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Sky Shadowing posted:I'm going to side with Valenti here and point out that there is a burden of proof when you go at people that so far the article doesn't quite meet. The Payne and Appling story went all the way to the Ingham County Prosecutor, who not only said there was not enough to press charges, but that there was no crime. Dantonio dropped his nuts on the table for ESPN to smash with the hammer of proof, believing they don't have anything concrete. Dunning, the prosecutor at the time (not his assistant who was the woman hired at MSU) allegedly had a reputation for going after MSU athletes. Appling and Payne was investigated by the MSUPD, which is not a university-run police department. In addition the feds and the state already investigated MSU's Title IX investigation of Appling and Payne and concluded MSU was slow to investigate but the investigation was properly done. Theyre guilty by virtue of participating in a culture of looking the other way. It doesn't matter if they themselves committed a crime, the university and athletic leadership as a whole are guilty of at best willful ignorance and at worst deliberately enabling rapists.
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Jan 30, 2018 03:16
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He's right. Punching people because they wronged you is just another facet of the toxic male behavior that enables an athletic department to prioritize sporting success over busting a rapist. It's still a male trying to feel powerful by taking someone else's well being into his own hands.
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Feb 3, 2018 19:16
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AsInHowe posted:This is the dumbest derail ever. It's directly relevant. Sorry it stresses you out that people are discussing toxic power behavior in a thread about a crime enabled by toxic power behavior.
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Feb 3, 2018 21:33
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AsInHowe posted:You're blaming victims and secondary victims for their reactions to the person who harmed them, you idiot. No, we're saying that angry dad is performing behavior that probably made his daughter's trauma worse because he thought it would make him feel better. You're just too deep into your hosed up patriarchal thought structure to understand how your dad having a violent outburst might make you feel worse and not better. And I'm not calling you names so why don't you knock that poo poo off.
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Feb 3, 2018 21:49
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If you have a rebuttal, post it instead of grandstanding and slinging insults. You don't get to shut down discussion just because it's threatening to your worldview.
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Feb 3, 2018 22:55
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howe_sam posted:I was talking to a guy with ND ties just this weekend and he mentioned how the whole university is hoping nobody notices the ties Swarbrick has to USA Gymnastics and Nasser. Glad to see other institutions have learned nothing from this. Burn college athletics to the ground.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:57
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elentar posted:Hey guess who’s going to foot the bill on all this Hey, remember what I said before about it being institutions and not individuals that make this level of harm possible? Literally institutionally transferring the consequences of mass rape onto the most vulnerable. Burn your institutions.
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Mar 28, 2018 02:21
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General Dog posted:If we could just tear down our institutions and start over, I'm sure things would work out differently the next time around. Whelp, better not fix anything ever then
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Mar 28, 2018 04:43
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AsInHowe posted:Better just let the pedophiles go, and let them reform in another group, with a different name Obviously when I said "burn your institutions" I meant "form a pedophile free state with no laws", excellent insight AsInHowe
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Mar 28, 2018 05:41
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DJExile posted:The tough thing is endowments aren't just liquid cash sitting in the bank. Also they're usually earmarked for specific stuff. It's one of the ways important alumni perpetuate sports programs that might otherwise come under scrutiny. They endow a stadium, or training facilities, and the school bends over backwards keeping the program going because maybe someday they alumnus or alumna will give to another program too. My lovely d3 school that didn't even have a wrestling program somehow kept a men's badminton team going for ages because of an earmarked endowment.
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Mar 28, 2018 06:29
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Honestly, I don't care if the actual teams are in the ncaa or not. The important thing is that anybody who was in a position of leadership during the time this was ongoing should be fired and never allowed to work at a college or with youth ever again. Burn out the culture of secrecy wholesale and start over. Girls doing gymnastics isn't the problem. Evil old fucks using gymnastics to rape girls is.
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Mar 28, 2018 18:48
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In general it would be horrible if we profiled people based on google searches, but boy is that horrifying looking at it retrospectively.
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Apr 3, 2018 18:43
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DJExile posted:Yeah in a situation like MSU's you basically have to find someone dumb/crazy enough to take the reigns for the time being. You don't want to be the president trying to guide a school through times like these, you want to be the one who follows that president once things have calmed down. This in and of itself is so hosed up. Those in power don't view it as rewarding work to put to a stop a horrifying culture of rape and secrecy.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:10
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DJExile posted:Universities like Michigan State have gobs of bureaucracy and coming in as interim president in that situation isn't as easy as " just fire everyone and fix it". Even if Engler wasn't a massive scumbag, his job would basically be to take a torch to anyone connected to it, and pay the lawyers to make sure everything's done in a way that avoids wrongful termination lawsuits in case you can't fully prove someone can be fired for-cause. Meanwhile, anyone among the higher-ups you want to get rid of, odds are you're either paying the money to fight their buyout, or paying their buyout. Meanwhile, if (when) those suits come, now you're paying the lawyers again to defend against the suits. Donations meanwhile are understandably cratering, and your school PR has taken a massive hit so you're probably not going to get as many new students coming in. Meanwhile, you're (rightfully) getting pressure from the current students not to raise tuition to cover those costs, and doing what you can to sell the image (real, or otherwise) that things have actually improved and it's totally safe to send your kids here. I understand this, and that's why I find it sad. It's a difficult, painful, thankless job and nobody wants to create an environment that incentivizes doing it. Instead they put an idiot in charge, wait for tensions to settle, then kinda hope all the monsters accept cushy retirement packages a couple years up the road. Nobody comes out with any kind of proper punishment or mark that would keep them away from potential victims in the future. I don't think it's an accident things are set up this way either, but I know that's a more controversial statement to some.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:39
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DJExile posted:Abetting prison rape and assault isn't helping anything. Yarp. This guy is the result of one institution failing in its obligations. The prison system also failing in its obligations doesn't make it better. It just continues the story.
