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I'm a BF GTX guy, but I also have a sweet Grandma 323 (Wagon). I definitely approve of this thread, and might even do a KL swap on it in the future. Its so old the smog guys even in California are on autopilot and pass most anything.
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Jan 19, 2018 06:41
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So, we left off with the intake manifold getting a good cleaning and clearcoat. I turned my attention to the valve covers. They, like everything else were horribly corroded. I've always wanted to have wrinkly red valve covers, so I picked up a can of VHT wrinkle engine paint.  While those dried, I pressure washed all the schmoo off the trans. It also got a coat of high temp clear.  Around this time, summer was coming to an end, and I was running out of light. I bought an outdoor fluorescent fixture and installed it. Made a huge difference.  I had been doing some reading and learned that the KL engines have a few weaknesses in their heads. First, they are known for HLA noise from dirty, sticky adjusters. Second, they have a friction washer, which adds preload on the split gear on the non-belt driven camshaft to take up backlash. I guess over time, this washer wears and starts to spin, making a horrible noise. Mazda corrected this in later engines by adding two tabs which fit into slots in the retaining nut.   The third issue is specific to KLZE engines only. The KL31 head has larger intake valves than the other K series engines. Unfortunately, they had a manufacturing flaw, which creates a weakness and the valve retainers will crack. No one wants to drop a valve. The solution is to swap the smaller diameter springs and retainers from another K series. The smaller springs are also stronger. Most people say to use a KLDE engine, but the parts fiche shows the same parts were also used in the K8. Given that I had a junk K8, it was time to scavenge.   This is one of the more interesting tools I've found recently. Lisle makes this valve keeper remover and installer tool. Basically you place it over the valve, put compressed air into the cylinder and tap the tool with a hammer. The keepers will suck themselves into the tool via a magnet. To reinstall, there is another attachment, which puts the keepers back. Very handy.  Here are all the K8 valve springs and retainers:  KLZE KL31 head:  Cams out:  New valve stem seals:  And a giant mess:  New springs in:  HLA disassembled. To do this, I put compressed air in the small oil charge hole. This caused the HLA to explode apart along with all the gross schmoo. Clean them in parts cleaner, put a light drop of motor oil on them and reassemble. 
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Jan 27, 2018 06:22
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Huh, that's a better method for dismantling HLAs than I've seen from the Miata community.
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Jan 27, 2018 19:36
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Is a solid lifter swap worthwhile (or available)?
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Jan 27, 2018 23:39
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Yes, you can use solid lifters, but there is nothing really wrong with the HLA, provided they are clean.
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Jan 28, 2018 00:55
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So, with the cams back in, it was time to address the water pump. It was looking a little grim.  Some erosion of the jacket from cavitation. Not too bad. Not really much that can be done about this.  Fancy new waterpump. There are two types for this engine, one is $10, the other is $50. This one needed the $50 pump of course.  Waterpump and cam gears installed.  New timing belt on. Interestingly, I noticed when I was disassembling the engine that the belt was one tooth off. I wonder how well that ran...  Now, onto the valve covers.  I think the valve covers turned out quite well. Some more plastic and accessories.    All ready to be mated to the transmission.
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Mar 4, 2018 00:43
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poo poo yeah! Those valve covers look awesome
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Mar 4, 2018 00:47
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That's some engine porn right there. So jealous, I want another 323 now dammit 
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Mar 4, 2018 05:57
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Hey, you finally got a water pump on an engine! The rest is just reassembly, right? 
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Mar 4, 2018 20:23
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I forgot you were doing this swap. I'm also stuffing a G series gearbox into a 323, but its a B6T from a Capri XR2 into my 87 323 wagon.
