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stone cold posted:yeah, i mean i’m not here to reason with somebody who thinks rape is good in some cases, i’m here to tell them they’re an idiot That's more than fair, I just wanted to make sure you weren't under any delusions that you might cause them to see the light. It is indeed unfortunate.
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Feb 12, 2018 02:57
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If you're all so giddy about this guy getting raped, step up and do it yourself. What difference would it make if it was you or some guy in prison if that's what Nassar deserves?
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Feb 12, 2018 05:35
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It seems to me if you sincerely believe all rape is bad and should be stopped, you implicitly have to care about nassar not being raped in prison or else theres a pretty clear contradiction I am glad this guy is never leaving prison but it's horrifying for a judge or anyone really to think prison rape is an acceptable retributive action
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Feb 12, 2018 06:17
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mandatory lesbian posted:It seems to me if you sincerely believe all rape is bad and should be stopped, you implicitly have to care about nassar not being raped in prison or else theres a pretty clear contradiction Most people can't handle nuance. They can't grasp that it's possible to want someone to be punished but also NOT want them to get loving raped. People's brains just ain't that sophisticated.
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Feb 12, 2018 07:14
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A better answer is who cares? Once he's not free to hurt people anymore it really doesn't matter to me what happens to him, he can live in comfortable Anders Behring Brevik Norway prison or he can live in privatized American torture prison, it doesn't really matter on the personal level. Just the former is better for society.
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Feb 12, 2018 07:25
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its also better for other prisoners who might rape him to be prevented from doing so, for their well-being and rehabilitation
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Feb 12, 2018 07:32
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ChairMaster posted:A better answer is who cares? Once he's not free to hurt people anymore it really doesn't matter to me what happens to him, he can live in comfortable Anders Behring Brevik Norway prison or he can live in privatized American torture prison, it doesn't really matter on the personal level. Just the former is better for society. I think more broad scale in terms of our prison system. Yeah, he's one guy but there's also millions of people in our prison system that are only there because we want retribution, not rehabilitation. Nassar is a lost cause, that doesn't mean everyone else in prison is. And those in prison if / when they get out are severely lacking in tools and resources to make it succeed in society, unlike Norway's system.
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Feb 12, 2018 08:34
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ChairMaster posted:A better answer is who cares? Once he's not free to hurt people anymore it really doesn't matter to me what happens to him, he can live in comfortable Anders Behring Brevik Norway prison or he can live in privatized American torture prison, it doesn't really matter on the personal level. Just the former is better for society. Not caring about what happens to prisoners once in prison is exactly how it became this hosed up in the first place
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Feb 12, 2018 12:14
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ChairMaster posted:A better answer is who cares? Once he's not free to hurt people anymore it really doesn't matter to me what happens to him, he can live in comfortable Anders Behring Brevik Norway prison or he can live in privatized American torture prison, it doesn't really matter on the personal level. Just the former is better for society. this is what you should care about. the reason we're telling owl fancier that he's a shithead isn't that we love nassar so much, it's because the condoning of rape in any instance perpetuates a society that sees rape as acceptable at least in some instances. that has an effect on all of society. we can either want our society to be more humane or we can celebrate when a prisoner gets assaulted, but you can't do both. also retributive justice is a horrible idea and part of the reason the US justice system is so hosed up.
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Feb 12, 2018 12:33
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Just give this guy the bullet and send his family to mandatory therapy so that nothing ever crops up from that bed of weeds again.
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Feb 12, 2018 12:40
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ChairMaster posted:A better answer is who cares? Once he's not free to hurt people anymore it really doesn't matter to me what happens to him, he can live in comfortable Anders Behring Brevik Norway prison or he can live in privatized American torture prison, it doesn't really matter on the personal level. Just the former is better for society. "Why should we care about what happens to prisoners?" says member of society that routinely imprisons people incorrectly.
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Feb 12, 2018 13:46
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I don't think that anyone here is calling for proscribed, codified and 'normalized' rape for this man. They're just putting it out there that pedos generally don't have the best reputation amongst our prison populace and that they would find a sort of karmic gratification for this man to have to wear a medically necessary butt-plug for the rest of his days. And if some patriotic citizen who also happens to be incarcerated were to begin punishing this man's colon with an uncircumcised, porn star-sized cock, all the better. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 12, 2018 15:14
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SpeakSlow posted:I don't think that anyone here is calling for proscribed, codified and 'normalized' rape for this man. “They’re not calling for rape, they just would like it to happen”
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Feb 12, 2018 15:16
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SpeakSlow posted:I don't think that anyone here is calling for proscribed, codified and 'normalized' rape for this man. This is really hosed up on a variety of levels, friend.
