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senju i do have you on ignore finally
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Oct 25, 2017 03:59
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Ceciltron posted:Black is white if the Church says it to be so, I grumble under my breath. except traditionalists are more like black is white if the church says it to be so but if the church says don't convert the jews then the church has gone too far and must be fought tooth and nail traditionalists your movement was started by antisemites that's gotta sting right also old catholics jumped ship cause of papal infallibility but they're cool with gays and trans people why don't you guys do the same? right a movement that says "whoa hey i think infallibility might be a bridge too far" is very different from one that says "jews need to be converted"
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Oct 25, 2017 04:00
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chernobyl kinsman posted:senju i do have you on ignore finally you realize this means i win right
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Oct 25, 2017 04:00
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i deeply dont care who he fucks or what he does with his life or whatever (and i agree with the thread's consensus, before it was closed because one guy said "pagan poo poo is not christian", that the obsession with sexuality is largely a 19th century artifact), but there's a limit to how trad you can claim to be while also ignoring church doctrine https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Social-Tolerance-Homosexuality-Fourteenth/dp/0226067114 this book doesn't work for the west because most of the examples are from greece and (you'll love this part) russia. also it's not a marriage because it's not about inheritance, which is what marriages are for. nevertheless i gift it to you https://www.amazon.com/Same-Sex-Uni...VD999C0K7EXW597 finally: 
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Oct 25, 2017 04:03
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i'm going to assume that those two posts are directed at me and pray for you
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Oct 25, 2017 04:03
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Senju Kannon posted:also old catholics jumped ship cause of papal infallibility but they're cool with gays and trans people why don't you guys do the same?
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Oct 25, 2017 04:04
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Just because we're forbidden to talk about abortion doesn't mean that the new thread needs be one.
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Oct 25, 2017 04:05
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HEY GAIL posted:wrong again. that doctrine's only from the 1200s AD. i know when the doctrine dates from. i think the modern emphasis on sexuality, and the often overwhelming focus on sexual sins above almost all others, is largely a victorian artifact.
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Oct 25, 2017 04:05
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chernobyl kinsman posted:friend my personal conscience doesn't come into it because i'm not the one who gets to decide whether one's communion is licit or illicit. if you're living in sin, as defined by the catholic church, then your communion is illicit (and a further sin), as defined by the catholic church
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Oct 25, 2017 04:05
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i know when the doctrine dates from. i think the modern emphasis on sexuality, and the often overwhelming focus on sexual sins above almost all others, is largely a victorian artifact.
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Oct 25, 2017 04:06
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going back after a few months away, yeah. that was my bad.HEY GAIL posted:rad, so why are you being so extremely late-victorian literally you brought up the gay poster and i responded it to it with what current catechism is, then repeatedly stated that i dont care who he is or what he does with his life
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Oct 25, 2017 04:06
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chernobyl kinsman posted:if you dont care then whatever, i dont care if you dont care Lutha Mahtin posted:do you really see nothing wrong with that awful post chernobyl kinsman posted:not doctrinally no, i can't speak for your moral position quoting a non-me piece of poo poo
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Oct 25, 2017 04:06
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chernobyl kinsman posted:going back after a few months away, yeah. that was my bad. edit: Bel_Canto has been Catholic all his life. His family is Boston Irish. They've been Catholic since the Irish were converted. Don't you think they've loving got this and don't need someone who only now has looked up latin masses dot jpeg to tell them how to act?
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Oct 25, 2017 04:07
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HEY GAIL posted:but old catholics have the aesthetic sense of warm oatmeal i didn't say they were perfect. i didn't even say they were good. i said they were cool with gays
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Oct 25, 2017 04:08
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HEY GAIL posted:mote, beam bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem (also i confessed and did penance for my lax-ness, and can therefore receive communion licitly again) also, when i asked if it was okay to have non-liberal beliefs in here, the honest answer would have been 'no' chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 04:09
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What can anyone hope to achieve from this argument?
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Oct 25, 2017 04:09
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chernobyl kinsman posted:bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem and if non liberal beliefs aren't cool, i'd be the first to go. edit: again, if you admit this was invented in the victorian era, why believe it?
