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The big problem with lesser evilism (other than the fact it typically is a failure outside of when the greater evil gets REALLY bad) is when the party starts to realize that its voters have internalized it and turn it into their self enriching strategy. You can see this when that group paid to go to that Obama dinner, sung a song about how his bad policies to him, then at the end admitted they had no choice but to vote for him. When the party's political calculus has turned to "how bad can we be where we are just better than our opponent?" that's a huge problem and we've been reaping the fruits of that logic since Clinton.
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Feb 14, 2018 14:32
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Samantha Bee liked to point out that Bernie Bros and Trumpists were getting their information from the same place (despite having wildly different ideologies) during the election.
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Feb 15, 2018 14:18
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Lesser evilism is also a reason the Democrats have such a disadvantage with our trash media. The media desperately paints a portrait where both sides aren't really that different and acting in mostly good faith. In that sort of environment trying to claim you HAVE To vote for the lesser evil or everything breaks down is incredibly difficult. It basically boils down to not wanting to take any hard stands that could lose you votes with "moderate" or conservative Democrats because they consider those to be their base. It's a way to guilt people that they don't actually want to represent to vote for them instead of actively try and get their support like they should. It's why after having to vote for the lesser evil there is little attempt to reign in the evil and instead start yelling at people that complain. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Feb 15, 2018 |
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Feb 15, 2018 14:41
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One thing that bugs the hell out of me are people that tell me I have to vote for the lesser of two evils and then claim the lesser evil is my ally and we all agree on 95% of the same stuff. It not only sounds ridiculous, but it shows a severe disconnect in what I consider important or even want out of government.
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Feb 15, 2018 15:21
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Cerebral Bore posted:Like, leaving political opinions aside, the real bad thing about lesser evilism is that it makes it nearly impossible to reform a failing party like the Dems because you get a core of true believers to whom even demanding some sort of accountability from the party leadership is going too far. It's obvious why they keep losing all the time, because failure is never punished. Yeah. The amount of losing from 2010 onward culminating with President Donald Trump the cretinous reality TV star beating the avatar of the modern Democratic party should have resulted in the non-elected leadership being gutted and primaries being the focus to get actually competent leaders in Congress. However they circled the wagons and pushed the idea that only these guys could resist Trump which has been tepid at absolute best and they have lost the messaging war against him consistently. The idea that any criticism is going to damage the brand is rooted in the idea you have to vote for them regardless because they are less bad. It's a really poisonous idea that even implies your side isn't good and worth voting for. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Feb 15, 2018 |
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Feb 15, 2018 15:59
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VitalSigns posted:If Republicans are successfully flanking Democrats from the left by pointing out Democrat corruption, bad Democratic policy (based on right-wing ideas), Democrats selling out, etc then maybe what the Democrats are doing is bad strategy and not actually pragmatic in the winning-elections sense? I think it was you who said that the big issue with Hillary's credibility is that while the majority of the bullshit flung at her was false, she was just shady enough and broke the rules in minor ways so that it was easier to paint her as bad by using those to imply larger corruption. Like when she's getting stupid questions early in the primary debates that ultimately didn't help her at all and was pretty pointless but it allowed the idea that the primary was rigged to gain traction. Republican messaging works best when there's a tiny grain of truth to it that they can then use in bad faith.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:41
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Brony Car posted:And then Donna Brazile, who shared the questions with her in the first place, goes and writes a cash-in book that just helps people double-down on that rigging narrative. The Democratic leadership is a hilarious mess and the idea that these people are politically savvy is a joke. As was said previously ideology totally aside they should all be replaced because they are clearly incompetent. The most neo-liberal centrist that ever said "we need bipartisan cooperation to solve this issue with both sides" should be yelling for new blood just on the idea that they lost to Donald Trump with a billion dollars.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:47
