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What was the most egregiously broken Core 1.0 stuff?
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Jan 14, 2018 17:43
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food court bailiff posted:What was the most egregiously broken Core 1.0 stuff? Orange and yellow cards.
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Jan 14, 2018 18:10
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Elizabeth Mills posted:Orange and yellow cards. Come on, it took some time for yog and parasite to achive the notoriety of account siphon. PS. Desperado and Engineering the future might be omitted in goon answers, as they're really not spectacular in any way, but their steady numbers couldn't be beaten by any alternatives until the eventual rotation.
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Jan 14, 2018 18:25
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Astroscript Pilot Program and SanSan City Grid were two big ones.
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Jan 14, 2018 18:33
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And on the other end, it's totally nuts to realize Clone Chip and SMC, literally the two cards that define Shaper as an identity, aren't in Core 1.0
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Jan 14, 2018 19:38
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Lichtenstein posted:Come on, it took some time for yog and parasite to achive the notoriety of account siphon. I agree that Desperado being axed was great. It was JUST good enough to make all other crim consoles pointless.
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Jan 14, 2018 19:46
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Astroscript, ETF, Noise, Kate, Desperado, Yog would be my picks. Parasite and Account Siphon often get mentioned but they only became problematic with the rest of the card pool (recursion basically)
Zephro fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jan 14, 2018 |
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Jan 14, 2018 22:31
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Help me out here - is there a list of cards that are no longer legal somewhere? The NAPD list doesn't have things that are rotated out. I'm just trying to figure out how much of this World Champ 2015 Corp deck I grabbed to qualify for one-day shipping is still viable and I don't really want to cross check against the list of cards from two whole cycles if I can just check them against a central list of rotated out cards somewhere. E: I ask because I feel like I have enough cards salvaged from the Core 1.0 plus random data pack stuff to set up two decks per side pretty comfortably for entry level play - but if this H-B deck works pretty much out of the box I might as well take advantage of that, plus it would be a good benchmark for Runner decks. Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jan 14, 2018 |
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Jan 14, 2018 22:33
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Corroder was firmly in the "unassuming, but couldn't be outprinted" camp too.
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Jan 14, 2018 22:38
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Lichtenstein posted:Corroder was firmly in the "unassuming, but couldn't be outprinted" camp too. you say that but they printed paperclip
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Jan 14, 2018 22:39
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Astro is by far the most busted card and didn't require anything else to function. Sure it benefited from SfSS, CVS and the others, but it was always an extremely strong card even by itself that you could bluff out or rush and that would often just win you the game. It was effectively 4-6 points in the bank. Astro was a hugely effective fast advance tool and the fact that it was must-include due to its 3/2 meant that every single NBN deck had a " and Fast Advance" tacked on to the end regardless of its intended strategy. At the height of NEH dominance, most games boiled down to NBN vs Criminals, who seemed to be the only faction fast enough to try to intercept those early Astros. A dedicated FA NBN would blast through its deck with Jackson looking for Astro and the first FA tool or gearcheck and the game often boiled down to whether the Runner could burn through R&D fast enough to find the first and second Astros before the Corp player found either.
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Jan 14, 2018 22:49
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Most of the busto stuff from Core 1.0 really didn't break until they had worked through the cards made in the game's initial design. Astro was NBN's big advantage to make up for their lackluster ice in Core/Genesis (designed at the same time and meant to exist as a single product.) It wasn't until the game developed that it really solidified that 3/2s are just straight up too good, especially when they were blank or had an upside. Thing was, there was also stuff in those initial packs that didn't make it into Core when it obviously was supposed to like the "baseline" criminal decoder, "Peacock." Just a weird quirk of the early game being more successful that expected. Look at it this way, someday you may have the chance to play a Vintage event with all that bullshit and the smugness of cracking a Black Lotus for a Gray Ogre.
