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is that lord cybertrex in the wizard robe?
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Apr 24, 2024 08:14
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You buffoon. You clown. That's not a "wizard robe" it's a cybernetic integument that permits digital interfacement with the Dataverse Infosphere Anyway I was checking out the Dune 2 soundtrack on youtube, and they seemed to have put it up before the movie was released (and in a weird random order too). So there were comments from people trying to guess which scene each bit of music belonged to, which made for strangely entertaining reading. Several people guessed that the creepy music from Feyd's harem might be an Alia scene...
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Apr 24, 2024 08:57
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Eau de MacGowan posted:is that lord cybertrex in the wizard robe? No that's Erasmus fuckin, duh-doy. LORD CYBERTREX is the excavator transformer
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Apr 24, 2024 10:35
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Who's the crying guy in the middle? Sorry, let me turn my monitor back on.
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Apr 24, 2024 13:07
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This may be a controversial opinion but I think Brian Hrebert is a better writer than his father Frank personally. He's incredibly imaginative and his prose reminds me of bradbury
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Apr 24, 2024 15:02
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uber_stoat posted:HEHEHEH Hmm-hmm-hmm, is this the, ahhhhhhh, the genius boy-author we - hmmm - we've heard so much, ah, about?
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Apr 24, 2024 15:09
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Spazzle posted:I haven't read past the first book in a very long time. Why did Paul have a giant murderous jihad after becoming emperor? the in-book reason is because he couldn't control the jihad, like Fremen warlords would just go to X planet which rebels against the Atreides Empire and enact exterminatus in his name without bothering to get approval from Arrakean. All Paul could do is tamper down the worst excesses. In the second book some of those said warlords turn against and tries to assassinate him I guess it kinda make sense because the imperium in dune is a universe-wide empire and 61 billion dead or so might like 0.00001% of the population or something, and that's just considered normal amount of collateral damage in a war but it also doesn't make sense because realistically Paul's status as god-emperor would mean he would have pretty firm control over the legions
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Apr 24, 2024 15:33
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The Fremen military elites aren’t the ones trying to gack Paul in Messiah. It’s the traditional power holders that were marginalized by the jihad/qizarate (Guild, BGs, Tleilaxu, Corrino) with the connivance of embittered Fremen veterans who have suffered for the jihad, but now have no power and status and have concluded that it ruined them and their whole culture Not gonna spoiler this because the books are like 50 years old
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Apr 24, 2024 15:41
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they're space kharijites, so what happened w/ the real kharijites is the arguing over the succession, but gotta keep paul atreides in cuz it's a scifi sequel
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Apr 24, 2024 15:42
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Who was the cover artist? Poser?
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Apr 24, 2024 15:43
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Typo posted:the in-book reason is because he couldn't control the jihad, like Fremen warlords would just go to X planet which rebels against the Atreides Empire and enact exterminatus in his name without bothering to get approval from Arrakean. All Paul could do is tamper down the worst excesses. In the second book some of those said warlords turn against and tries to assassinate him To paraphrase another sci-fi writer, "The avalanche has started. It is too late for the boulder to command."