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VitalSigns posted:To bring this back around to the topic of the thread, turns out "yea our candidate is a cheater but you just have to take it because Republicans are bad" is a much much worse vote-getting argument than "our candidate is an honest moral person worth electing on their own merits". Yeah and we keeping seeing this failure except when the Republicans get REAL bad over and over but people think yelling into the void at Ralph Nader voters from 18 years ago is somehow going to result in anything. The next Presidential election is going to have people voting that were born AFTER Bush vs Gore but the threat of people not voting for the lesser evil hard enough is still seen as the primary reason Democrats lose.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:56
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Willa Rogers posted:Why don't you have a word with the fine Democratic senators who allowed drug and insurance lobbyists to literally write the bill that was ostensibly created to regulate them? And while you're at it, ask them why their focus-group-created talking point of the ACA being "the first step to single-payer" back in 2010 morphed into the trope that single-payer will never, ever happen. The rest of the post is good but this point here. This is literally what happened with the Dreamers. "Trust us we'll help you, even though we HAD the power to solve this whole problem a few years ago but didn't have the will to actually do it then but totally will in the future." Then Trump gets elected and it's months of "oh we will totally help you but now is not the right time give us a month" repeated three times and then suddenly the message is "look the Dreamers were totally always screwed and we had no hand in creating this situation and also the best we can do is to campaign on pictures of them being deported so anything more than that is amazing. But when we get back in to power we will absolutely for sure no lie help them." That was over the course of a few loving months and you can see posters in the Trump thread that were angry at people who correctly called out the shut down as a failure four weeks ago now saying exactly the opposite that there was never anything that could have been done. I will never ever believe a Democrat that comes at me with the promise of good things in the future but we need these small steps right now because he or she is totally lying. Their track record is very clear that what they are offering is what they absolutely are willing to bargain for. Lesser evilism is bad because just less evil enough to be technically "the lesser evil" is the goal of these people and aggressively stand in the way of anyone less evil than them getting a foothold. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 13:47
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I'm talking about 2010 when they had a majority in both houses in Congress and the presidency and enough votes to actually pass it if they went nuclear in the Senate but then lost the House a month before the Senate vote in December. Writing a bill in 2013 was never going to pass because the House was in Republican control and they will always use bullshit just like they stole a SCOTUS seat and there will always be an excuse. Getting past the filibuster isn't a magic card, it's the nuclear option and if the Democrats aren't willing to use it the Dreamers will never get amnesty outside of some poo poo deal like 12 year waiting time (during which there are many ways they can easily be hosed by bad actors).
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 14:51
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If the Democrats didn't know in 2010 let alone 2016 that the Republicans were full of poo poo, cheat, break the law, and don't bargain in good faith after what they pulled from 2000 starting with stealing an election via the SCOTUS to getting us into Iraq on lies to name a few, not to forget Reagan and Nixon in the more distant past, then they are not even someone we can count on as the lesser of two evils because they are absolutely not up to the task. The fact that even now they are still trying to craft bipartisan legislation like that trait is inherently a positive is not a mark in their favor as a competent opposition and voting based entirely on that.
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Feb 16, 2018 15:05
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It sure sucks that the purity tests from the center are always about supporting lovely stuff like sexual harassers, bad medical plans, or the drug war. The whole "purity test" stuff is just more projection.
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Feb 27, 2018 13:46
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Support specific people over ideology because it is seen as politically advantageous. I'm not sure if this is a gotcha about the correct definition of the term "purity" but it's pretty clear that right wing Democrats are using Al Frankin as a single issue in which to stop supporting a Democratic candidate which is what the left is accused of doing via obsession with purity on certain issues.