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Oct 25, 2017 04:10
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chernobyl kinsman posted:bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem you're a cowardly little bitch who hides behind things you obviously don't even believe in. there is no universe in which you could even plausibly claim to be a christian
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Oct 25, 2017 04:11
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HEY GAIL posted:edit: Bel_Canto has been Catholic all his life. His family is Boston Irish. They've been Catholic since the Irish were converted. Don't you think they've loving got this and don't need someone who only now has looked up latin masses dot jpeg to tell them how to act? i dunno, i wasn't even talking to the guy, nor have i ever. why'd you bring him up in an argument that you started with me, then? HEY GAIL posted:and if non liberal beliefs aren't cool, i'd be the first to go. would you feel better if i said 'progressive' chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 04:12
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i'm going to assume that those two posts are directed at me and pray for you you know it doesn't count if you're being passive aggressive, right? chernobyl kinsman posted:bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem Ceciltron posted:What can anyone hope to achieve from this argument? the sweet sweet rush of righteous anger
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Oct 25, 2017 04:13
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Senju Kannon posted:the sweet sweet rush of righteous anger I don't feel that anymore. I only get sad. I haven't felt that way in a few years. Kind of miss the rush.
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Oct 25, 2017 04:14
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Ceciltron posted:I don't feel that anymore. I only get sad. I haven't felt that way in a few years. Kind of miss the rush. that just means you need bigger and bigger doses. just go to trump's twitter feed and give it a few minutes. be careful not to od tho
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Oct 25, 2017 04:14
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chernobyl kinsman posted:not doctrinally no, i can't speak for your moral position chernobyl kinsman posted:senju i do have you on ignore finally chernobyl kinsman posted:i'm going to assume that those two posts are directed at me and pray for you you're being incredibly passive-aggressive it's not that your viewpoints are unwelcome here (not to name names but I think Worthleast and zonohedron are probably in the same ballpark as you), you're picking unproductive internet fights respectfully, please be less combative, you're not going to convince anyone to change their beliefs or opinions and it's only serving to piss people off
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Oct 25, 2017 04:15
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Senju Kannon posted:it's not even okay to have liberal beliefs as far as i'm concerned. leftist only. 
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Oct 25, 2017 04:15
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Pellisworth posted:you're being incredibly passive-aggressive leftist only, no items, final destination
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Oct 25, 2017 04:17
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Pellisworth posted:(not to name names but I think Worthleast and zonohedron are probably in the same ballpark as you)
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Oct 25, 2017 04:17
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Senju Kannon posted:leftist only, no items, final destination
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Oct 25, 2017 04:18
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HEY GAIL posted:again, if you admit this was invented in the victorian era i do not believe this, and have made my views on the matter quite clear, i think: quote:i know when the doctrine dates from. i think the modern emphasis on sexuality, and the often overwhelming focus on sexual sins above almost all others, is largely a victorian artifact. e: also, you're not seriously suggesting that the church's prohibition on homosexuality only dates from the 1200s, are you?
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Oct 25, 2017 04:18
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chernobyl kinsman posted:e: also, you're not seriously suggesting that the church's prohibition on homosexuality only dates from the 1200s, are you?
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Oct 25, 2017 04:20
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chernobyl kinsman posted:bud i haven't personally condemned the guy nor was i the one to bring up gay issues. i'm sorry that you don't like the fact that catholic catechism teaches that a non-celibate gay guy can't licitly receive communion but that's not my problem you can have whatever views you want just don't be a jerk about it
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Oct 25, 2017 04:20
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HEY GAIL posted:do you know how loving gay the literati were in the 1000s? it was one sin just like any other, and less serious than many. Read a book. yeah i'm a medievalist focusing on the high middle ages. i know it was just one sin among many. the last time i heard a (modern, non-medieval) priest speak on it, he classed as just one sin among many, equivalent to living with a partner before you're married, which i agree with. as i have now repeatedly said, i think the extreme emphasis on homosexuality (and sex in general) as an ultra-sin is a victorian artifact. i'm not trying to be combative - is there a particular part of that you disagree with, or are you just looking for reasons to be mad at me? Pellisworth posted:you can have whatever views you want just don't be a jerk about it i really dont think that's true unless you class 'not being a jerk about it' as 'never mentioning it at all'
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Oct 25, 2017 04:22
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anyway in other news i downloaded an app that helps me read kanji so i'm gonna try my best to read through this book on takagi kenmyo's essay, my socialism. it's part of a project i'm doing to write a paper comparing the lives, deaths, and legacies of oscar romero and takagi kenmyo. in case you couldn't tell from that context takagi kenmyo was a leftist buddhist priest who was arrested by the meiji government on trumped up treason charges and eventually killed himself in prison after losing his family, his position, and being abandoned by his temple organization. i wanted to look at the ways people in different historical circumstances, from different religions, turn towards working for liberation and the ways in which they utilize their religious tradition to justify their actions and condemn the actions of their mainstream contemporaries. i have a lot of good resources for the high treason incident and for takagi kenmyo (tho obviously i would want more than i have but that's the problem with niche japanese stuff) but surprisingly do not have anything for oscar romero beyond jon sobrino's writings on him and his legacy. anyone have any suggestions for books on el salvador's historical situation during his life? i can find collected sermons and stuff pretty easy but history is not my strong suit
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Oct 25, 2017 04:24
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i'm not trying to be combative bull loving poo poo. and shame on you
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Oct 25, 2017 04:25
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i really dont think that's true unless you class 'not being a jerk about it' as 'never mentioning it at all' Wait, what's the view you're arguing for?
