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Annual Prophet posted:is the issue here merely the presence of the market? imagine an economy comprising only individual proprietors who own their productive assets (looms, lathes, etc.), and are subject to a 100% estate tax; there is by definition no exploitation, because there is no expropriation of surplus value from any participant, but instead each consumes a level of use values determined by that participant, and correspondingly each may elect to produce more goods for exchange or fewer ones. would that still be a flawed model? just trying to flesh out the objection here. I think in that case what you're describing is Distributism, and exploitation isn't eliminated because you can still exploit peoples' ignorance through pricing on your goods to extract profit. The objection to viewing co-ops as a panacea is that because they're in a market they also have to compete with all other firms in order to extract profit and perpetuate their business. The Mondragon Corporation in Basque, for instance, is one of the most successful cooperatives in the world. Yet they guarantee profitability by using temporary contract labor which doesn't have a stake in the corporation. It's impossible to escape the necessity of exploitation under capitalism, and overcoming the problem will take a revolutionary change in economy. Co-operatives are a proof of concept that worker ownership and workplace democracy are viable alternatives to traditional top-down corporate models in capitalist firms, but if they still have to compete with capitalist firms then the issue of exploitation hasn't been resolved.
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Dec 1, 2017 15:12
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Troy Queef posted:can someone give me a wee primer on Season of the Bitch? I’ve seen people promote it on Twitter but then again I’ve also seen other people complain that it’s too dry (like Citations Needed in this regard, but that’s more a polemic than a podcast in my mind) Some leftist women politely take turns talking.
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Dec 1, 2017 15:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I think in that case what you're describing is Distributism, and exploitation isn't eliminated because you can still exploit peoples' ignorance through pricing on your goods to extract profit. ok, so setting aside the pricing point (there's some interesting discussion in capital vol 1 on this) the key issue looks to be the broader (capitalist) environment in which the proprietor (or co-op) would be operating under present legal and economic conditions, which certainly seems like a fair concern. appreciate the response, and if there are further questions i'll take them to one of the other threads.
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Dec 1, 2017 17:02
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gradenko_2000 posted:I know that worker co-ops already currently exist IRL, but do they operate at a "natural" disadvantage to regular capitalist enterprise? I keep thinking that of course a sweatshop is going to produce at a lower cost via externalities and worker exploitation. As someone who has worked in a co-op in the past. I can tell you you have to work about as hard as any equivalent job, to remain competitive with other businesses. I don't really think sweatshops are a good comparison, because most co-ops that I know of are above board service industry, whereas sweatshops... aren't.
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Dec 1, 2017 22:27
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the new struggle session is fun if you’re sick of the Disney Star Wars
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Dec 2, 2017 01:09
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Taintrunner posted:the new struggle session is fun if you’re sick of the Disney Star Wars Oh, boy, I love Struggle Session and am tired of all these damned Star Wars!
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Dec 2, 2017 01:13
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Taintrunner posted:the new struggle session is fun if you’re sick of the Disney Star Wars hell yeah, I want to throw stones at porgs
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Dec 2, 2017 01:21
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I have to find out what Hotep Obama is like.
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Dec 2, 2017 01:38
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Oh poo poo and they did an episode about Priests Black Panther run before this Gives me an excuse to move it up on my list I guess
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Dec 2, 2017 02:20
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i've been generally ambivalent towards the new star wars movies, and that struggle session episode owned. disney is never gonna be able to match the lucas movies, but their films are fascinating in just how badly they miss the point of the movies that came before. at least they're entertaining to watch
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Dec 2, 2017 04:52
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Serf's Illenials podcast did a Star Wars episode too
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Dec 2, 2017 05:03
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They ignored how the Star Wars Extended Universe was filled with a ton of stupid poo poo, and Disney had a reasonable cause to try and exercise quality control. But then they made Force Awakens exactly like a badly written EU story anyway, so they cut out the biggest draw that maintained their franchise's fanbase for nothing. It's good to hear somebody else say that KOTOR 2 is the best Star Wars though.