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Apr 24, 2024 15:49
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skasion posted:The Fremen military elites aren’t the ones trying to gack Paul in Messiah. It’s the traditional power holders that were marginalized by the jihad/qizarate (Guild, BGs, Tleilaxu, Corrino) with the connivance of embittered Fremen veterans who have suffered for the jihad, but now have no power and status and have concluded that it ruined them and their whole culture the way I read it was elements of the Fremen military elite was definitely on board with the plot (i.e Farok and Alia specifically mentions the Naibs who were among the traitors at Kobra's trial) Paul was dealing with the same situation a lot of revolutionary leaders dealt with after they won: they faced threats from both within the ancien regime's institutions (so in this case BG/Tlx/guild etc) as well as elements from within his own revolutionary coalition who were unhappy with how the post-war was playing out (so dudes like Farok and Kobra). That's also why historically successful revolutionary governments tend to purge a lot of the revolutionaries in the aftermath. Typo fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 15:49
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Admiralty Flag posted:Without a strong administrative layer in his forces -- and I never get the idea that, e.g., the Feydakin have much of a hierarchy beyond Stilgar having a lot of clout and gravitas -- it's really closer to a horde than a modern army (or even a Roman legion) as we know it. Combine that with the difficulties of FTL communications in the Duniverse, the immense size of Paul's forces, and the fact it was raised as a religious crusade, and you'll have warlords running off on their own executing the will of the Lisan Al-Gaďb...of course, they have no idea what that will really is, and Paul has no idea of what they're doing and no way to stop them until way after the damage is done. yeah that's a good point: the Fremen legions probably didn't have a very strong chain of command back to the capital and operated based on personal authority of Naibs turned legion commanders a lot of the time come to think of it in book 2-3 the Atreides dynasty was probably always 1-2 key defections by figures like Stilgar away from being overthrown
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Apr 24, 2024 15:53
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Typo posted:yeah that's a good point: the Fremen legions probably didn't have a very strong chain of command back to the capital and operated based on personal authority of Naibs turned legion commanders a lot of the time I mean hell in Book 1 it took exactly one dude to do it and it probably would have killed all of them if the dude hadn't been more pissed at the people he was betraying them to.
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Apr 24, 2024 15:58
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The Qizara (priests) are the administrative layer. By the time of Messiah most of the war is already over and it’s been regularized into occupation/taxation Typo posted:the way I read it was elements of the Fremen military elite was definitely on board with the plot (i.e Farok and Alia specifically mentions the Naibs who were among the traitors at Kobra's trial) Farok is one of the embittered veterans I mean. Like Otheym, he was briefly big poo poo but now is just poo poo. We don’t see any of the Fremen commanders leading his army back to Arrakis to start a civil war Fitna-style. Korba and his naibs is a good point though. I forget, did they take an active role in the Mohiam/Irulan conspiracy? Or were those initially unrelated intrigues?
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Apr 24, 2024 16:01
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skasion posted:The Qizara (priests) are the administrative layer. By the time of Messiah most of the war is already over and it’s been regularized into occupation/taxation it was related: they were why the Corrino were able to capture a sandworm and bring it to Salusa
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Apr 24, 2024 16:05
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ImpAtom posted:I mean hell in Book 1 it took exactly one dude to do it and it probably would have killed all of them if the dude hadn't been more pissed at the people he was betraying them to. actually come to think of it, why did Yueh have access to the house shield generators? like he's a doctor wtf did he do just go up to the guards in front of the shield room and go "I have to go in to ummmmmm cure diseases?"
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Apr 24, 2024 16:24
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Typo posted:actually come to think of it, why did Yueh have access to the house shield generators? “Thank goodness I found you guys. I’ve perfected the new treatment for Arrakeenian dick rot. Better take it right now”
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Apr 24, 2024 16:31
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skasion posted:the new treatment new? they don't do new
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Apr 24, 2024 16:32
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come on, you wouldn't trust a suk doctor?
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Apr 24, 2024 16:59
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kalel posted:come on, you wouldn't trust a suk doctor? That's the thing. Suk doctors were so widely trusted that, even if they thought it was weird, they probably also thoguht "well, he's a suk doctor, he can't possibly be up to no good."
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Apr 24, 2024 18:14
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Shaddak posted:That's the thing. Suk doctors were so widely trusted that, even if they thought it was weird, they probably also thoguht "well, he's a suk doctor, he can't possibly be up to no good." 
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Apr 24, 2024 18:28
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so the way the baron broke yueh's unbreakable suk doctor conditioning is to.....kidnap his spouse and torture her? like how is the conditioning even remotely perceived as unbreakable then? Those guys have being around for like 10k years wouldn't the first thing someone would have tried back in the days is to kidnap a family member or something to force the suk doctor to assassinate their patient?
