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Ccs posted:The funniest thing is he’s not in his 40s. Yes he’s written like that but according to the book timeline he’s like 25 as an innkeeper. Waxing about his days as a 17 year old who wrecked the world Pretty sure the heavily implied plot point from that contradiction that has yet to be told here is that he has spent a lot of time in the Fey realm where he doesn't age, months can go by in the span of a real world day. It's already been set up already as a plot device once, it's not exactly rocket science that there's a reason for the discrepancy between his age and attitude. But nice cinema sinning.
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Mar 14, 2024 01:37
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Kchama posted:According to Kvothe he was there a couple months at most. When asked how long he was there, he mentioned he had only grew a little beard and shaved it (though Felurian didn't like it when he shaved) a couple times. So that kind of kills that idea dead. I would have thought the obvious future plot point would be that he returns to the Fey for an extended period, not just boning but at bare minimum something involved in wherever Bast is from, releasing the spider things, provoking a Fey invasion, and other more taxing experiences that age him to the point where he is at in the book. I don't think it's too difficult to infer that(?). The timeline age discrepancy is intentionally written as a contradiction. It'd say its pretty disingenuous or poor media literacy to imply otherwise.
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Mar 14, 2024 02:14
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I guess you could read a different book
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Mar 14, 2024 02:40
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Kchama posted:None of that stuff has even been hinted at in the books that are out, and the third book doesn't seem to be forthcoming. Like his legend and the things he's done has all been set out, and none of them involve a return to the fae world. Also part of the problem is that people in the book act as if he is REALLY older than 25, not that he's a 25 year old who is simply extra world-weary and experienced beyond his years. I think you'll find if you read the actual book it's littered with references to him being in the Fey for some time (post his first visit), and the fact that they're leaking into the world is his fault? His casual relation with Bast, knowledge of the scrale, knowing secret knowledge of fey rights and names, protection against skin walkers, etc. Thats not something he learnt on his first visit. I'm not sure how to put it any more bluntly than it's pretty detailed in the basic text that he is going back in and stay there a long time. 25yo Kvothe to a middle aged scholar and a demon prince: "You are both so young". Gee I wonder why he said that, just a hilarious mistake by the dumb author. Cinema sin counter goes *Ding*! Goffer fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 05:20
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Isn't that sort of the point? What he does to the troupe is a pretty direct mirror of his own family being massacred. After committing malfeasance by using his power to murder the bandit camp in a rather horrific style, the next part of his descent into becoming Chandrian adjacent? He's Anakin murdering the sand people at that point in the book. I would have thought *that's an intentional part of the story* the "unreliable narrator" telling the story from his perspective at the time, that he's doing bad things for the "right" reasons. Kvothe's glorified edmah ruh fantasy is a foundational pillar that he clings to, basically the only thing he carried with him from his past. This shapes him as a character, but in reality his own troupe was made up of prostitutes, beggars and thieves, the ruh being noble performers is a child's fantasy that his father told him. The young Kvothe character is pretty explicitly blind to this, as it's so core to his identity, and if he ran into a group like his own he'd reject them as false edmah ruh as well. Like, the main driving narrative of the books is "How did a promising young talent end up a bitter washed up bartender at 25, who is waiting to die?", and "let me tell you how the great Kvothe hosed everything up, by doing things without fully considering the outcomes of his actions". It's pretty obvious he regrets most of his life decisions, he's got "folly" splashed on a sign above the bar. Every moment he is alone he's moping around, crying, defeated. He knows he hosed up.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:55
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Kchama posted:That was the barmaid who was like "When I saw you before you left, you were not a sexhaver. But now I can confirm, you have had sexhad many times!" and then had sex with him because of how hot the 16 year old boy was now. His childhood is story is full of sugar-coated / rose tinted activities that are pretty dodgy, it's just told in a whimsical way. *Our troop never did anything really bad* is pretty much a thing a child would think, especially if they were all killed when he was 12. If you've got a charismatic front man as a father telling you all the stories, who dies suddenly while you're still at a formative age, you might buy into the myth. And hold onto it since it's all you have left. I don't think the Fake Edema Ruh scene is meant to be heroic at all, it's a slaughter, he kills all of them, the women and the children. They're not warriors, it's not noble combat, they're just no-one ex-bandits trying to make a buck. There's not much awesome about it at all. In that moment he became what he hated. He sells it as a noble thing because he rescues the girls, but it doesn't fit that narrative at all. "It's supposed to be legendary awesome" is a narrative you've created in your own mind, Kvothe vomits afterwards.
