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Firstly, there is a TRAILER for the new movie, D U N C by DENIS VILLENEUVE: Be warned that, it's a trailer. If you want to avoid visual/stylistic, or narrative spoilers, this trailer and entire OP is fairly spoiler-lite but I absolve myself of any responsibility for your spoiler-status beyond this point all the same. This thread is almost three years of open, unrestrained book discussion that's littered with untagged spoilers. More recent discussion will (hopefuly) observe some decorum about this, but seriously, if you care about spoilers, evaluate whether or not to continue! Thanks! As a matter of courtesy, I'd ask anyone talking about books to leave questions about narrative and such spoilered. ---- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAQCH3wObeU Denis Villeneuve made the movies Sicario, Arrival, and the Blade Runner followup. If you've seen his work, you know he has a pretty distinct style. One I've always thought would be prime for Dune and I'm frankly floored someone like Denis got to do this. This was probably the best possible outcome for a Dune adaptation, and hey this is maybe the dumbest possible bright spot in this awful, awful yuear. The dune series is a series of really good books. They're branded as sci-fi but the hard-sci is scant. This is a book series about the capacities of the human mind, weird drugs, sietch orgies, religion as a tool of statecraft, in a world that came to eschew thinking machines for the danger they posed to humanity. For this reason you're not likely to read too many words describing anything like the computer as we know it. The first three books are set really far in the future, and the second set is even way drat further into the future.\ The first three books are also kind of their own self contained story, and many people think you can and should start and finish here.    God Emperor Of Dune is a really weird book. I haven't read anything else like it, ever. It's also the bridge between the first three books and the next series. I think the merits of this book place it up there with the first, but it's a polarizing book. It's also the beginning of Frank Herbert typing a bunch of weird sex poo poo probably with his rock hard dick while smoking a shitload of weed. The only thing I can say about this book is, you should really read everything prior before attempting it, it relies heavily on the context laid down before it.  These two are the ones written toward the end, and Frank died before writing the last in a planned trilogy.   Brian Herbert (May God rip his tongue out) decided, decades after the death of his dad, to use his dad's notes and concepts to save his own floundering career, and wrote a book I haven't read but by all accounts doesn't come close to touching the level of his father's abilities as a writer. But if you like pulp sci-fi and just like reading poo poo, and don't have an irrational dislike for them arousing out of your love for the old books, you can probably do worse. I can't say for sure. Anyway these books are books I love, and I like talking about them. I've picked up a handful of the originals on Audible, and I have to say the audiobook for Dune is really loving great. I just finished Messiah and I am now into Children Of Dune. Everyone should read and venerate these books imo. Riot Bimbo fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2017 10:01
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Vaginal Vagrant posted:Thanks basic hitler now I will forever see that weird dick worm guy when I think of Frank Herbert's rock hard dick. Frank's cock was named Leto for sure. I feel like Dune Messiah is way more straightforward than even Dune itself. It's not bouncing around a whole bunch of characters, instead it hones in on Paul and just a few other pov's, and the narrative scope is very narrow and more traditional. I remember children of dune the least, and it's why i started this adventure again. I'm glad to be back to it and reading it again, but so far it's about the same. God Emperor is so loving weird as i recall it, once i finally understood what was happening i had a WAIT WHAT moment and i made myself reread everything before that moment to grasp it again. Loved it though.