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Jan 15, 2018 15:43
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So now that temujin and desperado and siphon are gone, what's the standard way for crims to make shitloads of money? Spam security testing? e: Bank Job? Aeneas Informant? CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jan 15, 2018 |
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Jan 15, 2018 16:02
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Splash in Magnum Opus. Or some Anarch econ (now that's some irony).
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Jan 15, 2018 16:39
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So the way Restricted cards work isn't that you can only have one copy - it's that you can have up to a full playset of any one Restricted card, right? That's bizarre but kind of elegant? e: Are all the Neutral cards in Core pretty much essential for their side? Is there a guide somewhere on suggested ways to use your influence splash for each faction or anything like that? And why is Chaos Theory's minimum deck size 40 - her Link is the same as Gabe and her +1 chip doesn't seem to tip the balance too far either way...does it? Sorry for asking so many questions! Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Jan 15, 2018 |
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Jan 15, 2018 16:42
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CodfishCartographer posted:So now that temujin and desperado and siphon are gone, what's the standard way for crims to make shitloads of money? Spam security testing? Splash for SacCon and put them in tapwrm hell
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Jan 15, 2018 17:29
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food court bailiff posted:So the way Restricted cards work isn't that you can only have one copy - it's that you can have up to a full playset of any one Restricted card, right? That's bizarre but kind of elegant? Yup, that’s how restricted cards work! choose one of the restricted cards that’ll benefit your deck most, include 3 copies of it or whatever, then go on your way. It’s been a while since I’ve played just core, but I think that the neutral cards are definitely needed because of the lack of card pool. When it comes to spending influence though, the best choice of action is more or less “what can i replace in my deck that other factions can do better?” As an example, say you’re playing Criminal, and you want more draw power in your deck. You have Mr. Li, who works well to get specific cards you want, but he’s slow and you want your deck to move much faster. So you could spend some influence to import Diesel from Shaper. Or it could just be that you have some spare influence, so why not swap out Peacock for the more efficient Gordian Blade? Each faction has a weakness somewhere, and influence is meant to help shore up those weaknesses. As for Chaos Theory, her main gimmick is simplicity and a streamlined deck. Since she has a 40 card minimum, it means that her deck will be more consistent - fewer cards means a higher chance to draw any given card, of course. And since she comes with memory built-in, it means you don’t need to spend any deck slots on increasing memory. As you dive into deckbuilding, you’ll find deck space is a huge problem - you never have enough of it, and any place you can save is very valuable. And never worry about asking questions, it's fun helping people out!
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Jan 15, 2018 17:30
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food court bailiff posted:So the way Restricted cards work isn't that you can only have one copy - it's that you can have up to a full playset of any one Restricted card, right? That's bizarre but kind of elegant? quote:e: Are all the Neutral cards in Core pretty much essential for their side? quote:Is there a guide somewhere on suggested ways to use your influence splash for each faction or anything like that? - Criminals have poo poo breakers and currently lack money and love to import these in from other factions. - Anarchs traditionally wanted economy and weird recursion/trashing shenanigans from Shaper, or some extra hurt from Crim if they wanted to play very aggressively towards the corp. Nowadays they really don't lack many thing in-house, so it's mostly multi-accesses, meta cards and combos. - Shapers have a lot of neat ways to buff and interact with programs and like to seek these, which have nice synergies. Criminal threats to HQ don't hurt either. quote:And why is Chaos Theory's minimum deck size 40 - her Link is the same as Gabe and her +1 chip doesn't seem to tip the balance too far either way...does it? It's an advangate - just like her +MU it's not super crucial, but neat. If you have a very focused deck, you can get your stuff all that faster with the smaller size. In her case, extra MU often allows you to skip having a console at all - and given tutors for programs, she can rush drat fast for a Shaper! It's far from my favorite ID, but if you want simple and efficient, she'll make things run that much smoother.