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Dec 2, 2017 08:08
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:They ignored how the Star Wars Extended Universe was filled with a ton of stupid poo poo, and Disney had a reasonable cause to try and exercise quality control. But then they made Force Awakens exactly like a badly written EU story anyway, so they cut out the biggest draw that maintained their franchise's fanbase for nothing. Bring in the Yuuzhan Vong imo
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Dec 2, 2017 08:18
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Also I'm listening to cum town and I want to hear their Christmas album Dreidel dreidel dreidel I hosed my dad I'm gay
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Dec 2, 2017 08:18
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Lmao if you care about the expanded universe of anything. It's all fiction, and the fiction still exists so what does Disney's canon matter?
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Dec 2, 2017 08:30
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Narrative causality in the age of multimedia behemoths is a farce
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Dec 2, 2017 08:31
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Dreddout posted:Lmao if you care about the expanded universe of anything. Ughhhhhhh
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Dec 2, 2017 08:39
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Dreddout posted:Narrative causality in the age of multimedia behemoths is a farce Shut uuuuuuup
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Dec 2, 2017 08:39
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Dreddout posted:Lmao if you care about the expanded universe of anything. The loose exercise of control that Lucasarts put on the Expanded Universe meant there was a lot of interesting stuff that could be done by authors, even if most of it is trash. Setting canon aside, Disney is shutting the door completely to anyone other than strictly vetted and approved authors from participating in the Star Wars universe.
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Dec 2, 2017 09:54
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The worst part is Jason Aaron not getting to write his comic about Stormtroopers coming for Yoda and basically it's predator but Yoda is the predator Also Skippy the Jedi Droid and that one Ennis comic about the stormtrooper Leia kills at the beginning of New Hope aren't canon anymore and that sucks
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Dec 2, 2017 10:40
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Also Skippy the Jedi Droid and that one Ennis comic about the stormtrooper Leia kills at the beginning of New Hope aren't canon anymore and that sucks if the stories exist in the world and have value to you, why do you need the validation of a canon
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Dec 2, 2017 10:44
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is the story of the dude that carried the ice cream maker out of Cloud City still canon?
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Dec 2, 2017 10:44
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wizard on a water slide posted:if the stories exist in the world and have value to you, why do you need the validation of a canon Canon is important because it's something that a greater mythology can be built upon. If you declare something to be non-canon, then it can never be alluded to ever again, regardless of how much people like it. The issue isn't that Disney can somehow wipe out all those existing stories or the enjoyment of them, the issue is that they're smothering what used to be a living franchise. It's what the Struggle Session guys mean when they say that the Star Wars universe used to feel huge, but now feels tiny. A literal entire galaxy of possibilities have been cut out because the people who own the franchise - not its creators - think they're exercising quality control. Yet they're not even delivering quality storytelling. They're exploiting what they think people loved about Star Wars, and it's not going to last forever.
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Dec 2, 2017 11:15
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wizard on a water slide posted:if the stories exist in the world and have value to you, why do you need the validation of a canon bitch i do comic books my relationship with canon is immensely complex in that i recognize canon as being important and i like for things i like to be Officially Real and Recognized and able to be referenced but also i know it's all bullshit also Pener Kropoopkin posted:Canon is important because it's something that a greater mythology can be built upon. If you declare something to be non-canon, then it can never be alluded to ever again, regardless of how much people like it. The issue isn't that Disney can somehow wipe out all those existing stories or the enjoyment of them, the issue is that they're smothering what used to be a living franchise. It's what the Struggle Session guys mean when they say that the Star Wars universe used to feel huge, but now feels tiny. A literal entire galaxy of possibilities have been cut out because the people who own the franchise - not its creators - think they're exercising quality control. Yet they're not even delivering quality storytelling. They're exploiting what they think people loved about Star Wars, and it's not going to last forever.