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Mar 15, 2024 02:23
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Lottery of Babylon posted:"Our troupe never did anything really bad" seems to be proven true when Kvothe assumes this other troupe is fake because they shoplifted a beer and he turns out to be 100% right. Or is that an unreliable narrator thing too? Did Kvothe invent the fake Ruh's confession out of whole cloth? What about the wise old lady afterward who absolves him of his guilt and tells him he did the right thing and the women among the fake Ruh deserved to be murdered extra hard; maybe she's a figment of the unreliable narrator's imagination too? How is "Our troupe never did anything really bad" proven true because some other troupe did something? There are examples at the start of the book where his troupe "acquired" a bunch of stuff. The unreliable narrator maybe isn't the best term. Biased narrator maybe. He tells the story from his perspective at the time, which by it's nature is told in a way that makes his own actions seem justified. The whole book is full of "I did this thing and it was great" followed by "the repercussions of the thing I did sucked". That's one of the consistent narrative threads of the book. Goffer fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 02:48
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Lottery of Babylon posted:I really don't think that tracks with what's in the books? Yes, he's moping in the present and has a sword named Folly, but Kvothe's actions rarely have negative consequences for him. I don't know if you missed the plot point where the (somewhat tangential) repercussion of setting his teacher on fire was being banned from the library for 1.5 books, with the added promised repercussion from that teacher becoming head of the university. The only thing he really wanted from going to the university in the first place. The feud with Ambrose means that he can't get a patron and so he is struggling with money, broken lutes, and escalates to assassination attempts, pirates, and hints that much worse things are in the works, ie killing Dena or his other friends, starting a war, etc. Those two repercussions drive the entirely of the struggles he has in the university portion of the book, I'm surprised you missed them. While he does get some positives out of his trip to Vint, his outbursts mean that the actually important things he is searching for (lochless box, the king's help with research) is now out of reach again. He learns sex and swordfighting, great, and what does he do with it? Goes and uses that power without thinking, which doesn't land well with his girlfriend. The more power he gains, the more he can and does misuse it, eg killing everyone in the troupe as opposed to thinking of a more creative solution that may not involve murder. Goffer fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 05:31
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cheat at solitaire posted:Kvothe was banned from the library for bringing a candle in there, not for setting his teacher on fire. That's right, he was got whipped as a consequence of setting his teacher on fire. So he took some fantasy opium to look cool, and as a consequence of that, combined with the consequence of being rude to Ambrose earlier to impress Fela, was tricked into taking a candle into the library and getting banned for that. What a great example of the... consequence free existence Kvothe leads(?) quote:The constant praise for the Edema Ruh would be a traumatized child clinging to happy memories, in a well-written book. There's really no need to think Kvothe's perspective is skewed, because nothing in the Kingkiller Chronicle ever contradicts what he believes about "his people" - except Kvothe himself. Kvothe lies, cheats, steals, does pretty much everything the Ruh are accused of by the greater society. None of it ever matters, because no one can tell that Kvothe is a Ruh. Kvothe is telling the story, are you expecting Bast or Scribe to just butt in and say "actually Kvothe, the ruh aren't as great as you think they are?" I'm not sure where you'd put something like that in? quote:The Fake Ruh subplot is just there to make Kvothe look like a righteous sufferer, like most other scenes in these books. Kvothe isn't a innocent sufferer beyond Tarbean, his suffering is directly tied to and caused by his ego, the choices he makes and plots he instigates. His worst enemy is himself, not the Chandrian or Ambrose or anyone else. That you see his story as righteous suffering is quite odd.