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Feb 27, 2018 14:44
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It honestly gets back to the problems of "less of two evil voting" and why it is poisonous. Calling out Frankin was the right thing to do not because it was advantageous and would get Republicans to expel their own sexual predators, but because it was hard and it was inherently moral to stand up for his victims. When you see everything as a "which is the least poo poo candidate I can support" decision you lose perspective that these people should be held to a standard and you can't say you support women and use that in messaging and then not support them when it might be bad for you. Even if you want to see this as a cold political calculus, people aren't going to respect the "less evil" party if they can't even get that part right and are as evil as their adversaries when it comes to a sexual harasser as long as he is useful. The long term benefits to being actually good are you build support from voters and then you do more good things instead of just hoping things are poo poo enough that you win by default. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Feb 27, 2018 |
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Feb 27, 2018 15:02
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I personally vote for the lesser of two evils as do many leftists I know, but the idea that asking the entire country to do that is dangerous and foolish and has mostly resulted in losses. Requiring that people must vote for the lesser of two evils has been internalized in a lot of people within the Democratic party which is what results in this sort of privileged attitude that their own members should not be held accountable because what option do the voters have? The issue people are trying to get at is that the philosophy doesn't build long term faith in the party and while may hold off certain election temporarily is a loser in the long run. Individually you can vote lesser evil all you like, but it's the party's responsibility to not be evil. Pressuring Franken to resign was a good thing to do and the people who are angry about it don't get that being consistent and principled is better than short term gains. People mostly aren't rejecting the idea of individuals voting based on game theory since many of us do it, it's the party itself that needs to actually win support from voters not just be the "not Republican" level they pull every four years. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Feb 27, 2018 |
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Feb 27, 2018 19:57
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a.p. dent posted:You can't browbeat them into voting, it's the Dems job to give them a reason to go to the polls. It's really this simple and the fact that so many people think it's the other way around, where the voters are responsible for electing politicians that promise little if anything and go on to not really give a poo poo about what the voters actually are interested in is so mindbogglingly dumb. It's literally "it's your fault when dad hits you because you didn't do what I said" and it's really gross.
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Feb 27, 2018 21:17
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Condiv posted:i'd also like to know why people should bother to vote the "lesser" evil when the DCCC is doing everything in their power at the moment to make sure that evil is the only choice come the GE? in what world is it not enabling the dems to grow more evil if I vote for dem candidates that would be comfortable in the republican party that the DCCC is trying to shove down our throats? how does voting for union busting corporate lawyers doing anything but helping the dems grow more evil? why should we reward the DCCC trying to act like kingmakers? This is actually a huge deal not only because it results in garbage Democrats like Manchin or that Virginian fucker with the Soviet Union flag yesterday, but also because the more public this gets (and it will get more public) the less the threat of lesser evilism works because people check out of the system that where the "less evil" ones are actively encouraging them to. People rag on the Republicans for being against democracy but the DCCC and DNC are very clearly putting their finger on the scale in a large way where supposedly left leaning people are told to vote their conscience and saying "well they are private organizations so it's legal  " when it comes out that things weren't fair isn't anymore likely to get people over it than "you should have voted for us so it's all your fault!"
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Feb 27, 2018 |
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Feb 27, 2018 21:26
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I watched eight years of Republicans making it so Obama couldn't do anything and now reading about Democrats are not only NOT filibustering new banking deregulations but the loving former VP candidate is helping them pass it. "Lesser evil" my rear end they are the good cop to the republican bad cop at this point. I remember getting screamed at a month ago because I was pissed the Democrats publicly abandoned Dreamers as I didn't have enough faith that Schumer had a plan and they totally were going to do something. If it wasn't for the courts the Dreamers would be getting deported tomorrow. There's always a reason the Democrats can't do anything good but they are always willing to sit on their hands or actively help the Republicans if there's money to be made. It makes you feel hopeless especially when their money backers are trying as hard as they can to make sure nothing changes. I'm pretty much in terror of them getting a blue wave and then squandering it by keeping all of Trump's stuff in place and replacing Ginsberg with Garland. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Mar 5, 2018 |