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Feb 12, 2018 15:17
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SpeakSlow posted:I don't think that anyone here is calling for proscribed, codified and 'normalized' rape for this man. "hey let me just kramer into the sexual abuse thread and ruminate about how it would be awesome if this person got violently raped" gently caress off you piece of poo poo
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Feb 12, 2018 15:17
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SpeakSlow posted:I don't think that anyone here is calling for proscribed, codified and 'normalized' rape for this man. I mean, even I have to suggest that there isn't really a difference between those two positions and that's why they aren't mine.
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Feb 12, 2018 15:17
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botany posted:
This is a point that is absolutely true in the abstract but false in the practicality. In the abstract, the justice system should not be punitive at all, but purely rehabilitative; the only thing society gains by seeing a criminal punished rather than rehabilitated is the joy of vicarious vengeance. Norway and Sweden and the scandinavian nations have much more rehabilitative systems and those systems get much better results overall at far lower cost. In practice though that vicarious vengeance is socially necessary. If we somehow rewired Nassars' brain to ensure he would never offend again, and then released him out in the world to practice medicine again, society would gain a doctor, but his victims would have no sense of justice, and their families wouldn't either, and that dad who tried to jump Nassar in the courtroom and the hundred other dads would all eventually find Nassar and probably kill him. And in reality we can't re-wire Nassar's brain, and we can't undo the harm he did to his victims; all we can do is give them a sense of judicial vengeance.
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Feb 12, 2018 15:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This is a point that is absolutely true in the abstract but false in the practicality. In the abstract, the justice system should not be punitive at all, but purely rehabilitative; the only thing society gains by seeing a criminal punished rather than rehabilitated is the joy of vicarious vengeance. Norway and Sweden and the scandinavian nations have much more rehabilitative systems and those systems get much better results overall at far lower cost. I agree with this. Justice should be the first recourse and is very achievable in probably the majority of cases, but when you simply can't even begin to approach it in a crime of this magnitude, denying people even vengeance seems pointless and arguably impossible.
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Feb 12, 2018 15:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This is a point that is absolutely true in the abstract but false in the practicality. In the abstract, the justice system should not be punitive at all, but purely rehabilitative; the only thing society gains by seeing a criminal punished rather than rehabilitated is the joy of vicarious vengeance. Norway and Sweden and the scandinavian nations have much more rehabilitative systems and those systems get much better results overall at far lower cost. quote:In practice though that vicarious vengeance is socially necessary. If we somehow rewired Nassars' brain to ensure he would never offend again, and then released him out in the world to practice medicine again, society would gain a doctor, but his victims would have no sense of justice, and their families wouldn't either, and that dad who tried to jump Nassar in the courtroom and the hundred other dads would all eventually find Nassar and probably kill him. And in reality we can't re-wire Nassar's brain, and we can't undo the harm he did to his victims; all we can do is give them a sense of judicial vengeance. nobody is talking about rewiring his brain. even if we rehabilitate him, that doesn't mean he gets to work as a doctor. also you're jumping from "we can't rewire his brain" to "all we can to is give the victims a sense of judicial vengeance", as if the only options were brain-washing or retributive punishment. you realize that the societies you mentioned have and can cope with individuals that cannot be rehabilitated, yes? and their system isn't made retributive by that. if you can rehabilitate a felon through therapy etc., you should. those that remain dangerous to society even with those efforts are kept away from society in some way, either through imprisonment or through mandatory check-ins, monitoring and such. lastly, "if we freed a felon they would only be hunted down" is not an argument for punishing that felon. there are a lot of murderers that can be completely rehabilitated, despite their victims' relatives who might wish to kill them in revenge.
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Feb 12, 2018 15:55
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I know it's idealistic pie in the sky belief, but I really do believe any prisoner can be rehabilitated. Even the murderers and rapists. Some will take longer than others, obviously. Even "rehabilitated" doesn't necessarily mean put back into a society but more a place where their lives aren't pure poo poo, like a guarded apartment housing. I know everyone laughs at Anders Breivik for demanding better video games in prison, but in the U.S. system, the best someone is probably going to get is a Christian romance novel.