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Mar 15, 2024 10:52
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poo poo Fuckasaurus posted:I'm in Chapter 53 of WMF and it's obvious that Rothfuss is afraid to write anything but poverty-stricken Kvothe, but simultaneously has no experience with poverty, so it means nothing. Every stime he talks about money it's "very little" or "a lot" (but not for long) with numbers meaninglessly substituting for those words, and every time he gets money he throws it away ASAP on nice things he doesn't need or loses it or has it stolen so we can get back to Poor Kvothe. This is the behavior of a deeply depressed person engaging in self-destruction, but the narrative never acknowledges that, much less addresses and corrects it. You're a book and 53 chapters in. How has this not sunk in? Goffer fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 21:29
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Honestly with the level of literary critique in this thread I'd love to see someone write about someone like Paul Artradies. How killing off his house and exiling him to the desert hardly set him back, he becomes emporer anyway. Or how implausible it is that he has the Fremen sucking his dick for half the book because he straps his boots the right way one time. I imagine there'd be something about white saviour trope in there too. It feels either pretty disingenuous or just showing a poor level of literacy. Goffer fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 03:21
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pentyne posted:Listen buddy, Patrick Rothfuss isn't going to gently caress you. Can you imagine
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Mar 16, 2024 04:09
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I guess they both wrote about a matriarchal culture of sex ninjas. >The Honored Matres are able to imprint a man sexually by amplifying his orgasmic response to such an ecstatic height that the victim of an imprinting becomes "addicted" to his imprinter, thereby becoming a willing slave of the Honored Matre who "marks" him. Edit: does Paul gently caress the sex ninjas so well they don't enslave him and instead praise him for his sexual abilities? I didn't get that far into the series. Goffer fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 04:42
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Lol, it's a 47th clone of Duncan Idaho that does the loving. He enslaves the sex slave ninjas by loving them. That's sure something.
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Mar 16, 2024 05:45
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Kchama posted:“Why aren’t you guys criticizing this book instead?!” isn’t the winning argument that you think it is. The thing is, we understood why all that happened as it did by the end of the very first book. Even if I don’t think Dune is particularly good, it at least does that. If Kingkiller Chronicles was complete and explained everything in a compelling, interesting way, then I think people’s opinion would be different. But it’s not, and it hasn’t. That’s the difference. In a serious answer - When he leaves Tarbean he has absolutely nothing tangible, just his wits, his traumas, his pride, and a desire to avenge his family. There's no real down from there. To lose something, he has to have the ability to acquire something precious enough to lose. The only reason of his to go to the university is to access the archives, to find out about the Chandrian. Something that he immediately loses access to and doesn't regain access to until book 2. It's a significant consequence. Sure, he picks up a bunch of other learnings and skills there, but he would throw it all away to get more information on the Chandrian (and sort of does at the end of book 1 when he runs off to the dragon town). The archive also potentially still holds two pieces of potentially valuable information, in the copper/stone doors, and yillish story knots. Access to the archieve the only valuable thing he seeks, at least initially - money is merely an issue because it's only of the only things that can prevent him from getting access, and it's the one thing that taken away from him. He gains two other things - friends, and power. Power, much like money, is not something he seeks for its own sake. He collects it as a tool he can use to better survive. In current day he has none, and he's quite content with that. He doesn't seek out friends, they're something that happen to him, a distraction from his vengeance. But