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Mar 5, 2018 14:09
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Also the "look this isn't great but I'll be right with you if they pull this again next month" talk that kept happening over and over each time the Democrats kicked the can down the road and lost just a little more of their bargaining power. It became clear there was no red line. The whole idea that the Dreamers were always screwed was very, very much not the talking point up until about a month ago when all the Democratic friendly pundits started pushing it when Schumer decided to give up and needed to look like he had this all figured out. Before that people that were saying how dangerous this game they were playing was and that there didn't seem to be a real plan were yelled at for being divisive and the real problem.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Mar 5, 2018 |
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Mar 5, 2018 21:18
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The only point of the filibuster is to give cover to bad politicians and it doesn't even do that as the voters clearly didn't buy that excuse during Obama's terms. If they actually want something they just ignore it since in reality it has no power outside of OPTICS. It's why the "we only had 59 Senators" was just a bad excuse since for some crazy reason the filibuster is apparently powerless to stop a tiny Republican majority. It's going to be super awkward in 2020 if the Democrats say they just don't have the votes to undo many of Trump's policies despite possibly having more Democratic senators than he had Republicans. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 15:24
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In terms of social stuff the Manchins of the party and in regards to economics the Mark Warners and Tim Kaines mean that even with 60 Senators they won't be able to pass anything "good." If the Democrats gently caress up and get 60 seats (their sweet spot is enough to be a majority but not enough where they have no excuse for doing nothing) then there is going to be some new "well they only had 58 non-Red State Democrats so you couldn't expect the President to do anything" bullshit instead of the lame excuse for the squandered 2008-2010 when they had a total majority but one seat means they couldn't do anything for real.
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Mar 6, 2018 16:37
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VitalSigns posted:Chuck Schumer despite being nominally against the deregulation bill said he's taking a "hands' off" approach and isn't going to whip his caucus at all to defeat it so we can be absolutely sure that this is indeed the case Stuff like this is why when Reconciliation hits with a Democratic Senate and House there is no way they are going to undo half of the stuff in the tax bill this year let alone put in anything good.
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Mar 6, 2018 18:49
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If the Democrats can't even be the "lesser" evil and instead vote right along with Republicans on issues like this what the hell is the point? They aren't doing poo poo when they get back into power. Schumer giving the go ahead for his caucus to vote however they wanted makes it very clear how the party stands on this which is "gently caress you," ESPECIALLY after Obama's terms where the banks did whatever they pleased and people had to deal with it. They have learned absolutely nothing except that they are allowed to be as evil as they want, especially now that Trump has pushed the bar for "greater" evil into outright White Supremacy.
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Mar 6, 2018 19:50
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In the last month the Democratic leadership has been trying its absolute hardest to convince me that's true.
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Mar 9, 2018 13:30
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steinrokkan posted:A non-zero number of people probably thought Trump was the lesser evil. I know several people exactly like this.
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Mar 9, 2018 23:25
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Inescapable Duck posted:"Lesser of two evils" is something you think about for your vote and only your own vote. When you bring it into public, it's not only worse than useless, it's absolutely disastrous. Exactly. The Democrats have turned what should be a tough personal decision into a method to hold the country hostage because they know a large percentage of people don't want terrible things to happen. It's why garbage like Tim Kaine knows he can vote for wildly irresponsible, unpopular bank deregulation and lie about why since people have to weigh that against Republicans doing even more evil things. Also if the lesser of two evils is the only thing we can ever hope to vote for then a collapse into fascism is the inevitable outcome and we are merely putting it off for some indeterminate time as both parties compete to move to more evil. The Democrats for the last decade thought that time was farther in the future but it looks like people are hyped to get moving in that direction and the situation is a lot more dire. That's the real "nothing matters" and accelerationism. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 23:34
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Eric Garland is an idiot that thinks Russian interference is behind every corner. He's now of course implying that Corbyn is on the Russian payroll. He doesn't have any actual ideology that I can figure out past getting paid and freaking out about Red Scare 2018. Also the most telling tweet replying to him is the guy saying he's a "Bill Clinton Liberal and Reagan Conservative." It makes sense that sort of person would be really mad a Democrat would be brought down by a sex scandal. Democratic centrists absolutely are showing they don't care about any leftist values since they think they can fool people into believing there are "good" Republicans which are much more ideologically close to their real beliefs of economic conservatism and only pretending to care about anything socially liberal. It's not Charlie Brown missing the football, he's giving Lucy the plays on how to do it. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Mar 11, 2018 |
