|
Order of blame -Omar Gonzalez -Jurgen Klinsman -Bruce Arena -Mexico discuss here.
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 06:14 |
|
|
america missed the world cup because they dont have any good players but assumed they did and failed to try.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:43
|
|
|
Lol that Klinsmann is being blamed. As if the 12 MLS guys over 30 playing yesterday would’ve done better with four years of Arena during the formative 26-30 years of age.
Dirk Pitt fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Oct 11, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
They're real poo poo op
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
loving idiots for not throwing the game against panama in 2013, hahaha
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:47
|
|
|
The US league/grasssroots "system" is only good at the sports that only US plays, bar basketball College sports system is bad at sports
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:48
|
|
|
this is their year
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
Alexeythegreat posted:The US league/grasssroots "system" is only good at the sports that only US plays, bar basketball It only works for those sports because they have zero competition.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
MLS is the second best league in CONCACAF behind Liga MX. That's not saying much, still garbage, but not as awful as every other one. Because of this, Central Americans and Caribbeans who are not good enough for Europe have an intermediate place where they can improve, and the more teams MLS has, the more chances these mediocres have of improving. For Americans it has the opposite effect, looks like most American players don't want to go to Europe and try to make it if they can stay home and get by, so they also stay mediocre. That's my theory that MLS harms American players and helps the rest. It's also remarkable to note that of all the hex teams, only Mexico are better than 4 years ago, the rest are all objectively worse, does that mean that the USMNT is really the one with the most decreased quality out of US, CR, Pan and Hon?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 21:55
|
|
|
Simone Poodoin posted:MLS is the second best league in CONCACAF behind Liga MX. That's not saying much, still garbage, but not as awful as every other one. I just realized that my league, the Russian league, is basically the less artificial MLS of Central/Eastern Europe It's maybe slightly less extreme because there's a relegation system, less money, and availability of UEFA competitions, but the problems are generally the same (and are a massive reason why Russia is very bad even if there are clubs in the "I know this one without googling" relevance bracket)
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
Dirk Pitt posted:Lol that Klinsmann is being blamed. As if the 12 MLS guys over 30 playing yesterday would’ve done better with four years of Arena during the formative 26-30 years. Klinsmann was a mediocre coach who did not get significantly better results on the pitch than those that came before him. And the lovely results the team got under him in this hex were a major part of the reason why they did not succeed. Is Arena better in any way? Well no, in some ways quite a bit worse, and they should probably have fired his rear end yesterday, panic hiring him was no kind of progress. But I do think the team settled into crappy habits under Klinsmann that they failed to shake off. Obviously it is not all down to the coaching, American soccer has way worse problems than that (and Klinsmann to his credit actually tried to address some of them), but I can see why people blame him. The biggest argument in Klinsmann's favor was that the US was not likely to get anyone better at the time, and the biggest argument against him is that they still aren't, he did not much improve the results, the team, or the state of the game. At best he kept them from getting worse.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:02
|
|
|
the MLS system is designed to put the best young talent on poo poo teams, so they practice with the shittiest players and learn from the shittiest coaches in the league, they have to compete for starting spots against said poo poo players and it also spreads the best players out among everyone so nobody has to learn how to play against a team that is full of actual good players in order to reach success
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
lmao that the US looked at all the dumb mistakes that Mexico made that allowed the US to dethrone them as the best in CONCACAF and went "oh yeah well we can make even worse decisions" Parity is bad, and protecting domestic players makes them stagnate and regress. Your team lost to other teams with MLS players but those guys actually had to earn their spots and compete instead of just be mediocre. Liga MX has been doing the same poo poo for years and I've been whining about MLS doing the same for ever and so lmao at the MLS posters who defended the dumb poo poo their league does (Mexico isn't far behind, we almost didn't qualify last cycle and we won't be soon if the systemic rot isn't addressed) Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Oct 11, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:06
|
|
|
