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Snowman_McK posted:You're right, there are also cookie cutter compliments of the film's aesthetics as well as cookie cutter compliments of the film in general.
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Apr 3, 2018 04:39
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Timeless Appeal posted:the stakes of the movie are ... the soul of Wakanda. What does that even mean.
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Apr 3, 2018 04:51
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Timeless Appeal posted:It's fine to not enjoy the quality of discourse in this thread, but you're shifting goal posts. People can cite why they enjoy this movie. "Relatively little" has been my position from the beginning. I just think it's interesting that there's a lot more 'you're determined to hate marvel' or 'you're a racist' than 'no, the film is actually good because X' Which, again, is what I said Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 05:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:What does that even mean.
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Apr 3, 2018 05:32
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Timeless Appeal posted:The stakes are rooted in if Wakanda becomes an imperialistic nation or not. The end battle for the film is not to save white folks. It's to save Wakanda. Wakanda is already an imperialistic nation.
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Apr 3, 2018 06:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Wakanda is already an imperialistic nation.
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Apr 3, 2018 10:59
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Timeless Appeal posted:It's literally the opposite of an imperialistic nation to a fault. If it's not an imperialistic nation, why does it practice ethnic segregation, hoard resources, suppress revolutionary movements, and perform extralegal intelligence and police actions on the soil of sovereign nations?
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Apr 3, 2018 15:01
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Timeless Appeal posted:The stakes are rooted in if Wakanda becomes an imperialistic nation or not. You aren’t thinking this through very well. What is Wakanda? Is isolationism the soul of Wakanda? Why your dichotomy between isolationism and imperialism? Why no third option? Is Wakanda inherently oppressive? Is there a violence in Wakanda’s tribe-and-caste system? Is the king perceived as literally the soul of the nation instead of a figurehead-servant of the people? Does the tribe-and-caste system serve the same function as racism in naturalizing inequality? Does the king not get all his money from the people? Do the majority of these people even have internet access? Are they allowed to leave? Is it for their own good? On the other hand: what is the danger in arming the oppressed? Is the scene in 1992 Oakland not an obvious reference to the Rodney King riots? Were the riots ‘black imperialism’? Was it imperialism when the French Revolution spread to Haiti? Do you know why imperialism is even bad? And why is anti-imperialism the horizon? Why not anticapitalism? Why not egalitarianism? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 15:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Do you know why imperialism is even bad? Can you justify the film being anti-revolution? BravestOfTheLamps posted:If it's not an imperialistic nation, why does it practice ethnic segregation, hoard resources, suppress revolutionary movements, and perform extralegal intelligence and police actions on the soil of sovereign nations?
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Apr 3, 2018 20:04
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They might be xenophobic, interventionist reactionaries, but don't you dare call them imperialists.
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Apr 3, 2018 20:12
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Timeless Appeal posted:
Umm... The revolutionary dies and the King joins the reason the uprising happened.
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Apr 3, 2018 20:56
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It passed Jurassic World for number 4 today. By this weekend it will pass Titanic for number 3 all time.
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Apr 3, 2018 20:57
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bushisms.txt posted:Umm... The revolutionary dies and the King joins the reason the uprising happened.
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Apr 3, 2018 21:40
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Dan Freeman is not a revolutionary, but a CIA agent, who symbolically sets America ablaze with hatred.
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Apr 3, 2018 21:51
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Timeless Appeal posted:The revolutionary is a former CIA Agent who symbolically destroys the passage of power to anyone besides him. This is just going back to the key issue that people are taking Killmonger's words at face value instead of looking at who he actually is, what he actually does, and how the film codes him. Speak clearly. You are accomplishing nothing with these ’codes’ that imitate progressive language. “Symbolically destroys the passage of power to anyone besides him” is a very obvious spin on destroying the institutions of the monarchy from within. You are using deceit, implying that Killmonger takes power away from the people. That is an obvious falsehood. He took power from the monarchs. The guy quit the CIA and turned against its interests, defecting from America to become a revolutionary. Here you are again using deceit, implying you are against the CIA - supporting the ruler who openly allies with the CIA and is literally the ‘commander in chief’ of his own intelligence network. The question is what you have to gain by lying. What’s your investment here?