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Mar 11, 2018 16:56
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It's really stupid. Every time Trump comes out with some stupid idea that we all assumed everyone disagreed with that idea suddenly surges in popularity from making all immigration harder to arming teachers. Lesser evilism assumes that politicians have to do the lovely things they do because the public demands it so we might as well pick the least bad option. In actuality the public believes many things are right or wrong because they think it's the reality as set by politicians. If the Democrats strongly came out in favor of something, that would become more favored by Democratic voters. Instead they want to lead from behind on almost every issue creating these decisions where we have to choose the least bad candidate instead of ones we are strongly invested in supporting. Then the individual voter is asked to make the moral decision where if they don't vote against Republicans, those Republicans will do bad things. It's good cop bad cop but on an electoral level and all the ethical decisions seemed to be thrust on voters instead of the politicians that for instance didn't vote in favor of DACA when they had the chance or just decided to roll back banking regulations as the request of almost no one. There's a severe lack of agency where lovely Red State Democrats HAVE to vote like assholes because their constituents supposedly demand it and need to be defended from criticism but if some person stays home he or she is directly responsible for all evils Republicans enact. It's very callous and disgusting hostage taking while also grossly misplacing the blame of government actions. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 19:14
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VitalSigns posted:I think it's like when they say "shut up about DACA, all you do is criticize Obama and the Democrats, why don't you listen to what immigrants are saying" and just assume immigrant advocates agree with them instead of the reality of immigrant advocates being the most vocal critics of Obama's deportation regime around. I remember then getting REALLY mad when that congressman was pointing out that Pelosi and Schumer were setting the Dreamers up to be hosed back in 2017 and he ended up being 100% correct. It's also incredibly cynical since they are explicitly holding these people as hostages like Pelosi stated when she started talking about starving children when rigging that primary was made public. "Vote for us or the Republicans will do bad things to people" and then when elected they keep the status quo intact so those people can be leveraged again next election. Like yeah the Republicans WILL be worse but at a certain point "less evil" is still evil and there needs to be some way to hold the supposed good guys accountable so they don't just get to keep playing the Good Cop to the Republicans Bad cop. That's supposed to be the primary but the "less evil" side has been making sure that isn't actually a choice it seems. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 16:02
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Mister Fister posted:The democratic attitude is basically, "What are you gonna do, vote republican? The reality is "probably not but we'll just lose interest in voting and stay home" which isn't as bad but still results in many lost elections. These sorts of people can only think in binary where everyone is either a Republican or Democratic voter and never seem to factor in a loss of faith in either party to represent their interests. Even more dangerous are the idiots like Schumer that think that pithy statement doesn't apply to Republicans and someday they will totally cross party lines in huge numbers.
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Apr 30, 2018 16:11
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The point of lesser evilism has always been "we aren't going to do much but we will be less bad" which callously shifts the burden onto the voters. Voters are evil or bad because they don't want to protect such and such a group when they stay home or vote third party. It removes all of the agency from the politicians themselves. So guys like Manchin are allowed to be terrible since "well he's the best that can get elected in West Virginia and he HAS to vote that way" and their honor is defended but if someone doesn't vote for him because he's trash well THAT person who has almost no power is the real issue here. It's absolutely calculated and disgusting. It also doesn't work until the greater evil gets REALLY bad. Voting for the lesser evil absolutely makes sense in situations where something bad has slipped through the cracks or the "good guys" made a mistake or something. However this should be a rare occasion and very significant. When a party has made it their defining feature that they aren't actually very good and can't do much to help you but hey THOSE guys over there are certainly worse they are bound to eventually lose, sometimes to a hilarious joke. This is from someone that DID vote lesser evil last time and look how well that plan worked out. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 18:01
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Look it makes much more sense for thousands of voters to suddenly understand and practice game theory than it does for individual politicians to not be self interested poo poo burgers.