skasion posted:Klinsmann was a mediocre coach who did not get significantly better results on the pitch than those that came before him. And the lovely results the team got under him in this hex were a major part of the reason why they did not succeed. Is Arena better in any way? Well no, in some ways quite a bit worse, and they should probably have fired his rear end yesterday, panic hiring him was no kind of progress. But I do think the team settled into crappy habits under Klinsmann that they failed to shake off. Im not trying to argue that Klinsmann was a master coach who got a raw deal. He had a lot of faults. But didn’t Klinsmann coach two games in this Hex before he was fired? I’d hardly call losses to Mexico and Costa Rica at the very start a major reason they failed to qualify. I’m still very convinced that the political nature of US Soccer and the determination to treat the national team like a MLS All Star squad to drive tickets is the bigger issue. Klinsmann bringing in actually trained younger Americans in lieu of the monster physical but technically lacking geriatrics Arena preferred was a good thing. Possibly not in the short term, but in the long term it would be. Landon Donovan, Grant Wahl, and the ‘soccer press’ can gently caress off after this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
Am I allowed to say the USMNT is bad ITT?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:11
|
|
|
blue footed boobie posted:Am I allowed to say the USMNT is bad ITT? I apologize. You were in the right. Please post it as much as you’d like.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:13
|
|
|
[quote="“Dirk Pitt”" post="“477285311”"] Im not trying to argue that Klinsmann was a master coach who got a raw deal. He had a lot of faults. But didn’t Klinsmann coach two games in this Hex before he was fired? I’d hardly call losses to Mexico and Costa Rica at the very start a major reason they failed to qualify. I’m still very convinced that the political nature of US Soccer and the determination to treat the national team like a MLS All Star squad to drive tickets is the bigger issue. Klinsmann bringing in actually trained younger Americans in lieu of the monster physical but technically lacking geriatrics Arena preferred was a good thing. Possibly not in the short term, but in the long term it would be. Landon Donovan, Grant Wahl, and the ‘soccer press’ can gently caress off after this. [/quote] Klinsmann's plan, per se, was a good one. Klinsmann's managerial tactics were dogshit and trying to pound a square peg into a round hole over and over again was an exercise in futility. As has been discussed, he should've had an Executive Director role. He knew what to do. The problem is that you can't force a bunch of people to play a way that they don't have the skills to play.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:17
|
|
|
Has Alexi Lalas dared to come out and be a smug oval office about this yet
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
who are the best american players currently? thanks
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:21
|
|
|
sportsgenius86 posted:Klinsmann's plan, per se, was a good one. Klinsmann's managerial tactics were dogshit and trying to pound a square peg into a round hole over and over again was an exercise in futility. Does US Soccer even have this role? Our MLS lifers surely didn’t have the ability to play the way Klinsmann wanted, but gently caress them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:21
|
|
|
Just looking at the money and the international market for players and the fact that an average MLS squad player makes as much as like a cop or a teacher, there's no reason for a talented multi-sport kid who's getting good advice to pick soccer, right? Unless he's super tiny. I don't know what kind of little technocratic change they can make to fix that, like even doing more to crowd out the lovely NCAA system - well, a lot of families have to stick with it for those scholarships. Nothing is going to swoop in to pay non-blue chip kids 25k/year to see if they develop.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
Bogan Krkic posted:who are the best american players currently? thanks 1. Christian Pulisic The others like Weston McKinnie didn’t even get a call up. Where the gently caress was John Brooks? Surely he’s better than Feilhaber.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:24
|
|
|
Where was Fabian Johnson actually? Not murrican enough for Arena?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:25
|
|
|
Ciprian Maricon posted:
This is a great point. Here in CR people often complain that 3 teams (Saprissa, Herediano and Alajuelense) take turns to dominate the league and the other 9 teams in the first division range from inconsistent, to poor to hot stinky garbage (such as my local club). Every promising player is sniped by one of the big 3 and then there is showcased for foreign clubs to pick up, but the teams with money and infrastructure help them develop and have systems in place to show players to scouts. I'm not 100% sure how it works but it seems to me that MLS clubs don't really have a motivation to sell players abroad, do they?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:27
|
|
|
"If we had Lebron James and Odell Beckham play a few qualifiers we'd be in the World Cup!" - Casual US fan who missed out on crucial formative years Bogan Krkic posted:who are the best american players currently? thanks Pulisic is good. He actually starts on a good team. Yedlin, Brooks, and Johnson are decent because they play often enough for teams that aren't completely lovely. After that is a crapshoot, honestly. (Yedlin and Brooks have been hurt and Arena decided that Johnson was hurt as well and put Jorge Villafana at RB, where almost every successful attack against the US came from.) I mean, Pulisic is pretty much the only one that is pretty unanimous. e. Fabian Johnson not being included in this last int'l break was idiotic, and more of Arena's stubbornness. At least Brooks is actually hurt. Yedlin came back the last two games and was loads better than Graham Zusi, but that dude's a wasted roster spot anyways. FartingBedpost fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Oct 11, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:29