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Apr 4, 2018 00:03
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You aren’t thinking this through very well. What is Wakanda? Is isolationism the soul of Wakanda? Why your dichotomy between isolationism and imperialism? Why no third option? Is Wakanda inherently oppressive? Interestingly, in the one scene in Wakanda's streets, the king walks around with full bodyguard, all of whom are visibly armed. Timeless Appeal posted:The revolutionary is a former CIA Agent who symbolically destroys the passage of power to anyone besides him. This is just going back to the key issue that people are taking Killmonger's words at face value instead of looking at who he actually is, what he actually does, and how the film codes him. So, you're saying the revolutionary destroys the system that he's revolting against? Sounds like a good revolutionary. Again, he's stopped WITH THE HELP OF A DIFFERENT CIA AGENT. I apologise for the caps, but it's a plot element people are really keen to ignore for obvious reasons.
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Apr 4, 2018 01:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Speak clearly. You are accomplishing nothing with these ’codes’ that imitate progressive language. But your responses sound like we're having a sword fight on a hazardous bridge, so I'll let myself out.
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Apr 4, 2018 01:25
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killmonger didn't create an alternative for the monarchy. he left the cia but retained its ideology. his methods and goal was identical to the cia.
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Apr 4, 2018 01:43
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temple posted:killmonger didn't create an alternative for the monarchy. he left the cia but retained its ideology. his methods and goal was identical to the cia. Nah, the CIA was represented in the movie, and their goal was to restore T'Challa to power. I know this because that is exactly what they did in the movie.
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Apr 4, 2018 02:13
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Timeless Appeal posted:Your interpretation of him burning the herb doesn't really vibe with him taking the throne and ignoring the representation the other tribes do have beyond the tribe that is literally border security. Again, you are being deceptive here. You are using faux-democratic language to promote an antiquated tribe-and-caste system that is anathema to democracy. Each of the five tribes is a minor theocracy whose leaders legitimize their rule by claiming the blessing of various animal gods appropriated from other cultures. (Hanuman is a Hindu monkey-god - not a gorilla.) These tribal leaders are then allowed representation on the tribal council by swearing fealty to the king. There’s no democracy here. temple posted:killmonger didn't create an alternative for the monarchy. he left the cia but retained its ideology. his methods and goal was identical to the cia. That’s obviously false. Not only are you mixing up ‘ideologies’ and ‘tactics’, you’re attempting to claim that the CIA stands for egalitarianism. Why this deceit? Erik’s m.o. is, consistently, to turn the oppressor’s tactics against them. He uses CIA tactics to defeat the CIA, becomes king and then abolishes the monarchy, etc. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Apr 4, 2018 |
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Apr 4, 2018 03:27
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he used cia tactics against a sovereign african nation. sound familiar? he didn't defeat the cia, the only time he confronted the cia, it was to rescue klaue. i'd be down for a killmonger vs the cia but that wasn't the film we got.
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Apr 4, 2018 03:40
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temple posted:he used cia tactics against a sovereign african nation. sound familiar? Again, deceit. Liberalism and fascism are both opposed to communism. This obviously does not mean that liberalism and fascism are the same ideology. Nobody buys these crocodile tears over the rule of the panther king. It’s like when Pacific Rim came out and liberals were praising the character Mako Mori for being a female Japanese superhero (very few of those in the world) who passed the Bechdel Test (actually failed the test, so there was a campaign to create a consolation Test) - but invariably ignored that Mako Mori is a fascist character. This is what happens when you don’t have ideological critique and have to rely on shoddy alternatives.
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Apr 4, 2018 04:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Again, deceit. Liberalism and fascism are both opposed to communism. This obviously does not mean that liberalism and fascism are the same ideology.
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Apr 4, 2018 04:27
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Imagine if some rear end in a top hat in the US gets elected president, goes up on TV, and says “I am the panther king! Bast came to me in a vision! Democracy is abolished now. Regional lords will be selected via spirit animal, but most of you will be indentured serfs.”
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Apr 4, 2018 04:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Imagine if some rear end in a top hat in the US gets elected president, goes up on TV and says “I am the panther king! Democracy is abolished. Regional lords will be selected via spirit animal, but most of you will be indentured serfs.”