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Dec 9, 2017 10:18
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Zippy the Bummer posted:That's interesting, I think one of the reason's I enjoyed Dune more than any of the others was because it struck me as the one having the most cohesive and straightforward plot and characters. It had some weirdness, but it made sense given that it is set a bajillion years or whatever in the future and is easily accounted for. Messiah ramps up the weird factor at the expense of compelling plot and narrative, and the others just seem to get worse. Well, Messiah deals a lot with the religious aspects of his life. He's kind of having to live with a lot of choices, because he chose a path of survival that required joining the Fremen under a religious pretext, and how he's extolled as a living God. It's going to ponder on religion quite a bit. I haven't sketched out the theme of Children yet but I hope it's gonna go elsewhere. We'll see.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:05
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Zippy the Bummer posted:I see that, I do, and I think that might be why Messiah and some of the other sequels left my enthusiasm dulled. Dune is so different from the others, I think, and I was expecting them all to be roughly the same in style, if not quality. I think Herbert hated stagnation a lot. The fear of a stagnant humanity runs rampant through the books, it follows that if he couldn't do things slightly differently every time, he didn't really want to do it. Why write more dune stuff without changing what it's about? I'm not trying to sell you on something you didn't like, by the way, so don't take it that way. Dune is definitely different, but I think it's different because it's relatively unfocused. It has things to say about technology, war, power, gender politics, drug abuse, asceticism versus hedonism, and a bunch of other poo poo, but it's also why it's different from the rest of the books, maybe.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:27
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Harrower posted:Was the personal shield/lasgun interaction ever addressed? Seems like two standard pieces of any soldiers kit that could be combined to form the equivalent of a nuclear weapon is a real bad idea. That's assuming some one purposely trying to inflict as much mayhem as possible, let alone some one just bungling it and firing off a blast that accidentally hits an active shield. I think lasguns were expensive to make and deploy, making them cost prohibitive except for someone like house corinno and harkonnen, maybe? It's been a couple of weeks now, but i seem to recall that the lasgun-shield reaction engulfs both parties and is nuclear in nature. It seems like if you were waging interplanetary warfare, you could create las-bombs that would react with shielded palaces and cities to wipe out entire strategic assets and all, but for troop to troop ground warfare, the risk of a blast hitting a shield and killing both defender and attacker meant that under most circumstances an army would not have access to lasguns when their opponent was known to deploy shields
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Dec 9, 2017 11:42
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Harrower posted:Suicide bombers today are a pretty major concern and the best most of them can manage is some ANFO wrapped with nails. Giving those guys nukes seems like a real problem. They were probably out of reach for the common citizenry cost wise, but it's not like the dune universe is short of wealthy malcontents. From what I can recall almost any vaguely militaristic organization had them readily available, and the governments hardly had the economy under control as there were smugglers and black markets selling stuff all over the place. I've been following dune discussions here and there for years and I've just never seen an answer that wasn't opinion and speculation. The books just sort of go along with it and never play it out which always annoyed me. What's funny is that Duncan Idaho actually does this while on the run. It's not a suicide, but he does trick the sardukar into firing on shields and it wipes out a fuckload of them. The world of Dune is governed by a society that's very different. It has a very serf-peasant-lord class hierarchy until Messiah where the fuedal government is replaced with a theocracy with a reigning priest class, but the divisions of class don't really change. In order to become a terrorist you need an education, a cause to do it for, and radical motivations. Ask yourself if the average person who could be radicalized into a suicidal frenzy would be likely to access an expensive weapon that's likely closely restricted. The houses who can get such things don't do it or encourage it, because it puts them at risk of reprisal by other houses. The dune universe is very medieval in its government and socialstructure. That's basically necessary, as space is insurmountable geography except for those who can afford to fly by way of a guild heighliner. If the guys who make lasguns are on another planet, and the only people who can import lasguns are the local reigning house, and they control their use tightly, a lasgun in a private citizen's hands, much less an extremist radical looking to blow themselves to shreds would need state support or be very drat lucky. I'm also gonna say that Frank almost certainly didn't think about it as much as you or I have. Again, without some law or gentlemans agreement, an erected shield is basically begging any hostile house to make a weapon that triggers a lasgun blast on a timer or remotely to detonate large shielded objects. A palace shield basically becomes a "PLEASE TURN ME INTO A HUGE BOMB" sign. There is a big problem with shields as they exist in Dune without more information than was ever described, for sure.
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Dec 9, 2017 12:24
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Lareine posted:I've read up to God Emperor. I've heard Heretics gets weirdo somehow. it's set way after that book, and right as the consequences of leto's actions really start to affect the old imperium. It is pretty weird, and you won't recognize any of the characters (except one or two!) and they contain vivid descriptions of women who have sex so well that they can turn anyone they gently caress into a nearly mindless slave. I had a hard time reading it after a sequence basically played out like "you are just like a bene gesserit witch! your games will not work on me!" "she contorted her pussy in the honored matre way, and the pleasure overloaded his brain" "drat... I am now your slave." but it has its merits in spite of that silliness. Riot Bimbo fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Dec 9, 2017 |
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Dec 9, 2017 12:28
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Yeah, it follows that lasguns would be hard to get. projectile and explosive weapons exist and are employed to great effect and the lasguns and such are basically high-end shinies for special operations by landsraad houses.