|
|
|
Simone Poodoin posted:This is a great point. Here in CR people often complain that 3 teams (Saprissa, Herediano and Alajuelense) take turns to dominate the league and the other 9 teams in the first division range from inconsistent, to poor to hot stinky garbage (such as my local club). Every promising player is sniped by one of the big 3 and then there is showcased for foreign clubs to pick up, but the teams with money and infrastructure help them develop and have systems in place to show players to scouts. There's not really enough of a passionate history of fandom for these clubs so if there wasn't parity, you'd probably end of up losing a fuckload of the organizations because they wouldn't be sustainable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
Fat Lowtax posted:Just looking at the money and the international market for players and the fact that an average MLS squad player makes as much as like a cop or a teacher, there's no reason for a talented multi-sport kid who's getting good advice to pick soccer, right? Unless he's super tiny. Nobody thinks in these terms at that age
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
Dirk Pitt posted:Lol that Klinsmann is being blamed. As if the 12 MLS guys over 30 playing yesterday would’ve done better with four years of Arena during the formative 26-30 years of age. At least the Germans Klinsmann brought in were good. Everything else he did to U.S. Soccer was recidivist. Who are they going to hire once Arena is fired? Or is that a discussion for after Gulati steals the next election? sportsgenius86 posted:Klinsmann's plan, per se, was a good one. Klinsmann's managerial tactics were dogshit and trying to pound a square peg into a round hole over and over again was an exercise in futility. That's exactly what the guy in his role has 4 years to do and is supposed to do. If MLS is the domestic league, he's supposed to throw his weight in at it. And they had the skills in 2014, but for some mysterious reason held back to dogshit play except for about an hour total of the 4 games, when they played like a real side.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:37
|
|
|
rare Magic card l00k posted:the MLS system is designed to put the best young talent on poo poo teams, so they practice with the shittiest players and learn from the shittiest coaches in the league, they have to compete for starting spots against said poo poo players and it also spreads the best players out among everyone so nobody has to learn how to play against a team that is full of actual good players in order to reach success its all true lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:39
|
|
|
So let me get this straight, Klinsmann told American players to leave MLS and go play elsewhere to develop and people got mad, and then they fired him and put someone in charge who only picked MLS players and then they failed to qualify for the World Cup out of the second-worst continent? Is this what happened?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:42
|
|
|
vyelkin posted:So let me get this straight, Klinsmann told American players to leave MLS and go play elsewhere to develop and people got mad, and then they fired him and put someone in charge who only picked MLS players and then they failed to qualify for the World Cup out of the second-worst continent? Is this what happened? Not really.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
Simone Poodoin posted:
None. The league structure is designed to at best discourage it, the labyrinth of roster rules complicate the already immense challenge of replacing a key player and even if you did develop a great player once you sell them abroad the league takes chunks of your money and gives it to other teams because the league is not interested in competing or development. Just the next set of financials that can be used to convince the next idiot with too much money to join in on the Ponzi scheme. There is serious incentive to just build a team of middling journeymen and spend big on Marquee players who (the theory goes) get butts in seats and sell merchandise. Surprise surprise, it's a strategy lots of teams follow. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Oct 11, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:48
|
|
|
skasion posted:Has Alexi Lalas dared to come out and be a smug oval office about this yet he tweeted that this is the all the players' faults and is arguing with people who say this is the MLS/USSF/system's fault in one of his responses, he says younger soccer players are getting everything handed to them and aren't doing anything with it so yes
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:49
|
|
|