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Apr 4, 2018 04:55
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temple posted:that has nothing to do with killmonger destroying the herbs, btw. are you in the same discussion? i usually adore your posts but these are not satisfying. I think most people would like their leader to stop taking drugs in that situation. At the least.
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Apr 4, 2018 05:14
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the my little pony comparison is looking more and more apt as i think about it
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Apr 4, 2018 05:19
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ungulateman posted:the my little pony comparison is looking more and more apt as i think about it i unironically want to know more about this comparison
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Apr 4, 2018 05:20
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I’d say Black Panther is best read as a Borat-esque satire of the poo poo you can get away with by pretending to be Foreign.
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Apr 4, 2018 05:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I’d say Black Panther is best read as a Borat-esque satire of the poo poo you can get away with by pretending to be Foreign. Everyone look at this plebe who didnt get that Black Panther was a 
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Apr 4, 2018 06:11
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Brother Entropy posted:i unironically want to know more about this comparison long ago, in the magical land of when a dangerous outsider overthrows the kingdom to begin a new eternal reign, the young protege of the elder sibling must unite the plot twist! the dangerous outsider is the younger sibling, who the main connection is that both stories lean really hard on "monarchy is good, actually", but one is a childish fantasy and the other is a fantasy written for children
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Apr 4, 2018 08:48
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ungulateman posted:long ago, in the magical land of I really wish that rumour about Donald Glover being in this was true so I could work something in here about a childish gambit.
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Apr 4, 2018 09:37
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ungulateman posted:long ago, in the magical land of Again, The Lion King and a million other fables and cartoons about faraway kingdoms.
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Apr 4, 2018 17:10
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ungulateman posted:long ago, in the magical land of this is more or less what I was expecting but part of me was hoping to get edified on some obscure late season Pony Lore that made the comparison even more on point
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Apr 4, 2018 17:33
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why was Martin Freeman still alive at the end
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Apr 4, 2018 18:04
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CharlestonJew posted:why was Martin Freeman still alive at the end Because the cia are the good guys lol
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Apr 4, 2018 19:27
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bushisms.txt posted:Because the cia are the good guys lol I mean, it is in keeping with the theme form Winter soldier, isn't it? All the good agents instantly knew who the nazis were, and fought against the nazi agents, proving that the corruption stemmed from bad apples, and not the institution itself.
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Apr 6, 2018 00:05
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but the institution allowed for the corruption, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a corrupt institution can be so insidious as to allow otherwise good people to ignorantly remain within it and work to further its ends unknowingly? the message communicated is that no group, governmental or otherwise, is sacred or pure enough to be trusted with immense power, and that good people must be otherwise vigilant of bad actors at all times and be willing to oust them from power if found, violently if need be. its a small scale indictment of the society the movie was made in, good people exist in western governments yet they work towards evil ends because we have not vigilantly protected these institutions from corruption. it is a call to action to root out the 'hyrda' in our own government. its a very heavy handed metaphor too, what with the villain plot being "bigger eviler drones", it is surprising how many people walk out with the opposite message.
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Apr 6, 2018 00:22
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Farg posted:its a very heavy handed metaphor too, what with the villain plot being "bigger eviler drones", it is surprising how many people walk out with the opposite message. That gets muddied, though, because that was also Nick Fury's plot. The insight carriers were being built with his blessing, they may have even been his idea, but they were going to target terrorists based on DNA signature. Shield isn''t corrupted by Hydra, it is literally the same organisation. Same goals, same methods. And Fury still wants to keep the carriers at the end, Cap has to talk him out of it. Essentially, there are no good guys in the Marvel universe, but the films play out as if there are.
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Apr 6, 2018 00:53
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The “bad guys” also overwhelmingly outnumber the good guys which is how they so easily take control of the helicarriers and launch them. Shield doesn’t have a few bad apples from Hydra, it’s a few okay apples in a rotten bunch. And of course everyone in the movie seems to mostly know who is a bad guy and who is a good guy as soon as Cap gives his speech, which leads one to wonder why they didn’t care that they were working with Nazi’s to build a drone army before right that minute.
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Apr 6, 2018 00:58
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