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Mar 4, 2018 20:58
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Raluek posted:Hey, you finally got a water pump on an engine! The rest is just reassembly, right? True, the hard part of getting the water pump replaced is now done. 😀
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Mar 5, 2018 01:06
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Now that the engine was sorted, it was time to move onto the transmission. First, a good pressure washing to get the grease off. Next some wire brush work and a bit of soda blasting left me with this.  Not too bad. A little more cleanup and some high temp clear will be in order. There is a problem using the K8 transmission. The MX-3 used a electronic speed sensor, on the transmission. The automatic from the 323 was a standard cable driven unit, with an electronic sensor in the gauge cluster itself. Now, a lot of people just squish the MX-3 cluster into the 323 dash, or go an aftermarket route. I wanted to retain the stock 323 gauges, so this meant I would need to come up with an adapter. Comparing the two sensors, it was clear that while the tooth counts were nearly identical (one tooth different) the mounting and alignment was not anywhere close. I had seen posts of guys who just bolted the other sensor into the hole, but then ended up eventually chewing up the gears. The cable driven style has the mounting outer diameter concentric around the driven shaft. The MX-3 electronic one is off axis. It is also significantly shorter.  MX-3 electronic on the left, 323 cable on the right. I needed to combine the upper cable interface from the 323 with the lower mounting tabs from the MX3. I would also have to convert the inner shaft to accept the cable style. I decided to chuck the MX-3 body up into the lathe and part off the top portion.  I then cut off the upper portion of the 323 sensor, where the cable attaches. I turned down the outside and matched it to the offset bore of the MX3 lower.  I then pressed them together carefully. Cast aluminum shatters easy! I actually ended up ruining one of my MX-3 sensors as I did not notice a step in the inner bore of the body.  Left side is the top of the MX-3 and the bottom of the 323 sensors that I cut off. Right side is the two other halfs pressed together.  There is the body all finished. Now I had to turn my attention onto the shafts. Comparing the two, I noticed I could cut the 323 cable shaft down to the same dimensions of the MX3 shaft, provided I remove a small stepped bit of the drive gear, which didn't even have teeth.  323 cable style on left, MX-3 electronic on right. I cut off the extra and ground a tool to cut the tiny C-Clip groove. It was my first time grinding a HSS blank and it worked really well.  I now needed to replicate the flat spot to accept the MX-3 gear. I don't have a mill, but a friend does.  The finished shaft and turned down gear:  All the components:  Now it was just a matter of reassembly:  There we go. A cable driven speed sensor for a K8 manual transmission.
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Mar 15, 2018 20:53
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Sgt Fox posted:There we go. A cable driven speed sensor for a K8 manual transmission.  That's pretty awesome work. Most folks definitely don't have that attention to detail (or the means/skills) to pull that off.
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Mar 15, 2018 21:44
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Couldn't you have just bought the electronic speed sensor off an NB miata? Not to poo poo on nice machining(I'm a CMM programmer), mazda didn't exactly custom-engineer a lot of stuff and parts off one car seem to bolt onto a completely different model in the same year range .
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Mar 15, 2018 21:51
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The miata speed sensor would not have helped. The speedometer I am using, the 323 one is a mechanical cable driven unit. I think some of the early miatas may have used a cable unit, but from pictures, those look to have the drive gear in the wrong place, much the same as the cable driven 323 unit. Sgt Fox fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 03:58
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Probably all NAs are cable speedo: my '97 Miata was definitely a cable-driven speedometer, but the speedometer also fed the ECU vehicle speed for some reason I will never understand. I know this because it threw a code when the cable seized since the previous owner greased the outside of the cable when it started making noise on the highway.
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Mar 16, 2018 04:02
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Seat Safety Switch posted:Probably all NAs are cable speedo: my '97 Miata was definitely a cable-driven speedometer, but the speedometer also fed the ECU vehicle speed for some reason I will never understand. Yep, NA have a cable (and sometimes a reed switch behind the speedo to make an electric signal), NB have an electric one. It's probably just used for cruise control and maybe automatic transmission. Engine should give no fucks, but you could still have the ECU be upset about it and throw the code. We once had to remove and disassemble the gearbox on our 323 racer because the speedo thing came loose, the wheel broke off and fell down, and blocked the stick from moving anywhere except between 4th and neutral. Fun times.
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Mar 16, 2018 09:48
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Seat Safety Switch posted:Probably all NAs are cable speedo: my '97 Miata was definitely a cable-driven speedometer, but the speedometer also fed the ECU vehicle speed for some reason I will never understand. The NA miata is indeed cable driven. The speed sensor lives in the gauge cluster and is intended for the factory cruise control and automatic transmission, if so equipped. Fun fact, when the speedometer cable gets sticky and the needle starts to wobble, the cruise control does a fun delayed on/off power thing on the highway. Ask me how I know. Sorry I misunderstood your post OP, I was under the impression you were going from cable to sensor, not verse visa.
