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Mr Enderby posted:I'm not even Catholic and this got my blood pressure extremely high. Which parts in particular? The pedophile/homosexual hair-splitting (to put it lightly) was in pretty poor taste.
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Aug 17, 2018 10:33
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Which parts in particular? The pedophile/homosexual hair-splitting (to put it lightly) was in pretty poor taste. Yeah, also the "it wasn't rape because there was no penetration" was fairly hosed up.
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Aug 17, 2018 11:03
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StashAugustine posted:As also a Catholic, she may be the bride of Christ but she's also the daughter of the Roman empire
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Aug 17, 2018 12:01
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Mr Enderby posted:Yeah, also the "it wasn't rape because there was no penetration" was fairly hosed up.
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Aug 17, 2018 12:02
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HEY GUNS posted:so what are we? 
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Aug 17, 2018 13:03
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Which parts in particular? The pedophile/homosexual hair-splitting (to put it lightly) was in pretty poor taste. McCarrick was more useful in pushing the narrative about how the homocommunists are infiltrating the church, and now many weird trads are mad that the PA scandal derailed that.
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Aug 17, 2018 13:12
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indeed
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Aug 17, 2018 13:19
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Well this thread got depressing and I'm not even Catholic. https://i.imgur.com/yhyliyc.mp4
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Aug 17, 2018 14:02
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Cythereal posted:Well this thread got depressing and I'm not even Catholic. That kitten is from SSPX
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Aug 17, 2018 14:06
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JcDent posted:That kitten is from SSPX It's a rad cat for sure
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Aug 17, 2018 14:19
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Regarding the subject matter at hand, suffice it to say I think systemic abuse and cover-ups like this are a problem with authoritarian (not in the negative sense, just noting that the Catholic Church is a religious authority) organizations in general, and fundamentally in this regard no different from secular organizations. https://i.imgur.com/sNfY7R5.mp4
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Aug 17, 2018 14:37
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Cythereal posted:Regarding the subject matter at hand, suffice it to say I think systemic abuse and cover-ups like this are a problem with authoritarian (not in the negative sense, just noting that the Catholic Church is a religious authority) organizations in general, and fundamentally in this regard no different from secular organizations. absent evidence to the contrary i assume something's in the water over there
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Aug 17, 2018 14:53
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gently caress Bill Donahue
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Aug 17, 2018 15:21
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Cythereal posted:Regarding the subject matter at hand, suffice it to say I think systemic abuse and cover-ups like this are a problem with authoritarian (not in the negative sense, just noting that the Catholic Church is a religious authority) organizations in general, and fundamentally in this regard no different from secular organizations. I believe that religious organizations should be held to a higher standard. But yeah lol at people thinking this is a Catholic problem and ignoring what's going on in their public school systems. e: there have been many hot takes. this is certainly...a take. The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 15:44
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I am not emotionally prepared to read the grand jury report right now, so learning from the, uh, 'debunking' (may God bless Bill Donohue with sudden and perpetual laryngitis) that the accusations date back to WWII was helpful. 300 priests committing abuse over 300 years would be monstrous, don't get me wrong, but "since the 1940s" is better than "since the 1990s". Knowing that not all of the abusers were priests is marginally heartening too, in the "at least only some of these crimes also involved desecrating consecrated hands," in the same way that it's better if a tabernacle is destroyed by vandalism while empty rather than while it's not empty.Liquid Communism posted:That meme has taken root precisely because it keeps proving to be accurate JcDent posted:it still blows my mind that pedo priests somehow avoid getting actual secular sentences. Like, what makes them immune? I mean, in 2015, 13 years after the Boston Globe published its report on clerical sexual abuse, a visiting coach overheard a gymnast discussing Larry Nassar, was alarmed, and notified the gymnast's mother and USA Gymnastics officials. The USA Gymnastics response was to a) hire a workplace harassment investigator b) call the gymnast's mother and tell her that there was an investigation but it needed to be kept very quiet. The mother in question asked if Nassar had been reported to the authorities and was told he had been, so she didn't also report him. USA Gymnastics might have reacted more quickly if it hadn't been "uh yo I overheard a kid talking about a medical treatment and it sounded an awful lot like sexual abuse" or if Michigan State had ever informed them that there had been not only complaints, not only an internal university investigation, but a police report that resulted in specific disciplinary guidelines for Nassar to follow. They did eventually report him, a month later, but it took a whole year after that for the FBI to interview the gymnast's mother. So here we have a event that takes place after there's been a whole lot of (well-deserved!) media attention on the theme of "concealing sexual abuse is bad", in an institution that's totally secular, where employees are just employees, not members of a brotherhood or anything like that, and it takes a month before anybody calls the cops, and then it takes an entire calendar year for the FBI to even interview the (then-only-alleged) victim's mother. Now make the institution religious and its priests different from mere employees, make many of the victims boys (men are less likely to report and less likely to be believed), and move the event back before mandatory reporting laws. Suddenly it's not as unexpected that so many abusive priests avoid any criminal consequences.