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Dec 2, 2017 12:14
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again my primary Thing is a medium that has for decades been defined by a willingness to alter its own history to suit a story the difference is that comics very rarely just go "actually this whole time span didn't happen eat poo poo fuckos" instead of explaining why ACTUALLY this is what REALLY happened also there's a literal universal mechanism in DC that explains how different stories are canon at different times, it rules hard
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Dec 2, 2017 12:18
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canon is both a crutch and a straitjacket for stories, gently caress canon, gently caress multiepisodic continuity, just tell the fuckin stories you want to tell and just read/watch the fuckin stories you want to read/watch
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Dec 2, 2017 13:38
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the expanded universe was largely garbage kotor 2 was the best star wars
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Dec 2, 2017 16:09
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the X-Wing series was good
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Dec 2, 2017 16:14
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gradenko_2000 posted:the X-Wing series was good i started re-reading it last week when i was stuck at home with the flu and no. no it's not. Stackpole is not a good writer. Allston is better but...
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Dec 2, 2017 17:10
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Serf posted:the expanded universe was largely garbage personally i wish for the reboot they’d ditched the existing storyline (and actors) and done something new set in a much earlier (or later) era a la kotor; there would still be the compelling setting, but the narrative possibilities would have been a lot more open ended
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Dec 2, 2017 19:07
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Annual Prophet posted:personally i wish for the reboot they’d ditched the existing storyline (and actors) and done something new set in a much earlier (or later) era a la kotor; there would still be the compelling setting, but the narrative possibilities would have been a lot more open ended I want a Knights of the Really Really Old Republic. We're talking the early days of the jedi order, maybe even before the Sith split; this would allow for grey jedi and maybe even moderate darkside protagonists. Add in a fledgling interstellar alliance founding the republic, weird alien enemies on all sides and poo poo.
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Dec 2, 2017 19:32
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TetsuoTW posted:canon is both a crutch and a straitjacket for stories, gently caress canon, gently caress multiepisodic continuity, just tell the fuckin stories you want to tell and just read/watch the fuckin stories you want to read/watch this is why the mad max universe is the best cinematic universe
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Dec 2, 2017 19:43
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TomViolence posted:this is why the mad max universe is the best cinematic universe Doesn't hurt that it's a uniquely singular vision either, with Miller writing and directing all of them
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Dec 2, 2017 20:14
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:again my primary Thing is a medium that has for decades been defined by a willingness to alter its own history to suit a story I'm sorry you decided to waste your time investing in something that is really just justification for perpetual franchises.  TetsuoTW posted:canon is both a crutch and a straitjacket for stories, gently caress canon, gently caress multiepisodic continuity, just tell the fuckin stories you want to tell and just read/watch the fuckin stories you want to read/watch It's this, you can like franchises, but they're pretty much the most commodified form of story telling.
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Dec 2, 2017 21:04
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The average hentai doujin has more narrative integrity than the DC universe, sorry not sorry
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Dec 2, 2017 21:06
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Dreddout posted:The average hentai doujin has more narrative integrity than the DC universe, sorry not sorry 
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Dec 2, 2017 21:09
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Dreddout posted:I'm sorry you decided to waste your time investing in something that is really just justification for perpetual franchises. Or it's a natural bypeoduct of decades of stories with an eye towards people reading them over a long period of time instead of cycling in and out every couple years but I mean Whatever
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Dec 2, 2017 21:22
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Also I literally said that I completely understand that canon is bullshit
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Dec 2, 2017 21:22
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Or it's a natural bypeoduct of decades of stories with an eye towards people reading them over a long period of time instead of cycling in and out every couple years but I mean Whatever Nah
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Dec 2, 2017 21:47
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Dreddout posted:Nah Pssst it's literally the thing I said wrt comics actually
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Dec 2, 2017 22:39
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