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One aspect of US sports that works against pro/rel and youth development in particular is the complete and total lack of loyalty owners and franchises show to a city or area. Team's not making money? Just move it somewhere else! gently caress these hicks, I'll get a new town to build us a stadium and poo poo and just go there. The owners are scum, like in all sports, and there's no reason for them to invest in training facilities beyond what they need for the first team because they'll be out of there as soon as a better deal comes along. Something's got to happen in parallel to the league, where the academies are separate from the clubs and have a permanent base to start reaching kids and youth coaches.
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Oct 12, 2017 22:12
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greazeball posted:One aspect of US sports that works against pro/rel and youth development in particular is the complete and total lack of loyalty owners and franchises show to a city or area. Team's not making money? Just move it somewhere else! gently caress these hicks, I'll get a new town to build us a stadium and poo poo and just go there. The owners are scum, like in all sports, and there's no reason for them to invest in training facilities beyond what they need for the first team because they'll be out of there as soon as a better deal comes along. Something's got to happen in parallel to the league, where the academies are separate from the clubs and have a permanent base to start reaching kids and youth coaches. This only happens because all these leagues are closed systems in which there's no way for a new city to get involved without moving an existing franchise. It's automatically solved if pro/rel is implemented.
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Oct 12, 2017 22:16
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wicka posted:I still don't really understand why people insist on pretending that any argument in favor of pro/rel includes "let's implement pro/rel literally tomorrow and see what happens." It's a long-term goal that requires a large amount of work, the bulk of which would entail funding and support the second division until the day comes that those clubs are stable enough to be promotion candidates. Simply saying "in the future, second division teams can be directly promoted to MLS" would go a loooooooooong way towards them establishing dedicated fanbases, which is really the #1 obstacle to them being financially stable at present. Most cities don't give a gently caress about their NASL and USL teams for the same reason that AAA clubs don't sell out 40,000 seat stadiums: no one cares about permanent minor league teams. Okay thats fair, if it is a future goal I understand. My issue with the idea is a ton of people seem to think if we do it tomorrow it will fix the system. If it becomes our goal is to have a functional Pyramid that could experiment with it by say 2026 then yeah I am alot more sympathetic to the idea of Pro-Rel than instituting it next year or tomorrow. Gigi Galli posted:hard to argue with this. As a Sounders fan I am sincerely embarrassed. G-Hawk posted:Maybe a bunch of players over the age of 30 who have returned to the MLS from Europe for a pay day and last few seasons should not be the players on the national team. The U.S. has a generation gap and Arena took that even further by leaning on just about the oldest squad he could. I guess there are many things you can criticize about the MLS structure but really the majority of the national team should not be playing in MLS anyway. I think that is changing, compared to the last few years there seem to be more prospects in the U-20 range making a stab at Europe. I know this isn't a good excuse, but part of the problem is these ~30 something guys coming back to MLS from Europe are still getting called in regardless of how well they are playing at the club level. Like Besler in these last two games... he isn't even the best center back on his team, yet because he has ~experience~ he keeps getting called in despite the fact he isn't that great at the international level. He also is an example of not really having ambition because if I recall he was supposedly getting offers after 2014 WC from European Clubs, but unlike Poodin's favorite Costa Rican Giancarlo Gonzalez he took a pay-raise in MLS instead of challenging himself in Europe. The frustrating thing is performance in MLS doesn't seem like it matters for the USMNT because whether or not they are top quality players, guys who have good years in MLS almost never break into the USMNT, guys like say Lee Nguyen in 2014 he played really loving good... I think he got a 15 minute cameo in January friendlies once the USA was down like 4 goals... and never got called up again. Instead we kept playing Bradley as a #10 where he was incredibly poo poo, until we just kind of gave up and went back to a 4-4-2. Also guys like loving Gyasi Zardes kept getting called in despite not playing well for three loving years in the league he was a lock starter under both Klinsman and Arena??? Same goes for the Goalkeeper Pool, instead of actually reaching out to goalkeepers playing well the call ups always were almost always loving Guzan/Howard and Rimando. Once you got into the USMNT club, you didn't get your "rights" revoked until you started talking poo poo (J. Jones, Feilhaber) or completely fell apart due to age (Beckerman). The one good thing Klinsman did when he first took over in 2011 was he actually turned over the roster and brought new people into the system be they the dreaded German-Americans or guys who were actually playing well in MLS. The problem was he stopped doing that sometime after 2014 and just kept calling in the same players as they got older and older... like he tinkered around, but mostly just moved "his guys" around in random formation shifts and didn't really bring in much