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Kanine posted:pro-guns as praxis for revolution against white supremacy/capitalism yeah. Yeah, it should just be kept in mind that "by any means necessary" famously said by Malcolm X is not the same as "by any means sufficient" and he knew that when he said it. But ya know, I definitely get where you're coming from. People who knowingly use power for oppression shouldn't be expected to give that power up or stop their oppressive actions just because you ask them to. These are the situations where peace-oriented idealism breaks down as you're confronted with reality and you either accept that aggressors exist and adapt to that or learn to be ignorant. I would still say that I don't think the term "pro-gun" carries the depth of meaning that your viewpoint deserves, but it probably draws more support from people who would otherwise just say it's not their fight.
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Feb 9, 2018 06:11
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signalnoise posted:Yeah, it should just be kept in mind that "by any means necessary" famously said by Malcolm X is not the same as "by any means sufficient" and he knew that when he said it. But ya know, I definitely get where you're coming from. People who knowingly use power for oppression shouldn't be expected to give that power up or stop their oppressive actions just because you ask them to. These are the situations where peace-oriented idealism breaks down as you're confronted with reality and you either accept that aggressors exist and adapt to that or learn to be ignorant. I would still say that I don't think the term "pro-gun" carries the depth of meaning that your viewpoint deserves, but it probably draws more support from people who would otherwise just say it's not their fight.  
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Feb 9, 2018 06:15
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Kanine posted:good loving luck lmao Better chance of success than embracing a pointless genocidal war of attrition. Arming minorities alone does not counter institutionalized white privilege, and has greater precedent of success in blunting the instruments of institutional oppression and death than expecting entrenched privilege to simply embrace the equality and free exercise of equal rights of underprivileged groups when it holds monopoly on state enabled violence that is virtually free of judicial and legislative accountability. Minorities with firearms are still extrajudicially executed in the US routinely denied equal access to legal protection of self-defense no matter how hard they exercise their 2nd amendment rights.
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Feb 9, 2018 06:30
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What aspects of GUN are Americans violently passionate about?
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Feb 9, 2018 06:33
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stone cold posted:What aspects of GUN are Americans violently passionate about? making it legal to murder black children on the suspicion they might theoretically have one
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Feb 9, 2018 06:35
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archangelwar posted:Better chance of success than embracing a pointless genocidal war of attrition. Arming minorities alone does not counter institutionalized white privilege, and has greater precedent of success in blunting the instruments of institutional oppression and death than expecting entrenched privilege to simply embrace the equality and free exercise of equal rights of underprivileged groups when it holds monopoly on state enabled violence that is virtually free of judicial and legislative accountability. Minorities with firearms are still extrajudicially executed in the US routinely denied equal access to legal protection of self-defense no matter how hard they exercise their 2nd amendment rights. american whites will literally never accept disarmament lmao
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Feb 9, 2018 06:43
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http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/quote:Gun ownership varies considerably across demographic groups. For example, about four-in-ten men (39%) say they personally own a gun, compared with 22% of women. And while 36% of whites report that they are gun owners, about a quarter of blacks (24%) and 15% of Hispanics say they own a gun. you cannot meaningfully reduce the number of white people having guns without having them institute full on loving fascism in reaction to that attempt.
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Feb 9, 2018 06:50
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Shut the gently caress up about guns
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Feb 9, 2018 08:28
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GalacticAcid posted:Pointing out that historically, America sucks, and is bad. A bit OT, but reading this, the question that popped into my mind was, "are there any nations that, factoring in size and actual ability, don't fit this description?" I mean if every country is lovely and the only countries that are less lovely are only so because they lacked the resources and power to be shittier, then that is at least important context.
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Feb 9, 2018 10:08
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Jaxyon posted:Talk about how absurd the modern conservative NRA interpretation of the 2nd amendment. Eh. Even a lot of the gun-havers hate the NRA for being dogwhistle race-baiters profiting off of old scared white men and having a history of throwing sport shooters under the bus. That said, it's not the NRA's interpretation of the 2nd that matters, it's the SCOTUS. signalnoise posted:I have made the argument that if we are going to use military equipment to pursue criminals, it should be done by the military, with military training. The response I get every time is "but that's not how our government works" and that's really the response I get for many many arguments, and I'm like yo maybe the way the government works isn't the best way it could work Arguing that the Posse Comitatus Act should never have been made a law, and that the Reconstrution would have been more successful in stamping out slaverholder views in the South if the feds could have continued to use the Army to do the policing is a thing that would piss people on both sides of the Mason/Dixon off while likely being factually true. The conservative states' rights crowd for obvious reasons, and the liberal reservations against using the army as an occupying force inside our borders. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 10:43
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Kanine posted:american whites will literally never accept disarmament lmao Agreed, we live at the end of history and no further changes to culture are plausible. All events in history were but to propel us to this singularly inevitable time.