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Aug 17, 2018 16:44
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The fact that law enforcement is not particularly good at sex abuse cases along with the rules in the US legal system about evidence is why we just dual track it here. You have credible allegations against you? Suspended from ministry, reported to law enforcement. We'll run our own investigation internally to determine whether or not we should laicize you. Then maybe you go to prison, maybe you don't, that's handled by the police dept. This is honestly how every diocese in the US should work.
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Aug 17, 2018 17:14
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zonohedron posted:Well, no, the ordination isn't the problem, the celibacy isn't the problem, the bad men doing bad things and being protected by other bad men is the problem. Public school teachers and physicians and scout leaders and swim coaches aren't anointed with holy oil and given spiritual authority over hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of people, but that hasn't prevented abuse by those people. Catholic priests may request to be laicized so that they may marry, and obviously regardless of marriage it's possible to have extramarital sex with a consenting partner, if "sex with a consenting partner" is what someone's looking for. Honestly you're correct. It has little to do with celibacy or ordination, and much to do with an entire infrastructure to hide and cover for bad actors. The reason I say the meme keeps relevant is simply that this is not new, and many of these accusations appear to have been known of within the diocese at the time this was last in the news.
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Aug 17, 2018 19:48
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Liquid Communism posted:and many of these accusations appear to have been known of within the diocese at the time this was last in the news. Right, and it was not just immoral, it was stupid to think that if abuse in Boston came to light, it wouldn't also be unearthed in Pennsylvania, but... 
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Aug 17, 2018 20:10
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Liquid Communism posted:Honestly you're correct. It has little to do with celibacy or ordination, and much to do with an entire infrastructure to hide and cover for bad actors. The reason I say the meme keeps relevant is simply that this is not new, and many of these accusations appear to have been known of within the diocese at the time this was last in the news. the institutional cover-up was awful and needs to be noticed and abolished. that being said, you don't want to know what these little pentecostal churches in the south get up to. it's not the power of having an institution, it's the fact that your first instinct is to keep everything away from the media and deal with poo poo in-house. or not deal with it, mostly.
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Aug 17, 2018 21:39
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JcDent posted:what? For many of them, it's the applicable statute of limitations - a statutory hard limit on how much time can pass between the commission of a crime and the prosecution of that crime. Many statutes of limitation for most sex crimes, and in particularly child sex crimes, have been extended and occasionally abolished in the last couple of decades. However, the ex post facto clause of the US constitution prohibits applying these extensions retroactively. Exactly how long a particular statute of limitation is and how it has changed varies state by state.
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Aug 17, 2018 22:02
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zonohedron posted:Well, no, the ordination isn't the problem, the celibacy isn't the problem, the bad men doing bad things and being protected by other bad men is the problem. Public school teachers and physicians and scout leaders and swim coaches aren't anointed with holy oil and given spiritual authority over hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of people, but that hasn't prevented abuse by those people. Catholic priests may request to be laicized so that they may marry, and obviously regardless of marriage it's possible to have extramarital sex with a consenting partner, if "sex with a consenting partner" is what someone's looking for. I've been trying to think of a way to put this sensitively for a few days, so please understand I'm not coming from a position of looking down my nose at Catholics here. I do think there is something inherent to the Catholic Church that has exacerbated the tendency toward cover ups. I don't think it's anything to do with celibacy. It's to do with an idea of magisterium. Other Churches might have ignored the complaints of victims, or downplayed them, or disbelieved them, or covered them up to protect the Church. But I do think there was something particularly Catholic about trying to set up an internal justice system, to deal with abusers without the oversight or knowledge of the secular authorities. For better or for worse, the Catholic Church behaves very differently from most other Churches. The Holy See has diplomats, it runs hospitals, it has a lawyers and bureaucrats. I feel like it was a lot easier for Catholic Bishops to feel that they were dealing with abusers, when they sent them off for a three month rest cure, before giving them a new diocese. You can find a lot of examples of predatory ministers in the Church of England, along with ample evidence their actions were overlooked, and it is sickening. What I'm not aware of, however, are filing cabinets of evidence of abuse that were meticulously collected and never turned over to the authorities. joat mon posted:For many of them, it's the applicable statute of limitations - a statutory hard limit on how much time can pass between the commission of a crime and the prosecution of that crime. I'm usually on the side of defendant's rights, but statute of limitation laws are bullshit. They do nothing to protect the wrongly accused (who lives in fear of being charged for specific crime they did not commit?) and protect a lot of real shits. In the UK we scrapped double jeopardy laws for the same reason, and it was a good thing.