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Mar 16, 2018 13:29
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What part number/vendor are you using for the axle seals on the transmission? For some reason I'm having issues finding decent ones for the G series box. Weirdest thing is one of mine is perfect, one is completely torn and trashed. I guess those intermediate shafts really treat their seals well...
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Mar 17, 2018 05:59
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DJ Commie posted:What part number/vendor are you using for the axle seals on the transmission? For some reason I'm having issues finding decent ones for the G series box. Weirdest thing is one of mine is perfect, one is completely torn and trashed. I guess those intermediate shafts really treat their seals well... On the transmission itself, I used BECK/ARNLEY 0523520 for the output shaft seals. The intermediate shaft is a bit of an odd one. No rebuild parts are listed. I used TIMKEN 710223 and TIMKEN 710224 for the seals and SKF 62062RSJ for the bearing. It took me a bit of cross referencing, as the forum posts online list the wrong parts.
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Mar 21, 2018 04:31
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Since I was converting the car from automatic to manual, it was time to tackle the clutch hydraulics. Removed the automatic pedal box to swap with the clutch pedal version.  Shown is a 323 auto pedal box, a 323 manual and an MX-3 manual. I am finding Mazda likes to make things almost the same, except for one little difference. The steering column mount on the MX-3 is about 1/4" off from that used on the 323. Luckily I also had a manual 323 pedalbox laying around, so I used that one. For some reason, my 323 had no swaybars whatsoever. According to the parts diagrams, all should of had at least a front bar. Given that I had the entire front subframe of the the MX3, it was just easier to swap the whole thing. This got me a quicker ratio rack, wider track width and swaybars with endlinks.  Using the MX-3 spindles meant that I also needed to use the MX-3 brakes. Just like the pedal box, the calipers look near identical, but are slightly different, to accommodate the 1" larger brake discs. Since I also had the MX-3 rear subframe, I decided to bolt it in as well. This gave me rear swaybars, some weird Mazda four wheel steering setup like what was used in the RX-7 and disc rear brakes! I knew the stock 323 suspension was pretty worn out, but I was not expecting what I found on the rear:  The rear spring was completely broken. I can only imagine the dukes of hazzard style jumps my grandmother must have taken with this car! The struts and springs off the MX-3 were in pretty good shape, they looked to be replaced recently. Fronts were Monroe and the rears were KYB GR2.  Now it sits, waiting for its new heart.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:36
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I have those same towels.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:55
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Fuckin score on the Mazda legos there. So many nice upgrades.
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Mar 27, 2018 22:12
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Sgt Fox posted:For some reason, my 323 had no swaybars whatsoever. According to the parts diagrams, all should of had at least a front bar. The 323 BG most definitely came with swaybars both front and rear. Sgt Fox posted:Using the MX-3 spindles meant that I also needed to use the MX-3 brakes. Just like the pedal box, the calipers look near identical, but are slightly different, to accommodate the 1" larger brake discs. I had to replace a front caliper on a 1.8 323 and by mistake got one for a 1.6. It looked similar enough and fit nicely so I didn't think much of it, until I was driving and had an awful grinding noise from that corner. Since the caliper was just slightly smaller, the rotor was touching the wheel, but just a tiny bit. So I just took a grinder to the discussion to reduce the diameter a couple millimeters until I got the right caliper. Edit: ^The rotor wasn't touching the goddamn wheel, but obviously the inside of the caliper. I don't know how to think and write. Also the 323 1.8 has discs in the rear while 1.6 has drums, so it sounds likely the MX3 uses the exact same lego parts as the 1.8 323. (This is the 130 hp 1.8 DOHC 323 BG, no idea about which side of the fence the 100hp 1.8 SOHC is) ionn fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Mar 29, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 16:02
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ionn posted:The 323 BG most definitely came with swaybars both front and rear. You live in Europe right? Must be a North American thing because mine didn't have a rear bar. Not having a front bar is strange tho.