I will probably be mocked for this, but gently caress it whatever here is my take. 1. Bruce Arena's Squad Selection He hosed up big time, just by actually following MLS, which like half the people posting these hot-takes don't could tell he is a grumpy old gently caress who hates doing anything new. His teams are built of okay(ish) veterans covered over with high priced DP's the MLS kept pushing into the Galaxy. He had his guys and pretty much ignored the academy and never gave chances to the guys coming out of it, I mean LA was hosed up this year because they pretty much decided to go all in on academy players who never got bled into the first team for the last ~5 years by Brucey. So right off the bat Arena is going to call in the ~veterans~ who have been poo poo-clogging along for years without giving time to the handfuls of US MLS players who aren't old time USMNT on the back slope of their careers, or people he coached in LA (Cough Zardes/Gonzalez). Sure he might give them a 10 minute cameo at the January Camp or Gold Cup, but lol if they are ever going to earn serious minutes. This squad selection was loving awful, 1. Zardes he has been loving useless for years in MLS, there are legitimately a dozen better uncapped Americans in the league ffs he was injured when called up and wasn't loving replaced. 2. WTF is with calling in DeMarcus Beasley? That guy is ancient he loving tried to retire already and we keep calling him in... there are better loving American leftbacks they just haven't had ~20 years of USMNT caps!~ 3. Gonzalez, yes bring the guy who has been consistently poo poo for the USA since 2013 Gold Cup, and leave a guy who plays in the EPL on the bench behind him. Also don't call in a guy like Miazga who is supposedly playing reasonably well for Vitesse. 4. Nagbe has some good skills, but is like the meekest least fired up player I have ever seen. 5. Call in Benny Feilhaber who is an rear end in a top hat and hasn't been playing great this year and hasn't been on the USMNT in any real capacity since like 2010? 6. Wondo... seriously I don't think I have to explain this. 7. Finally loving Goalkeeper Howard is past it and has been mediocre in MLS, Guzan hasn't been good for years but he is playing better than Howard in our lovely league and wtf with Rimando he is older than both of them. He could have picked better MLS players, but no he picked a poo poo ton of old and out of form guys who made these last matches an uphill battle. 2. Bruce Arena's lovely tactics All we had to do was not lose the game, regardless of player competence he should have loving rotated the squad and played an actual defensive formation. He brought a poo poo ton of D-Mids and Centerbacks to these games and pretty much used Bradley exclusively as our only defensive midfielder. This worked okay when Panama had to open themselves up to score because if they beat us they would advance to the World Cup, which made playing a bunch of "attacking" options like a pair of loving wingers in Nagbe & Arriola as central midfielders. Both of whom are lovely defenders. Put this midfield on short rest and in front of the slow and useless Omar Gonzalez and a geriatric Howard of course we were gonna get hosed. If we had like Dax McCarty who isn't a great player in midfield he is at least competent enough to loving mark that guy Alvin Jones who couldn't even make the cut on an MLS side (he trialed at a few clubs this summer). Instead he was wide open to send longshots at Howard whose reflexes have atrophied to the point that he could barely make those saves. So Bruce Arena failed abysmally on just understanding what needed to be done this game and set his players up to fail. Sure those players aren't good, but FFS they still should have been able to at least eek out a draw if he did the bare minimum of even just rotating the guys who started on the weekend. 3. Arrogance The USA acted like we were going to stomp our way through the Qualifiers, at no point did the media ever point out "Well this game is a must win" it was always "Well if we want to make the World Cup we should win this, but we might get lucky and other teams will gently caress up". The US player pool for CONCAF is actually pretty good, but US Soccer and the media which barely pays attention keeps hyping them up as "We can challenge Argentina" (lolno). So we go into matches expecting an easy win, and the other team wants to be giant killers and show up the uppity US players. Some of whom think they are hot poo poo because like Bradley they cashed in an okay European career for millions in DP money. Media and others including myself kept sucking off the USMNT saying "Wow they are so talented and good of course they should win" then most of them put in no loving effort and act shocked when they lose to shittier teams that seem to care. loving Omar Gonzalez said "This was supposed to be a celebration" in an interview after the game... no you dumb gently caress you celebrate after the game is won not on the field while your scoring an own goal. This exemplified in Bradley, people keep acting like instead of a decent but flawed player he is this world class d-mid who could totally ball in Europe, but came back to MLS to lead it into MLS 2.0 or whatever the gently caress they want to call it. He was handed a starting spot on the team by daddy, and played regardless of his ups and downs and whether other players in the pool might be better until he was cemented in as literally the only guy we have to play D-mid. Jermaine Jones is washed up now, but in retrospect he was loving spot on when he said "Its never Bradley's fault" everyone kept coming up with excuses every time the captain hosed up and blamed others. He never had to fight for his national team position, and once he no longer had to fight for his club position like he did in Europe he turned to poo poo. Then Dempsey was stripped of his captaincy and it was handed to Bradley on a platter and he continued to gently caress up. You could say Dempsey has issues, but at least he had a little bit of grit the dude climbed from a no-name redneck from Texas to playing at Furman University to the EPL and scoring at world cups. He had some grit even if he wasn't technically a world class player. Instead of being underdogs who were going to scrap out wins, the culture seemed to shift to well were good enough