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Aug 17, 2018 23:40
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what do cops and the catholic church have in common? pedophiles being protected by a notion of "brotherhood," an "us vs them" mentality that leads to things like covering up sex crimes. it's a problem of hierarchy and superiority, whether it's over laity or over civilians
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Aug 17, 2018 23:45
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Well, at least not everything's bad in the world. I have a conditional offer of employment finally, subject to a background check, and while it's part time I'll finally have a job again. I know I don't like to dwell on my personal issues in this thread, but thank you everyone who's been supportive. https://i.imgur.com/YdQ5Str.mp4
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Aug 18, 2018 00:43
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Well, congratulations. Good luck on actually getting the job.
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Aug 18, 2018 02:02
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lol at people owning cats like that one of my neighbors owns a bengal and he really...wants to move in here for some reason so I have to keep shooing him away and my right arm has so many claw marks on it that it looks like I loving fight off tigers for a living and I get comments about it while teaching CCD anyway good luck with your job
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Aug 18, 2018 03:37
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The Phlegmatist posted:lol at people owning cats like that Those aren't pets, fortunately. Those are caracals and the person who originally posted that said it's from a zoo. https://i.imgur.com/sNfY7R5.mp4
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Aug 18, 2018 04:07
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So today I got a letter from the parish I have apparently been living in for a year, and when I opened it the first thing that fell out is two bank transfer forms and the second thing that fell out is a letter addressed to "dear members of our parish". The letter has a bunch of bla bla about which group raised how much money, and then says "please give more money for church renovations". Contrast this with the last parish I moved into, which sent a little welcome letter, and sent the parish newsletter every couple of months. To be fair, that parish probably has a lot more people moving into it, but it bugs me that this one found out my address (but not the name I actually use) only when they wanted money. I feel like timing this right after negative headlines about the church is going to get them a couple of deregistrations from non-active members, not donations.
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Aug 18, 2018 07:43
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pidan posted:So today I got a letter from the parish I have apparently been living in for a year, and when I opened it the first thing that fell out is two bank transfer forms and the second thing that fell out is a letter addressed to "dear members of our parish". The letter has a bunch of bla bla about which group raised how much money, and then says "please give more money for church renovations". I'm so sorry to hear that - the church I left managed to do that too. The pastor there complained one day that he didn't have my address, but after I stopped turning up they magically were able to send begging letters too I'm told that you can restrict the release of your address to religious organisations at the Meldeamt, but maybe that's just the north here.
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Aug 18, 2018 10:07
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it's still happening !!! https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/...WT.nav=top-news
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Aug 18, 2018 17:39
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orthodoxy on point this is what every church should look like imo
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Aug 18, 2018 18:09
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The Phlegmatist posted:orthodoxy on point this is the right amount of gold, in my humble outsider's view
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Aug 18, 2018 19:19
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in all charity, what the gently caress saying that everyone needs to go to law enforcement first, even if you are just a witness to abuse: good saying that all the faithful should make reparations to the Immaculate Heart of Mary: very good blaming it on the lavender mafia: no
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Aug 18, 2018 20:45
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The Phlegmatist posted:blaming it on the lavender mafia: no maybe u should become orthodox my friend
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Aug 18, 2018 20:49
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The Phlegmatist posted:orthodoxy on point 'Tis a fine museum, but sure 'tis no barn, English
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Aug 18, 2018 21:54
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The Phlegmatist posted:orthodoxy on point Very good church indeed, but it could stand to lower the brightness.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:13
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CountFosco posted:Very good church indeed, but it could stand to lower the brightness. I'm surprised they could afford all those icons and not a higher resolution.
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Aug 18, 2018 22:37
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needs pews
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Aug 18, 2018 22:57
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it was constructed where alexander II got blown to bits, so it's basically the last gasp of tsarism turns out terrible people can make beautiful things. and then brutalism came about and then terrible people made terrible things.
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Aug 18, 2018 23:00
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i'll never understand tankies and their love of brutalism tho soviet monuments are pretty awesome tbh
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Aug 18, 2018 23:24
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Senju Kannon posted:i'll never understand tankies and their love of brutalism i love huge piles of concrete and i'm not a tankie
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Aug 18, 2018 23:27
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