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Mar 28, 2018 17:26
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Applebees Appetizer posted:You live in Europe right? Must be a North American thing because mine didn't have a rear bar. Not having a front bar is strange tho. Much Europe. But weren't they all made in Japan? Why would some regions/versions have rear away bars and some not? 
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Mar 28, 2018 23:39
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ionn posted:Since the caliper was just slightly smaller, the rotor was touching the wheel, but just a tiny bit. So I just took a grinder to the discussion to reduce the diameter a couple millimeters until I got the right caliper. Yeah, even the casting numbers were the same, which was very confusing. Comparing the two, the MX-3 has 1/8" more clearance. The rest of the size difference is made up for in the spindle. It's really weird that there was no front bar. I looked at where it should have mounted, and there was no sign of any fasteners ever being present. Perhaps because the car was an early 1990 model? The early ones also had the ATX ECU separate from the engine ECU, which made modifying the wiring harness a pain.
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Mar 29, 2018 00:33
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ionn posted:Much Europe. But weren't they all made in Japan? Why would some regions/versions have rear away bars and some not? Costs as always. I remember reading about how Europe always got better handling economy cars because that's what Europeans like or some poo poo. Stiffer shocks/springs etc. North America got bottom of the barrel economy because apparently no one here cares about that 
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Mar 29, 2018 01:19
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Sgt Fox posted:Yeah, even the casting numbers were the same, which was very confusing. Comparing the two, the MX-3 has 1/8" more clearance. The rest of the size difference is made up for in the spindle. That sounds about the same. The rotor (which was old and a bit rusty along the outer edge already) was just making a pair of grooves in the caliper, and it didn't take very much grinding to get rid of the problem for the moment. I can see how it would still work pretty fine without the rear sway bar, but not having one up front amazes me. I drove one of ours a short bit with the front sway bar disconnected, and goddamn was there swaying going on. Baffles me that anyone would take it out. Our current 323 racer (which is doing it's final appearance in a 24h race in October, but we may not do anything with it before then) just has about 1.5-2 turns of spring cut off on all four corners, and the front sway bar seriously stiffened up (by welding angle iron along it for a bit). Handles like a gokart, problems are the rear wheels rub under compression, and it gets a bit twitchy or oversteers under braking. Last stint I drove in the last race (an 8h one) I completely ran out of rear pads, and I found the much reduced braking force just made it better. We probably just took a bit too much spring out, so another pair of less-molested springs could fix both issues. That stint was basically the most fun I've ever had on track though. Too bad we had a crash early in the race, our pace during the rest of it was as good as the winners.
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Mar 29, 2018 08:54
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ionn posted:Our current 323 racer (which is doing it's final appearance in a 24h race in October, but we may not do anything with it before then) just has about 1.5-2 turns of spring cut off on all four corners, and the front sway bar seriously stiffened up (by welding angle iron along it for a bit). Handles like a gokart, problems are the rear wheels rub under compression, and it gets a bit twitchy or oversteers under braking. Last stint I drove in the last race (an 8h one) I completely ran out of rear pads, and I found the much reduced braking force just made it better. We probably just took a bit too much spring out, so another pair of less-molested springs could fix both issues. My 24 hours of LeMons (class winning!) Daihatsu Charade ran a set of $50 eBay coilovers with the springs reversed so you had the stiff one in the rear. Heh. It worked amazingly, that thing had perfect off-throttle oversteer and ran the standard 'big' 18mm bar, I had a 13mm spare also for bad weather we never seemed to get. I have a 21mm Suspension Techniques hollow bar for the front of my BF Wagon and its honestly not that great, the BF GTX bar is the best over the Capri XR2 and base wagon bar. Its hard to get a rear bar for those and the wagon's one is already the biggest of the OEM bars. Addco makes a 19mm rear bar but its expensive for only 20% stiffer on a floppy 30 year old wagon. Sgt Fox posted:On the transmission itself, I used BECK/ARNLEY 0523520 for the output shaft seals. Whoa, that's a bunch of great info! I'm hoping to get the swap going once I decide to either modify the early EFI harnesses the car has to work with the later ECU, or just make secondary harnesses with the CEL, idle control motor, boost light, etc pinned in. DJ Commie fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Mar 31, 2018 |
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Mar 31, 2018 07:13