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Apr 24, 2024 20:01
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you can tell that herbert doesn't understand violence that well despite writing about it at length, yeah
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Apr 24, 2024 20:07
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Typo posted:so the way the baron broke yueh's unbreakable suk doctor conditioning is to.....kidnap his spouse and torture her? Wanna was Bene Gesserit and Jessica was able to spot that in the book, if Wanna had done the Sisterhood conditioning on him it might have interfered with the Suk conditioning... like running multiple antivirus programs on a computer it might break things and given the Baron more leverage.
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Apr 24, 2024 20:12
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Typo posted:so the way the baron broke yueh's unbreakable suk doctor conditioning is to.....kidnap his spouse and torture her? I've wondered if people just don't bother because they know they can't do it so why try Maybe the conditioning started failing over time slowly and nobody noticed
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Apr 24, 2024 20:14
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Chapterhouse was just Frank closing up that little plot hole
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Apr 24, 2024 20:15
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I like the idea that suk conditioning is actually 100% bullshit and no one will admit it publicly, but I also kinda got the impression that Yueh genuinely believed (or at least, talked himself onto believing) he was doing harm reduction- the Harkonnens are inevitably going to win so why not smuggle the heir out and maybe kill the Baron too?
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Apr 24, 2024 20:18
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It's probably the weakest part of the setup, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the Suks rarely appear and have little impact on the story after the first book.
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Apr 24, 2024 20:19
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Halloween Jack posted:It's probably the weakest part of the setup, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the Suks rarely appear and have little impact on the story after the first book. Suk doctors after Yueh's story gets out 
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Apr 24, 2024 20:29
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Typo posted:so the way the baron broke yueh's unbreakable suk doctor conditioning is to.....kidnap his spouse and torture her? Yueh's situation was rare if not unique in that he was married to a B-G and she had her hooks deep enough into him that Jessica was able to recognize the signs just by looking at him. The 'torture the family members' thing wouldn't have worked if Yueh wasn't already deeply conditioned by his wife. They basically took advantage of the BG manipulations to give them a crack in the previously considered unbreakable Suk conditioning.
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Apr 24, 2024 20:33
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The way the word “suk” is used in the later books kind of makes it seem like it’s just Dunespeak for “doctor”, with little to no stress on the conditioning stuff. Which is a bit weird since elsewhere it’s used to mean what you would expect, a street market. Anyway the “we literally can do no harm” thing was probably quietly dropped from the marketing brochure after the universe filled with Muad’dib cultists raving about how many deaths weren’t enough for Yueh.
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Apr 24, 2024 20:37
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I used to think it was a plot hole, but now I think it's really Peak Dune to think about how Yueh's conditioning failed. First, there's the Bene Gesserit theory, meaning it was a situation where multiple factions have so many plans and schemes they end up tripping over each other. But in canon, everything's already kind of falling apart and has been coasting on reputation for thousands of years: the Sardaukar aren't half of what they're cracked up to be, the Emperor playing power games in CHOAM to snip a rising challenger ends up collapsing the whole system, the Guild is letting the Fremen become an existential threat because they're getting bribes, everyone constantly assumes the fundamentals will keep going, even as they undermine them ruthlessly. Then you've got the fact that the Baron himself doesn't seem to actually understand how he did it, since Yueh betrays the Atreides and then catches the Baron off guard when he nearly kills him too—my read from the books is that he betrayed the Atreides to kill the Baron. It's all a total clusterfuck of people messing with things they don't understand as well as they think they do and getting bit in the rear end for it. And finally, the core theme of the Dune novels nobody wants to acknowledge is cheesy bullshit about love. Jessica breaks from the Bene Gesserit's explicit orders because she loves Leto too much to deny him a son; Yueh breaks Suk conditioning because he loves his wife more than ten thousand years of honed psychological conditioning can defeat. It's that combination of smart and dumb that just makes Dune work.