new blood... like Wood, Zardes & Yedlin are legitimately the only young(er) guys who broke into the first team under Klinsman. My only final comment is on guys like Bradley and Jozy. Jozy I have a little more respect for, he just wasn't good enough he tried like 3 times to be a La Liga/EPL forward and fell on his rear end and was bad, it was only after he completely poo poo the bed at S'land that he gave up and came back to America. I have no idea if even places like the Erediivse or whatever where he actually played well even offered for him to come back. Bradley instead is a loser, he was fighting for a starting spot at Roma and gave up once MLS waved a paycheck at him. Bradley never had to fight for his spot in the USMNT that his daddy handed to him, and after every bad performance idiots like me would defend him. It never was his fault, only the players around him yet he ended up being the constant. He was only ever pushed on the club level and once he took the money in MLS he didn't even have to fight for a club spot so he just got lazy and entitled, and being captain that attitude of "Unwarranted Self-Importance" contaminated the entire squad. He also chokes once you place a modicum of pressure on him, he sucked in the MLS Cup vs Seattle and has blown like every PK I have seen him take in a knockout tourney. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 22:27
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Jack2142 posted:S'land
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Oct 12, 2017 22:31
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wicka posted:It's quite literally exactly what's happening.
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Oct 12, 2017 22:58
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Jack Wagner has some things to say http://www.trinidadexpress.com/20171011/news/jack-feels-like-partying
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Oct 12, 2017 23:15
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wicka posted:This only happens because all these leagues are closed systems in which there's no way for a new city to get involved without moving an existing franchise. It's automatically solved if pro/rel is implemented. Not at all, look at Wimbledon. Promotion and relegation had nothing to do with that, they just wanted a new stadium and less competition for ticket sales. The only difference is that English sports culture just doesn't accept that at all and now MK Dons are still a pariah almost 15 years later. Clubs will move to wherever the next short term cash injection will come from in the US and people will forget about it in no time. Like, I don't understand how more people aren't absolutely flipping their poo poo about the Chargers in LA, it's just business. Americans only like winners and if Chicago's team plays in division 2 for 5 years and Real Salt Lake are playing division 1 but in their same old stadium, you bet they'd move if they get the chance. And if Chicago one day end up with 2 div 2 teams, who cares? Montgomery will build a stadium and somebody will go there. But the catchment areas will have to be so large that kids and their families will have to relocate to actually train with other good kids and that poo poo won't fly (and wouldn't get built anyway) if the teams are just going to leave after a few years.
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Oct 12, 2017 23:22
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G-Hawk posted:MLS has dramatically improved over the last 10 years much less the last 20 on pretty much every front. It has a ton of work still yes but its made major progress Uh no it is actually orse than ever now. MLS teams used to win th CONCACAF champions league.
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Oct 12, 2017 23:22
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Isn't promotion and relegation literally impossible without blowing up the MLS completely? No current owner would ever go for it.
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Oct 12, 2017 23:25
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blue footed boobie posted:Isn't promotion and relegation literally impossible without blowing up the MLS completely? No current owner would ever go for it. Not literally, but there is definitely a waiting period. Once these next expansion teams come in would be the ideal time to put a timetable in. You’re right that most owners wouldn’t go for it, though. Well, the Blanks of the world might.
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Oct 12, 2017 23:28
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How the gently caress can you go from watching your team be the dominant force in the confederation to missing a world cup and think MLS is better? DC United was at one point good enough to be a top team in Liga MX, now not a single MLS team could handle the level of play in Mexico. And Liga MX is GETTING WORSE everyday. Like if all you care about is how many stadiums there are and number of teams and poseur supporter culture then yeah it's "better" but the on the field product is at worst stagnant and at best regressing with every expansion. MLS is all flash and no substance, the trappings of a serious league staffed by garbagemen. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 23:48
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There's nothing wrong with the way your league is structured now. The issue isn't promotion and relegation. Your problems stem from non-existent youth development. Poland has an atrocious league, yet there are Poles playing for top and mid-level European clubs. Most of our talented youth simply bypasses the league structure entirely or leaves their senior teams soon after making their debuts. They're mostly scouted away while still playing for youth teams. We may never achieve anything in club football ever again, but paradoxically our academies are doing better than ever, and the national team reflects that.