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Swapping the MX-3 subframes meant that I also had MX-3 brakes. The front discs are now larger by almost an inch, and I have disc brakes in the rear, instead of drums. Loaded calipers were too expensive, or I was just too cheap, so I decided to rebuild the calipers myself. The front calipers are easy, but the rears are slightly more fiddly, due to the integration of a parking brake.  Here you can see all the bits. The first time I put them back together, the parking brake mechanism wasn't working too well. It would apply pressure, but would max out the lever travel quickly. It turned out there was dirt in one of the c-clip grooves, allowing the parking brake rod to only apply a bit of pressure, then release. It took me a bit to figure this out, as moving it by hand would move the piston against my hand, but I couldn't press hard enough back on the piston to cause the clip to pop out of place. Even the little piston had a few components inside:  I painted them gray and slapped them back together:  I also rebuild the intermediate shaft, using the part numbers I posted previously. The carrier bearing was completely seized.  Here are the brakes back on the car:  I just clear my wheels: 
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Apr 19, 2018 21:32
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Awwwww  That reminds me of my old mazda (protege). I rebuilt the rear calipers and it was a motherfucker because I needed really long, thin snap ring pliers. I got some snap ring pliers with interchangeable tips and had to weld two sets together (seriously) to get them long enough to fit inside the piston bore. The welds lasted just long enough to take everything apart, and put it back together. They literally broke the moment I put the last snap ring in to place. Then the bleeder screw twisted off  . I managed to weld that back together, and the heat miraculously was enough to loosen the bit that was stuck in the caliper. I always meant to change that bleeder, but never got around to it. I think I still have the replacement screws around somewhere.
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Apr 20, 2018 11:55
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I have had more than one Mazda 323 junk racecar that never got the rear calipers bled because the bleed screws snapped. For some reason the fronts never rusted as badly, and I only recall one of those ever breaking off. And then for once, using a bolt extractor actually worked (locally known as "grispitt", which loosely translates to "pig penis").
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Apr 20, 2018 22:11
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The rears have a smaller diameter bleeder than the fronts. Maybe that is why. I also snapped off a rear bleeder, it took about an hour of careful drilling to remove it without damaging the seat.
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Apr 20, 2018 22:40
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So is the parking brake on those a rear caliper - ie no drum? Are those the type you have to wind the pistons back when doing a pad change? I'm just wondering because I've often heard of pistons you can't just compress back when doing a pad/rotor change, but all mine have had internal drum shoes for the parking brake so I have never needed to worry. I've only heard of fiat and vw having those types of parking brakes.
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Apr 21, 2018 09:08
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Hah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has broken one of those blasted things. It's a 7mm wrench IIRC which is super easy to put a bit too much force on, I guess.
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Apr 21, 2018 11:37
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Fo3 posted:So is the parking brake on those a rear caliper - ie no drum? Are those the type you have to wind the pistons back when doing a pad change? I'm just wondering because I've often heard of pistons you can't just compress back when doing a pad/rotor change, but all mine have had internal drum shoes for the parking brake so I have never needed to worry. I've only heard of fiat and vw having those types of parking brakes. On my Protege, and probably the 323/mx3 whatever. Probably other stuff too, there was a little bolt on the back of the caliper, you take out the bolt, insert an allen wrench and turn a little gear wheel type dealie to retract the caliper. E: Number 4 in the diagram: https://www.justanswer.com/mazda/4e9tx-mazda-323-2003-mazda-323-cant-compress-rear-brake-piston.html
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Apr 21, 2018 17:01
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The MX-3, and FB Rx-7 also, don't have the adjustment screw. You need to turn the piston instead on those.
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Apr 21, 2018 18:59
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My BF GTX, 91 Capri, and NA Miata were the same. The calipers are pretty much interchangeable too.
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Apr 21, 2018 19:16
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gently caress, really? Wish I'd known. I always had problems with the adjustment wheels. Even after putting new (rebuilt) calipers on the back.
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Apr 22, 2018 21:55
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