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Feb 9, 2018 12:10
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Probably the imperial nature of America's postwar role in the world, liberals are even more deeply committed to that role than conservatives
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Feb 9, 2018 12:43
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icantfindaname posted:Probably the imperial nature of America's postwar role in the world, liberals are even more deeply committed to that role than conservatives Could you expand on this? Especially the second part—I’ve never heard that before.
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Feb 9, 2018 13:38
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stone cold posted:What aspects of GUN are Americans violently passionate about? Pretty much all aspects, except that video game called GUN.
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Feb 9, 2018 14:45
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Shut the gently caress up about guns (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 9, 2018 18:52
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silence_kit posted:Could you expand on this? Especially the second part—I’ve never heard that before. There's an isolationist streak to mainstream conservatism, especially the libertarian flavors, that is against foreign intervention when there isn't a credible (in their mind at least) threat to the US in addition to a general desire to GTFO of the UN.
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Feb 9, 2018 19:09
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silence_kit posted:Could you expand on this? Especially the second part—I’ve never heard that before. Obama is the prince of drones
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Feb 9, 2018 19:24
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Tricky D posted:There's an isolationist streak to mainstream conservatism, especially the libertarian flavors, that is against foreign intervention when there isn't a credible (in their mind at least) threat to the US I don’t think that this is a popular belief among Republicans. Certainly I agree that it is a popular libertarian belief. But libertarians don’t really matter and their views are not that popular. Tricky D posted:in addition to a general desire to GTFO of the UN. I agree that this is a common Republican belief but that isn’t the same thing as being anti-interventionist. It could be a pro-unilateral interventionist belief. Peven Stan posted:Obama is the prince of drones I wouldn’t attribute Obama’s drone strikes to his liberal nature/opinions. I think it is just something that modern US Presidents do now, both Republican & Democratic. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 20:05
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Maybe Republicans just pretend to be non-interventionist when convenient (see Libya).
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Feb 9, 2018 20:20
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silence_kit posted:I don’t think that this is a popular belief among Republicans. Certainly I agree that it is a popular libertarian belief. But libertarians don’t really matter and their views are not that popular. scratch a libertarian and a fascist bleeds
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Feb 9, 2018 20:25
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Pointing out that the US stole California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Utah from Mexico. Or pointing out the forced deportation of between half a million and two million Mexican-Americans, over half of which were born in the US and were US citizens, in the 1930's. Or pointing out the Eugenics obsession that a lot of states and the federal government had at the turn of the century. Or pointing out that Hitler's Nuremberg laws were based off of the south's Jim Crow laws.
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Feb 9, 2018 22:20
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Captain Oblivious posted:Agreed, we live at the end of history and no further changes to culture are plausible. All events in history were but to propel us to this singularly inevitable time. yeah because pointing out the truth that white americans as a bloc are reactionary and will never willingly relinquish their firearms as saying all future changes to culture are impossible. like yes i'd fuckin love to take as many guns as i could out of the hands of fascists but that's literally impossible and all you can do is try to help the communities they target to defend themselves.
