.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

HidaO-Win posted:

L5Rs story never really got better when the expanded outside Rokugan to the devastated Ivory Kingdoms, the meat of the game was Rokugan. Again perfectly serviceable stuff in the new setting, but it could just be Oriental Adventures 5E and not muddy the waters.

How was the Second City... book? Box set? I never read it.

EverettLO
Jul 2, 2007
I'm a lurker no more


Dawgstar posted:

How was the Second City... book? Box set? I never read it.

It was very good and delved into a lot of interesting themes that come up when a insular and xenophobic society is forced to deal with outsiders outside of their comfort zone.

That said it was kind of pitched as a backwater that was a small enough pond that your characters could more easily become big fish.

Terratina
Jun 30, 2013

Dick Burglar posted:

tbh glory and status are basically the same thing. Also, honor waffles on whether it's internal or external, even in the same edition, seemingly depending on which author is writing or maybe just how they feel that day. If you lose honor for doing something when nobody's looking, it's internal. If you lose honor for doing the right thing but others perceive it as the wrong thing, it most definitely is not purely internal. And then you'll have some people charging in to argue that no, that should actually affect your glory or your status, and that's when you throw up your hands and realize that having three very similar but supposedly mechanically distinct systems is really stupid.

If honor were purely an internal thing, then loyal-but-underhanded shinobi should have honor through the loving roof. That alone is enough to put the lie to the idea that honor is purely internal. Edit: I look forward to the argument that no, shinobi know their morals are ~compromised~ due to their dirty work, therefore...

Can we just agree that role-playing games trying to quantify (and gamify) morality is a really lovely concept?

I for one like the tension in the system of who your character is versus the societial expectations laid upon them. But I'm willing to concede there are some major pitfalls in quantifying and gaming mortality (see World of Darkness, D&D Alignment).

L5R 5e is at least a lot more clearer on what the difference is between honor and glory. Honor being the internal measure of how adherent to Bushido you are, Glory being how your peers perceive you (Status of course being the measure of how high you are on the totem pole).

For instance, while loyal but underhanded shinobi definitely keep the tenet of Duty and Loyalty, they probably definitely ignore the other tenets like Righteousness, Compassion, Sincerity, etc. Even simple lying is enough cause to knock that honor score down.

Nevertheless, playing low honor characters isn't a bad thing, nor Bad Wrong Fun. They just disregard Bushido more than the average samurai.

The feudal society of Rokugan is different to our modern day ones and I enjoy role-playing in a world with different societal rules to our own. It's about expectations vs reality, and the interplay within that.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

HidaO-Win posted:

L5R is about the stories set in Rokugan, and their desperate struggles against a horrifying external threat and the lands internal divisions.

Making other countries with prominent ties to Rokugan commonly encountered dilutes that story and robs the setting of some of its intensity and inevitably will cause a loss of focus in the writing.

L5Rs story never really got better when the expanded outside Rokugan to the devastated Ivory Kingdoms, the meat of the game was Rokugan. Again perfectly serviceable stuff in the new setting, but it could just be Oriental Adventures 5E and not muddy the waters.

I don't think L5R or Rokugan have to be One Thing.

HidaO-Win
Jun 5, 2013

"And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"

Dawgstar posted:

How was the Second City... book? Box set? I never read it.

It was really heavy, carrying two back from Gencon in my carry on baggage was a struggle.

It was a good boxed set, you could do cool stuff with it, but the less said about the God Beast story arc and the Yodotai invasion the better.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006

Terratina posted:

I for one like the tension in the system of who your character is versus the societial expectations laid upon them. But I'm willing to concede there are some major pitfalls in quantifying and gaming mortality (see World of Darkness, D&D Alignment).

L5R 5e is at least a lot more clearer on what the difference is between honor and glory. Honor being the internal measure of how adherent to Bushido you are, Glory being how your peers perceive you (Status of course being the measure of how high you are on the totem pole).

For instance, while loyal but underhanded shinobi definitely keep the tenet of Duty and Loyalty, they probably definitely ignore the other tenets like Righteousness, Compassion, Sincerity, etc. Even simple lying is enough cause to knock that honor score down.

Nevertheless, playing low honor characters isn't a bad thing, nor Bad Wrong Fun. They just disregard Bushido more than the average samurai.

The feudal society of Rokugan is different to our modern day ones and I enjoy role-playing in a world with different societal rules to our own. It's about expectations vs reality, and the interplay within that.

That's generally how Honor and Glory are supposed to work, but it seems like a lot of writers (and GMs) just forget Glory exists and end up tacking everything onto Honor instead.

Also, the tenets of Bushido are not all well established. Sincerity, especially, is dogshit. Some writers seem to think it means "you must always be truthful and forthcoming" and others think it means "put your heart into your work/don't half-rear end poo poo." And the clan that is supposed to exemplify sincerity is the Dragon clan, whose whole schtick is being cryptic as gently caress and holding onto certain Big Secrets. Frankly, I don't think a society modeled on feudal Japan, where one's true feelings are kept close to the chest and places a huge emphasis on not saying anything that can cause offense, can remotely support the idea that sincerity is about not lying. But, as your post exemplifies, that line always seems to creep into discussions about the Bushido code, which is why gamifying the code sucks.