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Apr 30, 2018 19:37
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Ytlaya posted:This is the thing that gets to me; the people complaining about others not voting basically have the very definition of "a political view/approach with no intent other than making the person feeling morally superior." There is zero chance that such arguments are going to have any impact on the trend of people choosing not to vote. The only thing that will do that is actual material change to peoples' circumstances. So it actually makes more sense to try to change the Democrats if your goal is to increase voting. Yeah people have been yelling about this since before some people able to vote in the next election had even been born (Nader  ) and it's never resulted in wins. People in this forum were crying about Nader voters in 2016 which is absurd.Even if you are right that people five elections ago gave us Bush, complaining about them and saying they are the real problem isn't going to get them around to your way of thinking, even if you could connect with enough to statistically flip an election. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 20:03
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VitalSigns posted:Reminder that the national party is still supporting Joe Manchin, the guy who crossed the aisle to kill DREAM even though enough Republicans voted for it to pass with unified Dem support, against his pro-DREAMer primary opponent Paula Swearingen. To be fair he missed the vote but certainly wouldn't have voted for it anyway. The point still stands. The Democrats could have easily passed a Dream act between 2008 and 2010 if they were willing to invoke cloture and get around their poo poo Dems. However I guess it's easier to just blame the "moderate" Democrats and not do poo poo then think up an overly complicated solution to protect "good" immigrants that then backfires when you hand over a list to a bunch of white supremacists. I think that's what defines centrist Democratic ideas more than anything: an overly complicated solution that doesn't work and usually backfires (and that's if you take them at their word they actually are trying to solve the problem) instead of just doing what people actually want or is the right thing to do. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:13 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 14:06
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Centrism is an inherently bankrupt ideology, especially when one side has descended into open fascism. You can't defend it using an actual argument so it's easier just attacking opponents rather than debate issues. Like when Hillary gave her post election speech about "being between the super right and super left I'm wondering what fraction of the super right she thought was good enough to simply mollify instead of outright reject. VitalSigns posted:He spoke out against it and since cloture votes require three-fifths of sworn senators and not of senators present and voting, not voting on cloture is precisely equivalent to voting against it. Yeah this is 100% true and I agree; I was just being picky.
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May 1, 2018 18:09
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When I mentioned people understanding game theory earlier I meant it fairly sarcastically since as VitalSigns says, game theory means the Democrats need only be 1% less evil than the Republicans and subvert Democracy in any way you can if you tell them ahead of time you will always vote for the lesser evil under all circumstances. Doing anything else would be silly if you don't actually care about progressive causes. Our terrible system pretty much encourages people to be put in a bad choice and I'm not really sure what the solution is since we can see the entire thing is collapsing around us and no one knows what to do other than try and cling to whatever job they have.
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May 1, 2018 19:59
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Dem primary voters and the party are pro dog torture. Democrats will never help the Dreamers since there are way too valuable as hostages and wouldn't want to force Red State Democrats to do anything. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 23:16 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 23:14
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VitalSigns posted:Reminder that while people in here are using minorities as props to threaten people into voting straight-ticket Democrat or Dems will let Republicans shoot the hostages, the real Democratic party just dragged an anti-gay anti-woman anti-Obamacare Democrat in a safe blue seat across the finish line by 1% over his pro-civil rights primary challenger. He's barely even that considering he dragged on Pelosi herself and was against the ACA, which is one of the only legislative victories the Democrats can point to in the last decade.
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May 3, 2018 18:07
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Wasn't the argument for why the DNC and DCCC were ignoring elections last year (while funding the hell out of Georgia) that their brand was too toxic for those areas?
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May 17, 2018 19:44
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Basically if Manchin is allowed to forsake the "always vote Democrat in the general rule" I see no reason why my worthless vote is held to a higher standard and I need to pull the lever for the likes of Mark Warner.
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Jun 6, 2018 19:52
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