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Feb 9, 2018 23:05
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silence_kit posted:Could you expand on this? Especially the second part—I’ve never heard that before. America's postwar empire and anticommunism were all driven by liberal democrats, the Republican party was lukewarm on it until Reagan comes along at least. FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, all of these people were Democrats. McCarthyism did have a strong base in nativist Republican conservatism but it was tacitly supported and used by centrist Democrats like Truman to essentially cripple and purge the left wing of the party that was opposed to the Cold War. Part of what created neoconservatism and Reaganism was that the Cold Warriors were fed up with the left's influence within the Democratic Party after the 1960s and 70s and bolted to the Republicans. Then after Democrats come back to power under Clinton, the centrist liberal imperialism reasserts itself and the left are branded hopelessly antiquated Regressive Left dictator-lovers for opposing wars in the middle east. The stuff about Hillary Clinton supporting the Iraq War etc is not just some historical accident, it's baked really deep into the foundations of Democratic Party liberalism Here's a nice book on liberals and the FBI under J Edgar Hoover in the early Cold War era https://press.princeton.edu/titles/4318.html quote:In the super-heated anticommunist politics of the early Cold War period, American liberals turned to the FBI. With the Communist party to the left of them and McCarthyism to the right, liberal leaders saw the Bureau as the only legitimate instrument to define and protect the internal security interests of the state. McCarthyism provided ample proof of the dangers of security by congressional investigation. In response, liberals delegated extensive powers to J. Edgar Hoover--creating a domestic intelligence capacity that circumvented constitutional and legal controls. This balanced account of the link between liberal leaders in the United States and the growth of the FBI will appeal to a broad audience of readers interested in the American political climate. William Keller identifies a tension between liberalism and the security of the state that can never be fully resolved, and analyzes the exact mechanisms through which liberals and liberal government came to tolerate and even venerate an authoritarian state presence in their midst. silence_kit posted:I don’t think that this is a popular belief among Republicans. Certainly I agree that it is a popular libertarian belief. But libertarians don’t really matter and their views are not that popular. I agree libertarians don't matter, but Trump's successful campaign both in the primary and the general election says there's a big audiencefor isolationism in the GOP, or at least an interventionism that's limited and not general and overarching ala institutions like NATO or the TPP And historically speaking, like I said, neoconservative interventionism wasn't really a thing until the 1980s, before that the Republicans were actually more isolationist than Democrats, and what you're seeing now is IMO simply a return to the historical status quo icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Feb 10, 2018 |
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Feb 10, 2018 02:37
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The US and UK were equally at fault for the War of 1812, which was a dumbass slapfight between two genocidal states. The canadians did near-nothing in the War of 1812, which was fought by british regulars from Europe. The burning of Washington was in retaliation for the far more tactically-relevant burning of York, Upper Canada, and achieved nothing substantial. US aid saved countless russian lives and helped bring a swifter end to the Eastern Front. Preventing soviet occupation of european countries was a justified war goal, and being liberated by the western allies in Europe was infinitely superior to being liberated by the soviets. Compare France and Hungary's attempts go their own way and note that there were no Pattons rolling through Paris enforcing an american puppet government. Also consider that the western allies never decided that the best course of action was to actively invade any countries alongside Nazi Germany and never asked Hitler for the go ahead to annex minor powers. The allies also didn't rape their way across the Rhineland or execute liberated PoWs for the crime of surrendering. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Feb 10, 2018 |
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Feb 10, 2018 20:01
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Preventing soviet occupation of european countries was a justified war goal, and being liberated by the western allies in Europe was infinitely superior to being liberated by the soviets. Compare France and Hungary's attempts go their own way and note that there were no Pattons rolling through Paris enforcing an american puppet government.* *Offer only valid for fellow white imperialist colonialist countries; Middle Eastern, Asian and Latin American countries who wish to go their own way get napalmed and/or violently couped Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also consider that the western allies never decided that the best course of action was to actively invade any countries alongside Nazi Germany and never asked Hitler for the go ahead to annex minor powers. *puts """liberated""" East Asian countries right back in the clutches of colonial occupation, sometimes even keeping the same dictator the Japanese put there in power because hey he is already proven effective at murder and repression* VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Feb 10, 2018 |
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Feb 10, 2018 20:20
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Kanine posted:yeah because pointing out the truth that white americans as a bloc are reactionary and will never willingly relinquish their firearms as saying all future changes to culture are impossible. Human beings are reactionary af throughout all times and places in history. Things change regardless. I think it's probably best to keep trying to remove guns from the hands of basically everybody because arming to counter the murderous impulses of white supremacists is putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.
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Feb 10, 2018 23:29
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Captain Oblivious posted:Human beings are reactionary af throughout all times and places in history. white people are and always will be the most reactionary group of people as long as they maintain white supremacy. the law enforcement that will be in charge of taking away guns is comprised of white supremacists, they will not disarm their comrades. the history of the application of gun laws in the united states is one of disarming people of color and actively ignoring the accumulation of guns into the hands of whites.
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Feb 11, 2018 03:24
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oh another aspect of american history white americans are violently passionate about is claiming the black panthers were somehow as bad as the kkk
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Feb 11, 2018 03:29
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stone cold posted:What aspects of GUN are Americans violently passionate about? The Chaos Emeralds and why GUN arent the only ones who have them
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Feb 11, 2018 11:15
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VitalSigns posted:*Offer only valid for fellow white imperialist colonialist countries; Middle Eastern, Asian and Latin American countries who wish to go their own way get napalmed and/or violently couped See, you got pissy because I said a thing the US did was good. I didn’t say any of the bad poo poo it did at the same time was also good, or that it was outweighed by the good. Point made, pack it in leftailures
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Feb 11, 2018 21:03
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Just conveniently left it out of the narrative.