his relationships become the things that become more valuable as anything that would help with his quest. Finally, there's his pride, of his ruh upbringing, of his his heritage and traditions. As he doesn't really have anything else a lot of the time, it's something he instincually doesn't like to lose. During his conflicts he usually lets his pride get in the way, and he ultimately loses ground on his quest(the only thing valuable to him). Some losses are minor, some distract, and some open the door to other opportunities, but it's pretty consistent that he has a set pattern of behaviour in which he acts in the interests of one thing at a cost to another. Now that he's built friendships, those are now potential valuable things that he may lose. "What has he lost" is a good question, but your other statements are somewhat redundant. He's not going to fail to find a way to face the Chandrian, regardless of what he loses, he will bring about that confrontation. That's a guaranteed outcome based on the "current day" Kote's situation. Kvothe's story is still in the accumulation stage, he's still in the process of acquiring information and power to do that. But we're not halfway through the story, we're on the second last day of it. *He's already lost it.* Assumedly, he has completed his mission, he's killed an Angel, probably has Cinder's sword on the mantle, and done a bunch of other reasonably impressive things. What has he lost? What does he have by the end of book 2 that he does not have in "current day?" He has presumably had his revenge and yet he regrets his life decisions, and is waiting to die. Based on his current decision making patterns and frequent foreshadowing, the costs of his decisions accumulate and hurt him in ways that transcend the satisfaction of avenging his family. That's text as written currently in the 2 books, you can draw your own conclusions, but I would have thought it obvious he's suffering the consequences of what he has done on page 1 of book 1. I thought that would be pretty understandable but apparently this whole thread is somehow just... made to troll me? I'll bow out now though.
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Mar 16, 2024 11:52
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Ugh, made me look it up again: >When Murbella, an Honored Matre, tries to sexually bond Idaho, he entraps and enslaves her, revealing the Tleilaxu purpose: To conquer the Honored Matres by using a better version of their own sexual techniques.... Idaho and Murbella are confined to a no-ship on Chapterhouse. There, Idaho trains young men to go out into the universe and enslave Honored Matres. That's in heretics dune, a Frankie original. Lol it's pretty... in depth https://theboywhocan11.tumblr.com/post/162920655227/heretics-of-dune-the-smut-scenes-on-pages-434-to . For context, is Duncan the hero at this point? Goffer fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 14:09
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"It's funny to compare Pat to Frank." [She felt the swift release of lubricant fluid] "No not that Frank."  make up your minds
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Mar 16, 2024 16:00
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I would but he hasn't written it yet. Another similarity between Frank and Pat, they both died before finishing their series.
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Mar 16, 2024 21:58
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Kchama posted:
Why does he need money? Every time, to cover tuition, to stay in uni, so he can access the archives (even banned, it's still his most likely avenue of finding information). Once he gets access, he barely sees his friends, he only really sees them when they pull him away, or for Denna related reasons. That he spends money freely when he has it, only points to his impulsiveness. He goes to Vint because his tuition would be set at an unattainable level (meaning no access to the archives), and the idea that nobility often have their own private libraries that aren't censored like the archives. Why does he go to the sex ninjas village? Because they encounter a Chandrian in the forest, and Temu knows about them, and his people know more. He explicitly mentioned that to the elder, that he was there for information (and also so his friend does not get excommunicated). That other things happen does not detract from that. In all cases, he comes to value his friends, but his driving motivation at all times is on finding out any information about the Chandrian.