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Oct 12, 2017 23:53
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Ciprian Maricon posted:How the gently caress can you go from watching your team be the dominant force in the confederation to missing a world cup and think MLS is better? Because the quality of a domestic league and the results of the national team in world cup qualifying are not the same thing? Most of the players who were key parts of being "the dominant force in the confederation" were not playing in MLS. (With the major, and then oft criticized exactly for playing in MLS exception of Landon Donovan). And MLS is better in terms of quality of play largely because of the quality of non-American players in it now versus the past. DC United was not good enough to be a top team in Liga MX unless maybe you're talking about the 1990s when MLS was on the brink of collapse, didn't even follow the international rules of the sport, had teams folding, and was basically relying on 3 billionaires to exist. quote:There's nothing wrong with the way your league is structured now. The issue isn't promotion and relegation. Your problems stem from non-existent youth development. Poland has an atrocious league, yet there are Poles playing for top and mid-level European clubs. Most of our talented youth simply bypasses the league structure entirely or leaves their senior teams soon after making their debuts. They're mostly scouted away while still playing for youth teams. We may never achieve anything in club football ever again, but paradoxically our academies are doing better than ever, and the national team reflects that. G-Hawk fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 00:00
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mackintosh posted:There's nothing wrong with the way your league is structured now. The issue isn't promotion and relegation. Your problems stem from non-existent youth development. Poland has an atrocious league, yet there are Poles playing for top and mid-level European clubs. Most of our talented youth simply bypasses the league structure entirely or leaves their senior teams soon after making their debuts. They're mostly scouted away while still playing for youth teams. We may never achieve anything in club football ever again, but paradoxically our academies are doing better than ever, and the national team reflects that. good youth development requires a healthy lower division(s) and that might require p/r to happen e) if anything the fact that our owners are at least rich enough to throw some money around might be a problem, see: US players getting big checks to play at home against awful competition while their skills atrophy. we might actually be better if our league was poor as poo poo Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 00:02
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G-Hawk posted:MLS has dramatically improved over the last 10 years much less the last 20 on pretty much every front. It has a ton of work still yes but its made major progress For those of you taking notes at home, this is an A+ example of MLS apologists being willfully ignorant and intentionally misreading and misunderstanding what you're saying. The fact that MLS is stagnating and barely growing now has nothing to do with the fact that it has improved over the course of 10-20 years. Ratings are flat, attendance is flat, level of play isn't improving, etc. Again, this just isn't a disputable fact, yet here we are. greazeball posted:Not at all, look at Wimbledon. As is this. The one go-to example of a team being moved outside of the US doesn't prove a drat thing. blue footed boobie posted:Isn't promotion and relegation literally impossible without blowing up the MLS completely? No current owner would ever go for it. Not impossible, but it'd be very difficult to do. And regardless, MLS should probably be blown up completely. The irony, of course, is that the current MLS clubs would be worth orders of magnitudes more in the long run, even if they got relegated, in a properly run system. mackintosh posted:There's nothing wrong with the way your league is structured now. The issue isn't promotion and relegation. Your problems stem from non-existent youth development. As my good friend Mr. Villeneuve has already pointed out, the lack of a stable and healthy lower division is exactly what precludes proper youth academies from being built. Even if those things somehow come about through MLS, that's still like 24? academies. England has hundreds, in a far smaller area.