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Apr 24, 2024 20:53
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Precambrian posted:I used to think it was a plot hole, but now I think it's really Peak Dune to think about how Yueh's conditioning failed. First, there's the Bene Gesserit theory, meaning it was a situation where multiple factions have so many plans and schemes they end up tripping over each other. But in canon, everything's already kind of falling apart and has been coasting on reputation for thousands of years: the Sardaukar aren't half of what they're cracked up to be, the Emperor playing power games in CHOAM to snip a rising challenger ends up collapsing the whole system, the Guild is letting the Fremen become an existential threat because they're getting bribes, everyone constantly assumes the fundamentals will keep going, even as they undermine them ruthlessly. Then you've got the fact that the Baron himself doesn't seem to actually understand how he did it, since Yueh betrays the Atreides and then catches the Baron off guard when he nearly kills him too—my read from the books is that he betrayed the Atreides to kill the Baron. It's all a total clusterfuck of people messing with things they don't understand as well as they think they do and getting bit in the rear end for it. Yah true, especially the italic bit. If you have to put one throughline to all the books, it’s “the Bene Gesserit take 8000+ years to decide that maybe love and letting people choose who they want to have sex with is alright, after all”
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Apr 24, 2024 20:59
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"can't believe i went to college for this poo poo" i sigh as i punch in at the dik suking faktory
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Apr 24, 2024 21:05
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I think the actual answer is that Suk Conditioning is just a new branding of the Hippocratic Oath, and just as binding, but.. When/where/how did the Baron manage to kidnap Wanna? Assuming she was brought to Geidi Prime from somewhere else, would the Navigators be prescient enough to notice that a kidnapped person was on their ship? Are they in on it? Would the emperor allow such a transgression against an imperial conditioned Suk doctor go unpunished? Is he in on it? Wouldn't the Bene Gesserit be furious that one of their own was kidnapped? Are they in on it? This thing could go deep! Plans within plans... Maybe Leto told Yueh that if he was ever imminently at risk of being captured and tortured, to just go ahead and euthanize him, and this Rube Goldberg poison tooth plan was just a way to carry that act out while protecting the other family members. The Baron was a cancer, and Yueh sought to chop off a limb to save the rest of the family.
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Apr 24, 2024 21:16
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Atreides and Harks are mid-vendetta, kidnapping each other’s subjects for nefarious purposes is probably a-ok with the Guild as long as it’s kept small scale. That’s how the Atreides got Idaho and Halleck, for example.
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Apr 24, 2024 21:19
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"Yeah I have a wife, but the Baron kidnapped her, so you've probably never met her" is Dune's "My girlfriend lives in Canada."
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Apr 24, 2024 21:21
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Precambrian posted:I used to think it was a plot hole, but now I think it's really Peak Dune to think about how Yueh's conditioning failed. First, there's the Bene Gesserit theory, meaning it was a situation where multiple factions have so many plans and schemes they end up tripping over each other. But in canon, everything's already kind of falling apart and has been coasting on reputation for thousands of years: the Sardaukar aren't half of what they're cracked up to be, the Emperor playing power games in CHOAM to snip a rising challenger ends up collapsing the whole system, the Guild is letting the Fremen become an existential threat because they're getting bribes, everyone constantly assumes the fundamentals will keep going, even as they undermine them ruthlessly. Then you've got the fact that the Baron himself doesn't seem to actually understand how he did it, since Yueh betrays the Atreides and then catches the Baron off guard when he nearly kills him too—my read from the books is that he betrayed the Atreides to kill the Baron. It's all a total clusterfuck of people messing with things they don't understand as well as they think they do and getting bit in the rear end for it.
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Apr 24, 2024 21:27
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"my girlfriend lives on Giedi Prime." "I am SO sorry."
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Apr 24, 2024 22:24
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