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Jan 15, 2018 18:03
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Gotcha. I'm really asking mostly about the staples, since I salvaged all the legal cards from my Core 1 I have multiple playsets of some stuff, and with the random smattering of Datapacks I have I could probably put together decks for each faction that are legal if not particularly playable. If I get real hard up for decks I might see about buying a used original Core for more Hedge Funds, Sure Gambles and whatever else. Obviously I'm also really going to need to play a lot more to learn the difference between weaknesses in a faction/deck and just suboptimal play. Thanks for the help guys.
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Jan 15, 2018 18:09
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I'm buying back in, been out since I saw Sifr. I think I get all the MWL stuff, but there's no reason to buy a revised core, yeah? Are there any packs from Quorum on that I can straight skip? Is TD necessary?
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Jan 15, 2018 20:43
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Thinking about Criminal econs, I’ve got a rules question for you guys. So I’ve read about the Zamba + GPI Net Tap combo, where you expose a piece of ice then get a credit for it, along with the expose helping to fuel Aumakua. However, if you have 3 GPI’s installed, can you expose a piece of ice three times to get 3 credits? Can you expose rezzed ice? Can I just get 3c on every piece of ice in a server?
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Jan 15, 2018 20:53
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Somberbrero posted:there's no reason to buy a revised core, yeah? No, unless you want to play Chaos Theory because that new art is 💥💥💣
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Jan 15, 2018 22:43
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CodfishCartographer posted:Thinking about Criminal econs, I’ve got a rules question for you guys. So I’ve read about the Zamba + GPI Net Tap combo, where you expose a piece of ice then get a credit for it, along with the expose helping to fuel Aumakua. However, if you have 3 GPI’s installed, can you expose a piece of ice three times to get 3 credits? Can you expose rezzed ice? Can I just get 3c on every piece of ice in a server? From the Core Rulebook: quote:Some effects expose one or more cards. Generally, only unrezzed installed cards can be exposed, unless an ability specifies otherwise. An exposed card is revealed to all players, and then returned to its previous state. If multiple cards are exposed by one effect, they are considered to be exposed simultaneously. So no, you can't expose a rezzed piece of ICE. But it's still 3 credits to expose it and if/when Crims start getting econ denial cards again, it seems like a pretty good engine to be running if you can make the corp not able to rez ice.
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Jan 15, 2018 22:53
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berenzen posted:From the Core Rulebook: Ah, thanks. I was thinking of running it in a Los derez deck. Is there enough derez support to make that A Thing now? 1-3c from GPI, 2 on rez from los, then 2c from Keros, if derezzing using Rubicon that's free derez for any ice priced 5-7c, and a profit if it's cheaper than that. Could see a prolonged game of that really taking a toll on a corp. CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jan 15, 2018 |
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Jan 15, 2018 23:06
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Elizabeth Mills posted:No, unless you want to play Chaos Theory because that new art is 💥💥💣 Speaking of which, I will send that tomorrow Quid >.>
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Jan 15, 2018 23:12
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I'm only a few games in from my half-decade hiatus here and I find the corp player is often having trouble getting enough meaningful ICE to protect several servers at once, which makes it really hard to reliably protect Agendas. Any hot tips? This has all been Weyland against Anarch so far.
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Jan 16, 2018 03:51
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food court bailiff posted:I'm only a few games in from my half-decade hiatus here and I find the corp player is often having trouble getting enough meaningful ICE to protect several servers at once, which makes it really hard to reliably protect Agendas. Any hot tips? This has all been Weyland against Anarch so far. Haha yeah, that'll happen. So early game, Runner usually has the advantage. That's just sort of the nature of the design, it costs nothing to run. Mid-game should be where you take that advantage back. Use 'gear check' ICE, low-cost with ETR subs of each type, to force them to find all their breakers. End game, if the Runner has their breakers, multi-access, and credits, you just need to close out as quickly as possible. But really, you're not going to be able to protect everything at once. If you have lots of Agendas in hand, it's probably okay to leave R&D open for a couple turns. Just protect what you absolutely need to. My knowledge is a year out of date, but watch for what each Runner tries to pressure first in your games and then use that knowledge going forward.