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Feb 11, 2018 21:07
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VitalSigns posted:Just conveniently left it out of the narrative. Yup, because it is a thing that riles up americans. Peace!
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Feb 11, 2018 21:12
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I mean yeah dishonesty tends to annoy people, good job?
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Feb 11, 2018 21:20
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VitalSigns posted:I mean yeah dishonesty tends to annoy people, good job? *edgar allen ho eats own feces* ha pack it in leftailures e: Rigged Death Trap posted:The Chaos Emeralds and why GUN arent the only ones who have them something something iblis trigger stone cold fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 21:44
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I dont think American white people are particularly bad. Pretty much every culture on earth is racist, sexist, etc.  Also guns are good. i dont even own guns but I kinda wanna. Anyway, a thing that pisses off Americans is pointing out that they didnt single-handedly defeat the Nazis. We played a huge part, but we didn't do it alone.
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Feb 12, 2018 00:58
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Blue Star posted:I dont think American white people are particularly bad. Pretty much every culture on earth is racist, sexist, etc. Yes, but most goons live in countries where white people and men are the ones who have the *leverage* to harm other people, even unintentionally, through their sexism/racism. If you're a Hutu living in Chicago it's not particularly relevant (on a societal scale) how racist you are because it's not like you have a bunch of Hutus in positions of power to deny people jobs or frame them for crimes. Whereas if you're a Hutu living in Rwanda, then your racism is *way* more significant. If white people disappeared globally tomorrow, some other ethnic or social faction would step up and be total dicks in their efforts to come out on top. And they already do that in plenty of countries where there aren't enough white people in power to fulfill the "primary rear end in a top hat" role. quote:Also guns are good. i dont even own guns but I kinda wanna. You totally should. Just drop into the TFR beginner thread and let them know generally what you want a gun for (or if it's just for kicks, what kind of gun you find appealing) and what your price range is. If you're in the US, depending on what state you live in there are cool rifles to be bought for under $100, and even with a budget of $250 or so you can get a decently cool handgun of some sort. Or if you have $450 or so, the go-to All-American option is to buy the parts and assemble an AR-15 rifle, which you can do with almost no tools and finish in about 20 minutes by watching a YouTube tutorial, and you save $100 or more if you assemble your own from parts.
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Feb 12, 2018 01:56
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:
Chinese people discovered East Africa before YT and came with bigger ships and more people, yet somehow never colonized.
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Feb 12, 2018 02:12
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Peven Stan posted:Chinese people discovered East Africa before YT and came with bigger ships and more people, yet somehow never colonized. You're arguing this is out of taking the moral high ground, as opposed to having other priorities and being really isolationist? The Han Chinese have also stomped on a shitload of ethnic groups that happened to be on territory they wanted to control, from Manchuria to Mongolia to Taiwan to Tibet, to Xinjang. And at least Americans have some vague sense of guilt causing them to make some token efforts to not be assholes in modern Africa. Whereas the Chinese are perfectly happy to cosy up to dictators, ignore human rights violations, and abuse their employees on mining and roadbuilding projects to the point it causes anti-Chinese riots. If China has the slightest introspective twinge of "man, we've been assholes before, we should at least put out some minimal effort to not do that", by all means present it. I'm all for blaming white people for benefiting from white people historically and currently being lovely, but it's not that a lack of melanin magically causes sociopathy. And it's not particularly enlightened to say "oh, we can forgive horrendous acts so long as it's a non-white person doing it".
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Feb 12, 2018 02:22
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:You're arguing this is out of taking the moral high ground, as opposed to having other priorities and being really isolationist? Sounds like the standard white guy trying to deflect from his own terrible history. A little thought experiment for you: Why is every country in the world a westphalian nation state and why do people globally wear white men's business suits? Historically speaking there have been several empires that could've engaged in european style colonialism and mass genocide, but didn't. Either out of sheer laziness or the fact that their ruling ideology value see sailing around the world and enslaving everyone they could see. It's a typical deflection utilized by dishonest white liberals, and ironically another instance of this thread living up to it's premise unintentionally.
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Feb 12, 2018 02:46
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Peven Stan posted:Sounds like the standard white guy trying to deflect from his own terrible history. Everyone sucks, dude. I dont know what to tell you. History is full of genocides and slavery. Geez, man.
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Feb 12, 2018 03:29
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