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Dec 9, 2017 13:02
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I've seen goons bring up the disowned gay son thing repeatedly and my admittedly shallow excursions yield no information about it. It feels like even a skin deep search would yield a source for this allegation if it were real. Can you provide something so i can not be dumb about it? The only homophobic readings that are ever inferred by anyone are due to the baron being an evil scheming gay man, and the conclusion that's leapt to is a hard conclusion of overt homophobia, which is extreme. The baron's homosexuality feels incidental to his evilness and that feels backed up by the actions of his nephews. I'd love a source for anything regarding those allegations. I bet he wasn't a good dad, but he doesn't strike me as a "disown my diseased gay son" type. From what I can tell he just hated soviets, heavy metal, and distrusted government. Seems pretty reasonable for an American who came of age during the depression. Homophobia would, also, be pretty expected of someone born in 1920 but I'm not interested in excusing anything, i only want a source for it.
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Dec 9, 2017 13:46
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:"Dreamer of Dune" by Brian Herbert I believe. Found a quote finally, interpret this as you will. It doesn't sound like his son was disowned, only that he had a terribly poo poo relationship with Bruce Herbert. quote:Bruce's homosexuality was had never been accepted by my father, and they had never reached full rapprochement. Still, when my brother came to Seatle he broke into tears while riding in the backseat of my car. Penny and Jan consoled him. My brother told me later that he didn't cry from love, because he didn't feel he loved the man. He said he cried from what he had never experienced in the relationship between his father. I feel very bad for Bruce  There's a very bizarre and lovely conversation going on at this website and it's where i finally found a quote referencing this stuff, but the quotes seem legit and there's more if you care about frank herbert's awareness http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2832
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Dec 9, 2017 14:08
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Endorsing Brian Herbert books should be disallowed. In fact i am putting a polite moratorium on it. If you are a nice fellow who doesn't want to be a jerk, don't do this. I can't stop it but you shouldn't do that!
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Dec 9, 2017 15:16
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Milo and POTUS posted:I never made it to God Emperor what happens thats so mind blowing God Emperor is just an odd loving book man. It was hard to understand at all, when it finally clicked with me i was afraid i had missed a lot by not understanding it up until that point, and i was right.
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Dec 9, 2017 15:42
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Vaginal Vagrant posted:Iirc lasguns are outlawed by the great convention. Any house found using them will face the combined wrath of ever other house, yada yada. They aren't, however a lasgun + shield explosion looks no different from an atomic blast. You have to be really careful about using them or your intended victim can easily turn that accident into opporunity by screaming about atrocities with atomic weapons and then you're 100% hosed by the rules of that society
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Dec 9, 2017 16:06
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I think the guy who got it has a very good shot at making a good movie, unless he gets the hard dick producer screw that Lynch got.
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Dec 9, 2017 16:55
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I really liked how he kicked mankind so very far out into the future (something like 20,000 years from this date for the beginning of Dune, and I don't know , a lot more for God Emperor, and at least a few thousand more for heretics/chapterhouse). It's so far into the future that mankind is on the cusp of not really being anything like humans as we'd recognize them. Their culture is a strange amalgam of our conservative past with concessions to the needs of Herbert's deep unknowable future, religions whose names we may recognize partially (zensunni, orange catholic bible, etc.) in theory are nothing like their names imply in reality. He has to pay zero heed or care to the mankind of today from a plot and story perspective. Our culture and politics only matter insofar as they informed Frank Herbert himself. You almost can't become morally alienated from Dune itself, as the setting removes itself from an actual earthly context as much as possible. Frank Herbert said balls to all of that, i'm gonna write a book about a bunch of feudal space weirdos who rely on LSD for space travel with an entirely unrecognizable, frequently objectionable society.
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Dec 9, 2017 19:18
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I dunno, it kinda makes sense for the most prevalent government structure to be one that's stable under isolated conditions to be the one that prevails here, especially since the giant corporation and secretive guild that control space travel, who has nearly unlimited access to resource rich worlds, have profit margins that really like stability at the macro scale, and isolated despotic worlds with stratified social hierarchies are probably ideal to them for that reason.
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Dec 9, 2017 19:47
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I really want to sit in a chairdog.
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Dec 9, 2017 19:49
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Damo posted:I've read Dune twice and it was great both times. There is no reason to read anything past Dune. Just stop, seriously. If you get apologists telling you anything else, ignore it. Dune is fantastic. Everything else is garbage. I have warned you. Don't be a dummy buddy or i'll turn you into a creature in the shape of a chair who can only respond to requests like "fimer", "softer" "lumbar support poochy" "come here boy, the duke's back aches today"
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Dec 9, 2017 23:23
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I relate to them so much that Miles Teg is practically my spirit animal and Odrade is the very essence of my feminine side.