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Jan 16, 2018 04:42
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food court bailiff posted:I'm only a few games in from my half-decade hiatus here and I find the corp player is often having trouble getting enough meaningful ICE to protect several servers at once, which makes it really hard to reliably protect Agendas. Any hot tips? This has all been Weyland against Anarch so far. Weyland has a couple pieces of ICE I really like, namely Bailiff and Errand Boy. Bailiff is a great gearcheck because it turns into a pop-up window later in the game, it's like a PAD Campaign that ends the run. Errand Boy is just plain powerful, letting you dilute HQ and get a credit lead at the same time, and is a royal pain to break.
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Jan 16, 2018 05:08
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food court bailiff posted:I'm only a few games in from my half-decade hiatus here and I find the corp player is often having trouble getting enough meaningful ICE to protect several servers at once, which makes it really hard to reliably protect Agendas. Any hot tips? This has all been Weyland against Anarch so far. Start thinking in terms of scoring windows, in other words, creating opportunities in which you can get an agenda scored while the runner isn't capable of stopping you. Early-to-mid game that might be because they're poor from setting up or because they need a breaker they don't have. Mid-to-late game is a bit different because the runner often has the ability to get in wherever they want. So you need to start thinking about bluffs and taxing, or about using other tools to get the win. Bluffs/tax: if you're at 5 or 6 agenda points the Runner has little choice but to check every face down card in a remote, because it might be a 3/1 or 3/2 agenda that will lose them the game next turn if you score it. That means you can play never-advance games - put an asset or upgrade in a server every turn and force the runner to check it, hopefully draining their money faster than they can regain it. Then when they're too poor to get in for a turn, you can score a real agenda and win. Any asset will do - Adonis Campaign, Melange Mining Corp, whatever. The point is just to drain the runner's cash by forcing them to pay through all your ICE every turn. Snare! is even better, since it will cost them money to get past the ICE, then they'll take damage and a tag which will cost them clicks and more money to undo. Advanceable traps like Project Junebug and Aggressive Secretary can masquerade as 4/2s or 5/3s depending on whether you advance them once or twice. Aggressive Secretary in particular can create scoring windows by trashing a breaker, leaving the runner unable to break one type of ICE. It's a more expensive strat than never-advance since you need to commit several clicks and credits to get it to work, but you can still try. They work best in a Jinteki deck with Ronin, though, since that creates a lose/lose for the runner (check and risk hitting a trap, don't check and risk letting an agenda through or eating a bunch of net damage later). You can also leverage other advantages. If you're considerably richer than the runner you can feed them an agenda then use a Punitive Counterstrike or two to try to kill them. That works best with 5/3s, since it's hard for the runner to survive 6 meat damage in a turn, but if they're sloppy and finish their turn with a hand size less than 3 then 4/2s or 3/2s will work too. A rich corp can use Ash to stop the runner stealing an agenda for a turn, creating a scoring window. Biotic Labour allows you to score a 3/2 or a 3/1 straight from your hand, or a 4/2 straight from the table, making it a good way to close out a game. Weyland has Hostile Takeover which can always be scored from your hand, giving you another way to get the final point or two. Zephro fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 12:04
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Again, thanks everyone for your help and advice. I've been checking out Stimhack and uh...I think I've been playing some stuff wrong. I was under the impression that basically only Agendas could be Advanced face-down, everything else that could get Advanced needed to be Rezzed (since most advancement effects are on the card itself). But Gene Splicer from Sovereign Sight seems to throw a wrench in that idea. Can you advance ANY advance-able card when it's face down? FE: I guess this makes sense with like...Aggressive Secretary and stuff. Is it just Ambush subtypes or something?
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Jan 16, 2018 18:07
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food court bailiff posted:Again, thanks everyone for your help and advice. Any card that can be advanced can be advanced when facedown, yes. (You still can't advance ice/upgrades/assets unless they explicitly say so or the effect says "place an advancement counter" rather than "advance")
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Jan 16, 2018 18:12
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Even ICE? So (assuming you somehow had a shitload of clicks and money you had absolutely nothing better to do with) you could advance a face down Shadow and then rez it at +whatever strength when a run hits it? We'd definitely been playing it so it had to be rezzed, this is going to change some things haha.