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Mar 17, 2024 04:28
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I wouldn't say he's well-intentioned at all, he's almost entirely self interested. His motives aren't to make the world a better place. He's chaotic neutral
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Mar 17, 2024 04:57
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poo poo Fuckasaurus posted:The problem with money being a driver for the plot is that it hangs around too long. For nearly the entirety of 2 books, money is the biggest or (more often) only problem Kvothe has. We're told he's a talented musician and (after the first book) a talented artificer, and indeed he does make money from these things, but it's never enough except when it is. He could even tutor other students, presumably for shitloads given the way tuition is assigned and the mass of noble failchildren enrolled. The entire money subplot therefore revolves around Kvothe simply choosing not to do the extremely profitable work he can do, except when he has literally no other option and deadlines are looming, and choosing instead to pursue extracurriculars like chasing women. Pretty sure the music isn't profitable because Ambrose shuts down any interest in him from wealthy patrons, most bars have him blacklisted as a performer, and the only regular gig he has is his lovely pub (the fancy music venue seems to have a reputation and a rotating performer list, probably doesn't have too many repeat performances?) But also impulsiveness and poor decision making is why he's currently on the outskirts of nowhere working in a pub, that's not going to get better soon. I would be thought the "It's worked out so far" is predictably(?) building to a catastrophic fall from grace/hubris moment. (That will never come because the books won't be finished). It feels like the semi-recent criticism of She-Hulk for being "instantly in control of her powers" in the first episode. It's a reasonably predictable moment of hubris and set up for the critical moment where she loses control in the final episodes, but apparently a lot of people set out to criticise the point.
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Mar 18, 2024 00:56
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Atlas Hugged posted:He's just a typical teenager that has plot armor or big events happen around him for no other reason than he's the main character... Paul Atreides
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Mar 18, 2024 07:45
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Atlas Hugged posted:By the end of the first novel, he's a father, basically married, and winning at politics because he has a loaded gun held to the galaxy's head and is finally willing to pull the trigger. That all happens in one book and it's a believable journey for Paul to have been on. There are 2 Pauls, young and older Paul, seperated by a *7 years later* interlude. The Paul in either half is a static entity, there's no growth to his character within either section. Acquiring a family is not character growth - not even the death of his son changes his character. Young Paul would use the same tactics as older Paul if he were in the same situation. The only difference between the two is his conviction, which is pretty easy to show with a *7 years later* time skip. (In the same vein could as easily say the Kvothe to Kote 7 year transition is "character growth", as Kote has learnt and changed from his experiences.) Goffer fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 08:28
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Kchama posted:Why are you so obsessed with bringing Dune into this to attack? I say this as someone who doesn't particularly like Dune, you seem to think it is some good leverage point you can use to defeat criticisms of Kingkiller Chronicles by going "Ah-HAH! You all like THIS thing, and it has a similarities! Hypocrites!" But the thing is, you can get away with doing things depending on how you execute it. The dune reference got brought up as a thing again, just above, and it was a pretty funny juxtaposition of saying having plot armour and things happen is bad, then immediately saying paul arteidi, noted character that could only have survived due to many unique plot contrivences. I probably could have done without the 2nd post.
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Mar 18, 2024 09:56
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Kchama posted:It gets brought up again and again because you won't shut up about it even though it has nothing to do with Kingkiller Chronicles. You talk more about Dune in the KKC thread then you do KKC. You were the first person to bring up Dune in like two years and you did it to try and divert away from KKC's flaws. There's actually quite a lot of similarities once you start to look into it - both hyper competent children, families murdered, spend a bunch of time broke (for years all Pauls got to his name is a bit of water). They study with some guys in robes, are plagued by destiny itself to bring about a dark future, kills/overthrows a king/emporer, and at the end, both regret their life decisions. It's basically the same story
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Mar 18, 2024 11:12
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Mzuri posted:Almost some sort of Hero's Journey or something. Someone should use that to write a bunch of stories. Sort of, but like, a failed heroes journey? One that ends in calamity, a darker world and the protagonist filled with regret.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:01
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Imagine, for a moment, a story where Darth Vader surviving the Endor battle. He goes into hiding, a recluse. The new republic has a bounty on his head. A bounty hunter who knows him by reputation tracks him down, and notices he's not a match the profile of "Dark Lord of the Sith", he's just a moisture farmer. Before he brings him in, he is curious to see why, so he goes to have a conversation. Vader leans across the table and says, "let me tell you a tale about the Chosen One". And then after 2 days of telling his story, ending the day with a story about an "attack of the clones", you complain that the story is poo poo because you don't know why Anakin turned into Darth Vader, how he got the suit, or what he regrets.
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Mar 18, 2024 22:10
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