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Oct 25, 2017 04:30
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i know it was just one sin among many. the last time i heard a (modern, non-medieval) priest speak on it, he classed as just one sin among many, equivalent to living with a partner before you're married... I would posit that you're still infected by modernism, with all its associated brittle overreliance on rules instead of lived experience.
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Oct 25, 2017 04:33
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HEY GAIL posted:You are correct. So...why are you not yelling about JcDent for having a long-term girlfriend? (sorry JcDent.) because you didn't bring him up in the context of looking for things to argue about with me. i didn't go out of my way to condemn the other guy (to whom i have literally never spoken and about whom i know nothing except what you've told me), you brought him up as if so say "and what's your view on that?" (i.e. as a cudgel in an argument) and i replied. do you want me to say, again, that that (living with your girlfriend and the other bits you mentioned) is a sin, and if he receives communion without atoning for it then it's illicit communion and thus another sin? i will, i guess? chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 04:35
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chernobyl kinsman posted:because you didn't bring him up in the context of looking for things to argue about with me. i didn't go out of my way to condemn the other guy (to whom i have literally never spoken), you brought him up as if so say "and what's your view on that?" and i replied. do you want me to say, again, that that's a sin, and if he receives communion without atoning for it's illicit communion and thus another sin? i will, i guess? i'm sure jesus is really proud of you
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Oct 25, 2017 04:38
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i'm sure jesus is really proud of you but this isn't passive-aggressive, lmao
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Oct 25, 2017 04:39
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chernobyl kinsman posted:i'm going to assume that those two posts are directed at me and pray for you Let me just come back to this post for a minute, and suggest you take a break and return to this discussion when everyone is less incensed. I'd like to tell you a story about "I'm praying for you." In undergrad I co-founded and lead a Gay-Straight Alliance group, it was the first that existed at that school in a deeply red, conservative state. We had maybe a dozen members and got some cool stuff done, like successfully lobbying the school administration to include sexual orientation and gender identity in their non-discrimination language. We met once a week on Wednesday afternoons, and every meeting there would be a group of students from a campus Christian organization I won't name holding a prayer circle outside. Then as we filed out after the meeting they would be holding hands and tell us "we're praying for you," "Jesus loves you," etc. This was in the main hall of the student union, right in front of the student mailboxes and around the corner from the only cafeteria on campus (it's a small school). It was patronizing, intimidating, humiliating, and not the least bit comforting. This was a Lutheran college, with about a third of the student body being Catholic, and virtually all of our GSA members were practicing Christians. I'm sure there were some good and pure intentions among those kids praying outside our GSA meetings, but the implication was crystal clear: we think what you're doing is wrong and we're going to make a big, dramatic, public show of it to shame you. In his junior year, the other co-founder of our GSA and a close friend of mine committed suicide. His parents had kicked him out a few years prior, he was an effeminate gay man in a deeply conservative region and caught no end of grief from assholes around campus. "I'm praying for you" was one small contributing factor that pushed him into depression and ending his own life. Welp that's my story, I guess I've been triggered. My point is that even if you genuinely don't think you're being combative, you are. Yes, other posters are getting testy in response but you're only adding fuel to the fire. We can have a civil discussion about sexuality and Christianity, but I'd encourage you to listen more and post passive-aggressive retorts less.
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Oct 25, 2017 04:48
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Let's talk about something not-terrible: I am having a little boy this spring and am looking for a good saint's name for him! Let's talk about our favorite saints! Preferably those with life stories that can be told to a little kid. Although I am Orthodox and am looking for a male saint, don't feel like you have to limit your discussion because of that.
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Oct 25, 2017 04:49
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