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Feb 12, 2018 16:05
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seiferguy posted:I know it's idealistic pie in the sky belief, but I really do believe any prisoner can be rehabilitated. Even the murderers and rapists. Some will take longer than others, obviously. Even "rehabilitated" doesn't necessarily mean put back into a society but more a place where their lives aren't pure poo poo, like a guarded apartment housing. I know everyone laughs at Anders Breivik for demanding better video games in prison, but in the U.S. system, the best someone is probably going to get is a Christian romance novel. And in many cases that serves a good purpose, it means the person might be able to partly repay the debt they owe to the people they wronged, or it might mean that they are less likely to commit the same offense again after they have been released. They might not even be bad people, their crime might be a result primarily of circumstance and lack of opportunity, or they might have been wrongfully convicted in the first place. There are huge practical arguments for the value of rehabilitation that make it by far the most sensible basis for a corrections system. But none of that seems applicable in this case, who or what does it serve to rehabilitate this man, even if it were possible? Weighed against the service his simple punishment might perform to his hundreds of victims, if they wanted it?
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Feb 12, 2018 16:19
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The US system is designed with prisoners as clients and you want clients back. Rehabilitation of inmates is the last thing anyone in charge of the prison system wants. It's incredibly hosed up and bad for society in general. The fact that prison rape has been normalized to the point where it has become a punch line is incredibly hosed up.
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Feb 12, 2018 16:22
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botany posted:nobody is talking about rewiring his brain. even if we rehabilitate him, that doesn't mean he gets to work as a doctor. also you're jumping from "we can't rewire his brain" to "all we can to is give the victims a sense of judicial vengeance", as if the only options were brain-washing or retributive punishment. It is an argument for punishing that felon, though? One of the primary purposes of retributive "justice" is to prevent vigilantism. It's a very large part of why the American "justice system" -- and I use that term only in its loosest sense -- punishes; without that visible punishment, there are a lot of Americans who would take matters into their own hands. Look, in the abstract I agree with you: the Scandinavian systems are better, and I would like to see a more strongly rehabilitative and less punitive system put in place in America. But American society is a lot more spiteful and angry and vindictive than Scandinavian society is, and we're going to need some minimum degree of punishment within our system for the foreseeable future, if only to satisfy victims and prevent vigilantism.
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Feb 12, 2018 16:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It is an argument for punishing that felon, though? One of the primary purposes of retributive "justice" is to prevent vigilantism. It's a very large part of why the American "justice system" -- and I use that term only in its loosest sense -- punishes; without that visible punishment, there are a lot of Americans who would take matters into their own hands. there is no correlation between capital punishment and violent crime rates. vigilante killings would show up in the violent crime rates. thus there is no correlation between capital punishment and vigilantism. if you're suggesting that capital punishment and retributive justice are different enough for one to correlate with vigilantism but not the other, show your reasoning or sources.
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Feb 12, 2018 16:49
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botany posted:there is no correlation between capital punishment and violent crime rates. From everything I've read on the subject at least -- and I'm no criminologist -- the evidence is quite clear that "capital punishment" as such is basically indistinguishable from a ten-year prison sentence in terms of deterrence. From what I've read there is support for sentences of up to ten years having increased deterrent effect, it's just that once you're past the ten-year mark it's all a washout and equivalent and you don't get any additional increases in deterrent effect for increases in punishment. Focusing on capital punishment in this particular debate is like focusing on the minimum wage when it's set below the market wage; of course it doesn't have an effect, it's not set at a threshold where its effect is felt. Similarly, of course you aren't going to see any correlation of the death penalty with anything; it's a gratuitous excess under any rational metric. When I'm talking about deterring vigilantism and so forth, I'm pointing out that there's a minimum level of punishment that is necessary to make victims feel that justice has been served and to prevent vigilante reprisals. We know this because we've seen vigilante reprisals both attempted and suggested (in this thread even!). The death penalty is a gratuitously excessive maximum punishment; it's the opposite end of the scale from what I'm talking about. Even short of the death penalty, America's criminal penalties are, generally speaking, pretty excessive for almost everything; we could reduce most of them drastically and still retain whatever deterrent effect exists. Your argument also seems to equate "death penalty" with "deterrence," and that doesn't hold, because we can see deterrent effects at much lower criminal penalties. For example, with the removal of criminal penalties for the use of marijuana in select American states, use of marijuana in those states has risen (though admittedly there's a lot of debate as to how and why and which demographics and causation there). A converse example might be the recent widespread institution of smoking bans in public buildings. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 16:59
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i think we're completely talking past each other but we're also derailing a thread that's pretty important right now. i have no idea if there's a more appropriate thread for this discussion, but if there is i'd like to take it elsewhere.
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Feb 12, 2018 17:35
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botany posted:i think we're completely talking past each other but we're also derailing a thread that's pretty important right now. i have no idea if there's a more appropriate thread for this discussion, but if there is i'd like to take it elsewhere. Yeah, but since you two aren't advocating for (or merely happy to ignore) the literal rape of those we incarcerate, you are only pulling the conversation upward.