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Dec 10, 2017 00:04
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several references to the middle east. deserts, and zen-sunni
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Dec 10, 2017 03:05
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Children Of Dune is, i think a good deal better than messiah so far.
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Dec 10, 2017 07:12
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no-ships and no-rooms make little sense but i guess he really wrote himself into a corner of the possible stories that could be told under the spectre of prescient demigods.
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Dec 10, 2017 21:21
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Yueh was suspected and nearly caught by Jessica and Hawat but mitigating circumstance and chance saved him.
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Dec 10, 2017 22:00
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Spinster posted:Your new av really sucks I like it on a certain level but i've been thinking about going back to my duck or that thing you made a while back for a new av. we'll see.
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Dec 10, 2017 22:32
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Milo and POTUS posted:Conversely, this is totally poo poo: lmfao jesus chrsit *opens up milkshake and twists some poo poo around and adds a couple of sandy textures, exports as .jpg* *photoshops a bowl of fruit* This right here, this is a good audiobook cover.
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Dec 10, 2017 23:02
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Milo and POTUS posted:its even more insulting because its the alternative to this I used to have this book cover as the copy in my house. It was really good. Altho this is the same dune book i have, it even has promos for the movie on the back side. It's kinda cheeseball but I like it 
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Dec 10, 2017 23:17
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TBH i could see a Leto II tatoo working as well. If I ever get a dune tattoo i will try to find something easy enough to lie about, i dunno if i could explain away leto ii without coming off as a nerd so i'll probably never get it but i could see it working for someone else. i mean, i come off as a nerd without a Dune tattoo. i don't need permanent nerd ink to make it more obvious.
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Dec 11, 2017 03:10
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I've really been thinking about it, and i'm basically convinced that Lynch Dune is a good movie, but that it does have flaws you'd have to be blind to ignore. It feels like most of those flaws are easy to plant on the De Laurentiis group who produced it. Weirding modules are a weird choice but i understand why Lynch didn't want to actually adapt Weirding Way Space Kung-Fu in 1984. I just have to wonder... whose fault is the rain at the end? Surely lynch read the book and didn't put the rain there... That had to be a producer's decision?
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Dec 11, 2017 08:14
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yeah same the theme that plays when paul rides shai hulud owns.
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Dec 11, 2017 08:27
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i wonder how lucky i was to be looking at a girl the second my nads dropped. i wonder if i had not gone to camp goddard with the rest of my class, and had instead been at home all week.... would i have also been watching kyle ride the worm and feel an emotional rush intense and overwhelming enough to turn me hard gay? One does wonder.
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Dec 11, 2017 08:56
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Could paul atreides see the potential futures where he had been gay?
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Dec 11, 2017 08:57
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:yeah that's how it works It's totally how it works. One day your body drops a hormone based atomic bomb and you become attracted to whatever it imprints on your brain! Of course this doesn't explain why i would also gently caress kyle machlachlan in Dune
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Dec 11, 2017 09:03
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"Hmm cousin.. Being a supreme wormly rear end in a top hat, you will give me the sardukar and in exchange i promise to not wipe your line out and i will rename you "breaking of the habit". Deal?" "poo poo... Uh... Ok."
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Dec 11, 2017 14:05
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Shaddam wasn't really a genius and far more ego driven than anything else.
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Dec 12, 2017 07:16
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Piggy Smalls posted:Your dumb. The new books by his son were real good. I’ve read them multiple times for real. You need to get smacked around a little bit for this opinion
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Dec 12, 2017 21:31
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Idaho is pretty great honestly. he's a written and not merely described badass in children of dune.
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Dec 12, 2017 23:01
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the blade runner guy is attached to a new one right now
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Dec 12, 2017 23:03
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I always read the butlerian jihad as a hard rebellion against the weakening of mankind caused by THINKING MACHINES like how the internet and facebook even in 2017 has turned us into soft weak babymen. Not a terminator-esque war against the machines
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Dec 12, 2017 23:15
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Just started god emperor on audible. Lol the cover is like wolfshirt.jpg because i guess gently caress paying to license cool book art
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Dec 13, 2017 20:36
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The actual God Emperor depicted in the book has extremely agile and effective hand appendages, in the area around his head, and the whole thing can become enclosed by a larger worm head if needed. This is pretty close to how I see him in my mind's eye: 
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Dec 18, 2017 04:28
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