Edit: then again, bushido and its tenets weren't formalized until well after the feudal period had ended, so I guess this is the kind of anachronistic crap you get for trying to crowbar a romanticized version of "be a good lil servant and do as your master tells you" into a fantastical version of the feudal period.

Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Aug 8, 2022

Terratina
Jun 30, 2013

Dick Burglar posted:

That's generally how Honor and Glory are supposed to work, but it seems like a lot of writers (and GMs) just forget Glory exists and end up tacking everything onto Honor instead.

Also, the tenets of Bushido are not all well established. Sincerity, especially, is dogshit. Some writers seem to think it means "you must always be truthful and forthcoming" and others think it means "put your heart into your work/don't half-rear end poo poo." And the clan that is supposed to exemplify sincerity is the Dragon clan, whose whole schtick is being cryptic as gently caress and holding onto certain Big Secrets. Frankly, I don't think a society modeled on feudal Japan, where one's true feelings are kept close to the chest and places a huge emphasis on not saying anything that can cause offense, can remotely support the idea that sincerity is about not lying. But, as your post exemplifies, that line always seems to creep into discussions about the Bushido code, which is why gamifying the code sucks.

Edit: then again, bushido and its tenets weren't formalized until well after the feudal period had ended, so I guess this is the kind of anachronistic crap you get for trying to crowbar a romanticized version of "be a good lil servant and do as your master tells you" into a fantastical version of the feudal period.

I agree, I could stare at Honor and Righteousness until I'm blue in the face and come out with a different interpretation depending on the time of day.

Sincerity has many facets, like not lying, being true to yourself (looking at you, Dragon) and the most common thing that will crop up in such a "face"-based society: not breaking your word.

It's not a good code, no. But at least the section on the tenets in the 5e core rulebook give curt guidance to cut down on the guff. It may seem unfair to have a game with vague rules (honorable mention D&D 5e's "natural language"), but that's what discussions at the table is for.

Especially if there is a probable honor breach, not that honor breaches have stopped any player I know from dishonorable behavior. It's a resource after all.

However, on a different note, it's not the only non-historical thing about L5R, but it's not trying to be a 1:1 representation.

long-ass nips Diane
Dec 13, 2010

Breathe.

I picked up Adventures in Rokugan and I don't think it's amazing, but it's interesting as an alternate take on the setting. I'm not worried at all about it "replacing" the existing setting, it includes a little call out box right at the beginning of the book saying that it's meant to be different and suggests using it to play stories that would then be considered legends or folktales in the d10 version of the setting.

They're still making books for that setting too, Writ of the Wilds is coming out soonish.

Terratina
Jun 30, 2013

long-rear end nips Diane posted:

I picked up Adventures in Rokugan and I don't think it's amazing, but it's interesting as an alternate take on the setting. I'm not worried at all about it "replacing" the existing setting, it includes a little call out box right at the beginning of the book saying that it's meant to be different and suggests using it to play stories that would then be considered legends or folktales in the d10 version of the setting.

They're still making books for that setting too, Writ of the Wilds is coming out soonish.

I'm not particularly concerned about it "replacing" the main line game at all.

I'm fine with it as a D&D 5e product set in Rokugan and for folks to play around with in being cool people with katanas and mystical invocations and what not, it's some of the more interesting choices that stick out to me.

I understand it's coming from a good place of trying to make things right. As a Brit, it does come off as a bit Nanny State though.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
the reason for death taking Mazoku out of the campaign like a normal mortal character dying being that you're sent back to deal with a century's worth of paperwork is pretty funny

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

If folks are interested, Writ of the Wilds which covers the Shinomen Forest and related wilderness stuff dropped recently. It covers playing Naga, Nezumi and the Dragonfly Clan. One interesting bit about the Naga is in the RPG they used to have a thing where the women of the species could trade their big ol' snake tail for legs but now all Naga - or at least PCs - can cast an illusion that makes you just sort of ignore it because they see a person with a large dog or two people or something that takes up enough space for the brain to go 'sure, okay' which would make it easier to wander around Rokugan. They're also illustrated more reptilian, which is neat.

Napoleon Nelson
Nov 8, 2012


Dawgstar posted:

If folks are interested, Writ of the Wilds which covers the Shinomen Forest and related wilderness stuff dropped recently. It covers playing Naga, Nezumi and the Dragonfly Clan. One interesting bit about the Naga is in the RPG they used to have a thing where the women of the species could trade their big ol' snake tail for legs but now all Naga - or at least PCs - can cast an illusion that makes you just sort of ignore it because they see a person with a large dog or two people or something that takes up enough space for the brain to go 'sure, okay' which would make it easier to wander around Rokugan. They're also illustrated more reptilian, which is neat.

That's the pdf version? Glad to see it actually came out, hopefully that means the physical one is coming soon...

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Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Napoleon Nelson posted:

That's the pdf version? Glad to see it actually came out, hopefully that means the physical one is coming soon...

Yeah, it's the PDF, sorry. Saw it on Drive Thru. No idea about a hardcopy.

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