to win and that's okay! 4. Youth Development We seem to have hit a bump where MLS is big enough that it isn't a completely terrible league. (People will probably disagree with me on this) So you can finally be a good enough player and eek out a decent 6 figure income by being an MLS player, there really is no incentive for say mid-tier talents to try to jump ship to Europe and catch on in say Sweden and try to play your way into an actual good league, or forgo MLS Academies/College etc. and do what Pulisic did and take the gamble you could be good enough to end up in Dortmund's first team. In the previous generation MLS was clearly garbage so if you wanted a chance at success most decent players jumped ship to Europe ASAP, now eh its not necessary. So the US player pool is way broader than it once was, because say... Jordan Morris or something I guess ends up an actual professional in Seattle, instead of say going to Werder Bremen and having like a 10% chance of becoming a Bundesliga quality striker, who should run train on CONCAF instead of a maybe sort of good enough to beat CONCAF teams guy. The MLS academies still suck, but it seems like the most recent U-17 and U-20 teams are doing decently, which might mean the system is working. It certainly seems like younger guys are actually thinking they are good enough to take a chance in Europe. McKennie jumped ship from Dallas pretty much ASAP and that Sargent guy also is going to Werder unlike Morris. While not a solution, I think MLS and the DA academies are at a point where they are okay enough that some of those talents have a chance at actually making it to Europe. The key then becomes actually letting them go if they want to instead of trying to hold onto them. rare Magic card l00k posted:the MLS system is designed to put the best young talent on poo poo teams, so they practice with the shittiest players and learn from the shittiest coaches in the league, they have to compete for starting spots against said poo poo players and it also spreads the best players out among everyone so nobody has to learn how to play against a team that is full of actual good players in order to reach success I think this is pretty on point too, the best MLS teams pretty much don't ever bother playing young Americans, so the ones who do get actual game time in MLS are the ones on the shittiest teams under the worst coaches. Then they turn into serviceable players in the league and end up earning call ups to the national team (if there is room for them behind all the old veterans with ~50+ caps) and blocking out young players either fighting for spots on actually decent MLS teams or in Europe from actually getting a chance with the senior team. Then if these journeymen type guys go to Europe, they are too old to really improve and just kinda sit on benches or bounce around bad teams for a few years until they get tired of not playing and return to MLS for more money than before. I do think this loss hopefully pushes guys like Tyler Adams, Andrew Carleton, Acosta etc. to make the jump to Europe and actually try like the earlier generations of USMNT players. 5. USSF Just Doesn't give a gently caress as long as the spice flows. Luckily they just lost a poo poo ton of money because the USA just failed to qualify, so even if Gulati doesn't care the board and companies with a stake in soccer in the USA are probably looking to shake things up. Hopefully they will turn this to unfucking minor league soccer in this country and fixing pay to play instead of doubling down on MLS only policies and just sucking themselves off about how it is so bad that we lost the 2022 WC bid to Qatar. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Oct 11, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:54
|
|
|
Gyasi Zardes is maybe the worst player I've ever seen in a USA jersey. I'd rather have Eddie Johnson.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:55
|
|
|
I think "systemic rot" is a good phrase for the USSF, and it should be used often.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
wicka posted:Gyasi Zardes is maybe the worst player I've ever seen in a USA jersey. I'd rather have Eddie Johnson. Eddie was at least good enough to get to the EPL to fail miserably.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
sportsgenius86 posted:There's not really enough of a passionate history of fandom for these clubs so if there wasn't parity, you'd probably end of up losing a fuckload of the organizations because they wouldn't be sustainable. "superteams" sell tons of tickets and boost the image (and revenues) of the league. the Warriors are proving this in basketball, not that they needed to, when the Bulls, Lakers, and Celtics proved that in decades gone past. tell me legitimately if you think the NBA would be more successful if they had a stricter salary cap and almost every team was the same level of middling-to-decent
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 22:58
|
|
|
TwoStepBoog posted:he tweeted that this is the all the players' faults and is arguing with people who say this is the MLS/USSF/system's fault
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 23:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 06:14 |
|
|
Crazy Ted posted:Well in some respects he's not wrong because the US has sent teams to the knockout stages of the World Cup with less talent and a way worse development setup than what they have now. Well yeah, we did what outmatched American teams always do and won games on hustle and grit alone. We started sucking the second we began to think we might be actually talented.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2017 23:04
|
|