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Jan 16, 2018 18:14
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food court bailiff posted:Even ICE? So (assuming you somehow had a shitload of clicks and money you had absolutely nothing better to do with) you could advance a face down Shadow and then rez it at +whatever strength when a run hits it? We'd definitely been playing it so it had to be rezzed, this is going to change some things haha. You can do this, yeah. (It's kind of a waste of money and time but that's advanceable ice for ya)
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Jan 16, 2018 18:17
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StashAugustine posted:You can do this, yeah. (It's kind of a waste of money and time but that's advanceable ice for ya) The default for all advanceable ICE should always have been +1 Str per advance AND whatever effect.
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Jan 16, 2018 18:25
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Advanceable ICE has been getting quite a bit better lately in fairness. Admittedly from a very low base but still Edit for super clarity: but yes you're right. Aggressive Secretary can be advanced while facedown. So can Project Junebug, Ronin and probably some other core cards I'm forgetting. If they couldn't they'd never fire because the runner could see what they were. The point is the runner doesn't know if they're agendas or not (though you can often make an educated guess) Zephro fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 18:51
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Uh what are the rules for rearranging installed ICE/servers a la the cards in Sovereign Sight? I read the Stimhack review of the set and know it's not really optimal but was throwing together a Jinteki deck to play around with and couldn't help but throw a few Metamorphs and Forced Reseeding Project or whatever that ICE and Agenda are called. Seems like it could be a way to at least keep things interesting, or possibly help maximize the value of whatever I can manage to install, but the text is pretty vague.
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Jan 17, 2018 01:23
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food court bailiff posted:Uh what are the rules for rearranging installed ICE/servers a la the cards in Sovereign Sight? I read the Stimhack review of the set and know it's not really optimal but was throwing together a Jinteki deck to play around with and couldn't help but throw a few Metamorphs and Forced Reseeding Project or whatever that ICE and Agenda are called. Seems like it could be a way to at least keep things interesting, or possibly help maximize the value of whatever I can manage to install, but the text is pretty vague. There really isn't a point to it unless you somehow need to stuff The Turning Wheel runs on R&D because you have a Kakugo on the outside, that's the only real reason to ever shuffle ice. ( RIP RSVP and Chum)
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Jan 17, 2018 01:45
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Jinteki has some ICE whose effectiveness depends on its positioning and NBN has some (in that case it's ICE that wants the runner tagged and ICE that tags him, preferably without traces). There's also Curtain Wall, I guess. In general, you don't really want to ever reposition stuff, but when playing with these positional cards you keep the effect as a backup for when you inevitably draw your stuff in wrong order and don't want to be stuck completely naked while waiting to assemble your precious combo. When you do that, there are some runner-specific things where you might want to reconsider the order of your pieces, but basically if you're not worrying about some positional combo, it's not worth the deckslots.
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Jan 17, 2018 01:53
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Metamorph could also become a must-break if you have a failed trap lying around.
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Jan 17, 2018 01:54
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food court bailiff posted:Uh what are the rules for rearranging installed ICE/servers a la the cards in Sovereign Sight? I read the Stimhack review of the set and know it's not really optimal but was throwing together a Jinteki deck to play around with and couldn't help but throw a few Metamorphs and Forced Reseeding Project or whatever that ICE and Agenda are called. Seems like it could be a way to at least keep things interesting, or possibly help maximize the value of whatever I can manage to install, but the text is pretty vague. To actually answer your question, swapping ice means you change the places of two installed pieces of ice. When you rearrange ice, you do the same - the number of ice per server must be the same, but you change their specific positions. They remain rezzed / unrezzed, so if you swap Rezzed Ice A with Unrezzed Ice B then A stays rezzed and B stays unrezzed.
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Jan 17, 2018 02:26
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