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Jul 26, 2018 23:37
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iospace posted:And what does that accomplish? A symbolic gesture that gives the university the ability to axe gymnastics wholly and not bring it back? it accomplishes making other programs scared enough to clean house lest they also get banned from participating in the sport. young gymnasts will get scholarships elsewhere and Michigan State will lose the prestige of having a gymnastics program because they have proven themselves unable to care for the kids in their ward. it's an athletic program, ultimately it hurts nobody but the people who looked the other way for it to be killed.
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Aug 30, 2018 17:39
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DJExile posted:
but it also takes jobs away from people who turned a blind eye to child abuse. this is the first and only point of axing the program. to put fear into people who would ignore abuse to save their jobs.
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Aug 30, 2018 17:48
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jit bull transpile posted:but it also takes jobs away from people who turned a blind eye to child abuse. this is the first and only point of axing the program. to put fear into people who would ignore abuse to save their jobs. like, my mind is seriously boggled by the argument that it's too extreme a move to fire all the people who ignored or gave shelter to a child molestor.
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Aug 30, 2018 17:50
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iospace posted:The last time the NCAA dealt with this we got Penn State. punishing the pedo enablers went bad one time, better not try to punish anyone ever again. i get that some of you followed penn state very closely and it instills a level of despair to see a bunch of hicks rally around a lovely pedophile, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying to punish those who harm children.
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Aug 30, 2018 17:54
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iospace posted:And this is where I'm going to agree to disagree. I don't agree with axing it wholesale, but if the death penalty were to be handed it down, I would want it to be maybe a year moratorium and then restarted (any longer and you're looking at Title IX suits). The year "off" would be used to find new staff. Obviously free transfer with the scholarship transferring (in effect, MSU would pay for them to go elsewhere), and those who decide to stay do not lose any years of eligibility. I can't help but feel like you've been moving the goalposts quite a bit, but let respond like this: if you restart a program after only a year, how do you ensure that the wider university culture that has allowed the bad program to fester has been addressed? Many of the people at the edges (deans, athletic dept chairs outside of the specific sport, campus police, etc) are still going to be there. I believe this would lead to a "wait it out" attitude where the university has no need to actually seriously examine itself and correct its culture before rebuilding a program. i would rather that a program restoration post-death-penalty have a clearly defined set of steps that the university must complete to regain approval. a non-comprehensive list of things I can think of that might be a good start are:
There's probably more stuff you could think of easily. Honestly my posts itt to this point have been pretty flippant because I thought it would just be self-evident to people that a program that systematically enables the assembly line-like rape of its students needs to be pulled up by the roots but I guess I have a bad habit of assuming people fill in the blanks the same way I do. I don't think a university should be banned from doing a sport for 10,000 years or whatever. But I do think that they should have to prove they've made an ironclad best effort to make it a "never ever again" situation. If a school is a repeat offender after going through this process though? Burn that poo poo down for real.
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Sep 1, 2018 07:10
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AsInHowe posted:What also isn't covered is that this happened so long ago technologically, Nassar had to grab a friend to be the cameraman for the assault. OK let's just end humanity
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Sep 13, 2018 04:18
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Henchman of Santa posted:To circle back to a point made in the early stages of the D&D version of this thread, it’s more like a problem with powerful institutions in general agree but the inevitable refrain in response has been "well what's your 100 point plan to fix all powerful institutions everywhere ms. know-it-all" it's more than just MSU (as has been noted), since law enforcement from top to bottom views reporters of sexual assault with a great deal of suspicion (nearly the opposite of how they deal with all other types of crime). there's a lot that needs fixing and frankly at this point I'm tempted to say something like "just make a separate civilian run police for for investigating sex crimes" because I don't know how the gently caress you fix the police or FBI.
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Sep 14, 2018 00:29
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AsInHowe posted:Alternatively, don't let universities run their own police departments designed around protecting the school from embarrassment. Agree. I meant like an actual elected group to investigate all sex crimes in a city or state, not just universities. Police not taking allegations seriously is a way more universal issue than just colleges.
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Sep 14, 2018 07:21
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So this ends with melania trump running usa gymnastics somehow right?
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Oct 17, 2018 04:41
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Drunk Canuck posted:Ah. Anarchosyndicalism would be better at this point honestly. These people don't respect anything beyond sources of power greater than theirs and I'm completely at a loss for any practical system of governance that can control for that so it's time for pie in the sky poo poo like athletes forming dros to protect them from corrupt governing bodies. I'm only 70% joking.
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Dec 12, 2018 08:39
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