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Feb 12, 2018 19:33
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tetrapyloctomy posted:Yeah, but since you two aren't advocating for (or merely happy to ignore) the literal rape of those we incarcerate, you are only pulling the conversation upward. Not even a little rape for a rapist who predated on children, unabashedly and for decades? Ok, fine. Huh. So are we prosecuting the people who abetted this fucker yet? Or are we just settling with fines and wrist-slaps for that?
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Feb 12, 2018 20:39
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OwlFancier posted:But none of that seems applicable in this case, who or what does it serve to rehabilitate this man, even if it were possible? Weighed against the service his simple punishment might perform to his hundreds of victims, if they wanted it? Again, thinking big picture: should we decide who we can rehabilitate or not? I think it's better to say "let's try to rehabilitate everyone" as opposed to "let's pick and choose who gets to be rehabilitated or not." Rehabilitating Nassar doesn't necessarily mean he's freed and reintroduced into society. He will stay locked away for the rest of his life in some form or another.
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Feb 12, 2018 21:25
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SpeakSlow posted:Not even a little rape for a rapist who predated on children, unabashedly and for decades? Ok, fine. rape is bad, and rape jokes aren’t cool
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Feb 12, 2018 22:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It is an argument for punishing that felon, though? One of the primary purposes of retributive "justice" is to prevent vigilantism. It's a very large part of why the American "justice system" -- and I use that term only in its loosest sense -- punishes; without that visible punishment, there are a lot of Americans who would take matters into their own hands. I hadn't thought about it this way. My only reason to be not immediately dismissive of non-rehabilitation greater-than-deterrence (as you discuss downpage) punishment was the potential value of just segregating the unrehabilitatable segments from society. But apparently there's a genuinely Ugh.
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Feb 12, 2018 22:46
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I would think any justice system worth its salt would see Nassar at some point comprehending something of the magnitude of the pain he's inflicted so that living in society like a person would be an anathema.
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Feb 13, 2018 01:29
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I think there can be an addition to the list of organizations to burn down: https://deadspin.com/aau-removes-volleyball-coach-rick-butler-following-year-1822940996 quote:Butler had been accused of having sexual contact with five underage girls, dating back to the 1980s. Two of the accusations were made public in an investigative report by the Chicago Sun-Times that was published in November of last year. Two months after the report was published, Butler was banned permanently by USA Volleyball. He was first banned for life by the sport’s governing body in 1995 for having sexual contact with underage girls, but USA Volleyball partially lifted that ban in 2000, allowing him to return to coaching, but stipulating he could not coach junior teams.
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Feb 13, 2018 04:02
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fishing with the fam posted:From the minute they first put on a helmet in peewee football to when they take if off after high school graduation players have it beaten into their heads that football is what matters by their coaches, parents, and peers. Especially in some smaller rural communities, high school football is insanely important to a lot of people. When you are entrenched in that mindset for a majority of your life, it doesn't shock me at all that football is the primary driving force for college choice, regardless of pro prospects. It's probably been mentioned earlier already, but football is a huge mechanism for identity-building and being the nexus of the local community (especially in more rural small towns) in America. Football likewise plays a huge role in college student identities and togetherness as well. It's a big motivator for school pride which is more emotionally motivating than things like career prospects for people. E: GobiasIndustries posted:Like, everyone knows Betsy DeVos is a piece of poo poo who hates public education but at K-12 level the amount of harm she could inflict was relatively minimal because states rights and whatnot. Her rolling back Title IX protections combined with this incident is a 'textbook' example of the amount of damage someone in her position could cause due to indifference and negligence. In DeVos's case, I think it's more 'active malice and intent to destroy'. E2: https://twitter.com/BoltsandNoles/status/959436344341778432?s=20 Pretty much how I feel too. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 05:15
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https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/969623445435830274
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Mar 2, 2018 18:22
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Oh boy, it's getting worse Not only did everyone in the administration know, they also participated, apparently https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/978687431812833281
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Mar 27, 2018 18:38
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... jesus.
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Mar 28, 2018 02:46
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How would you not delete that? Maybe he did try to wipe everything, but he had so many he just missed one. Now we can hope he'll roll over on everyone else in the administration. God I hope so. Too many sexual monsters in the world. Just found out about that actress from Smallville selling women as sex slaves and literally loving branding them with a hot iron.
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Mar 28, 2018 04:49
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SKULL.GIF posted:Oh boy, it's getting worse He's hosed. Also, if he shared that with anyone, he is looking at some pretty serious jail time. Gorilla Salad posted:
Wait WHAT?
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Mar 28, 2018 05:08
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Lote posted:Wait WHAT? https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/is-nxivm-a-cult-what-we-know-w512261
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