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Oct 13, 2017 00:27
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I'm a huge critic of MLS being poo poo but no dude, yes, DC United could have done really well in the Liga Mayor of the time. Now it's different, it'd not año MLS being bad either. The restructuring and loads of money that started going to Mexican teams in the 2000s means that Liga MX leverages resources that dwarfs what MLS could do now, but back then, yes DC United was good enough to beat the likes of Morelia
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Oct 13, 2017 00:35
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I get that youth development is a problem. I live in one of the poorest states in the United States. New Mexico has very broad wealth inequality (government scientists and old Spanish money keep it that way too). There are makeshift soccer fields in a lot of areas and a huge Hispanic population. You would think that soccer would thrive here, but it doesn’t. That’s because the cheapest youth soccer programs aren’t good (and mostly aren’t cheap) and the “elite” soccer programs cost thousands a year. Poorer kids don’t have a chance to build skills until high school (lol) which is still not good. Basketball is better and more accessible, but our lack of state money means no AAU and no real skill building. Which leaves football. For a sport that should cost a lot more money, football is readily accessible for poorer kids, which gives more kids a chance to play. We have more NFL (4) and MLB (6) players than mediocre soccer players (1) and the whole state is soccer crazy. The fact that kids who aren’t rich start skill building at the age of 14/15 is atrocious. I’m a huge Pro/Reg guy, as evidenced by the above posts, but I think some of you guys criticizing that idea are missing that we know what the real problem is, too. E. Also, even if youth academies in MLS are better, the closest ones from NM, in any direction, are a minimum of 8 hours away. FartingBedpost fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 00:44
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FartingBedpost posted:I’m a huge Pro/Reg guy, as evidenced by the above posts, but I think some of you guys criticizing that idea are missing that we know what the real problem is, too. E: I missed the point because I'm a too-angry retard. wicka fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 00:45
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wicka posted:E: I missed the point because I'm a too-angry retard. It’s all good, I worded it like a dude from the 47th lowest-educated State.
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Oct 13, 2017 00:52
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FartingBedpost posted:It’s all good, I worded it like a dude from the 47th lowest-educated State. I'm from Indiana
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Oct 13, 2017 01:18
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Ciprian Maricon posted:I'm a huge critic of MLS being poo poo but no dude, yes, DC United could have done really well in the Liga Mayor of the time. Well, there is also the fact that MLS spends money in absolutely the worst way. One or two ridiculously overpaid players in the middle of a bunch of players making 50 to 100k. Like, no other league on earth would pay Michael Bradley 6.5 million a year, and I am pretty sure that is substantially more than what he made at Roma.
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Oct 13, 2017 01:47
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wicka posted:For those of you taking notes at home, this is an A+ example of MLS apologists being willfully ignorant and intentionally misreading and misunderstanding what you're saying. The fact that MLS is stagnating and barely growing now has nothing to do with the fact that it has improved over the course of 10-20 years. Ratings are flat, attendance is flat, level of play isn't improving, etc. Again, this just isn't a disputable fact, yet here we are. I don't really disagree with you about where MLS should end up, but its been making steady progress from near extinction in the early 00s to a stable league that is filling out nationally. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be upset over that.
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Oct 13, 2017 02:04
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G-Hawk posted:Ratings are higher mostly because they're on network tv this year (but still suck), and attendance is pretty definitely up and has been rising pretty consistently. Quality of play is harder to judge but it is up imo. I guess I don't know what you want to be different in MLS in less than a 10 year time span that has any possibility of happening. Is this a bit?
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Oct 13, 2017 02:14
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Guys I have a radical plan! Bring back Freddy Adu.
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Oct 13, 2017 02:34
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Arena out, Adu in
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Oct 13, 2017 02:37
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Have Adu and Jozy fight to the death.
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Oct 13, 2017 02:52
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wicka posted:Is this a bit? i dunno you still haven't answered my questions
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Oct 13, 2017 03:36
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skasion posted:Arena out, Adu in
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Oct 13, 2017 04:35
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Stay the course Trust the process We don’t need to do anything different Sub in DeMarcus Beasley and Graham Zusi
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Oct 13, 2017 06:49
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G-Hawk posted:i dunno you still haven't answered my questions Yes, I have. You still haven’t responded to what anyone is actually saying.
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Oct 13, 2017 11:00
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RideTheSpiral posted:This thread is a pro read for non Americans lol it really is op lol
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Oct 13, 2017 15:01
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https://twitter.com/ussoccer/status/918846407985057792
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Oct 13, 2017 15:37
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Lol
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Oct 13, 2017 15:41
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good
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Oct 13, 2017 15:50
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No other choice really.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:52
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Took way too long.
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Oct 13, 2017 16:36
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Dirk Pitt posted:Took way too long. Considering I was moderately worried it wouldn't happen at all, this is a good sign.
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Oct 13, 2017 16:41
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Gulati will not resign. https://twitter.com/thegoalkeeper/status/918863265458946048
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Oct 13, 2017 16:48
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Good thing there’s an election in four months!
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Oct 13, 2017 17:41
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So as a fan of Stoke and USMNT meltdowns can somebody explain why when you have a horrendous midfield and defense you are calling up but not playing Geoff Cameron, a good but not great mid table PL player who can do a job across the midfield and defense?
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Oct 13, 2017 17:46
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