BotM: MARCH: LINCOLN IN THE BARDO by George Saunders

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > BotM: MARCH: LINCOLN IN THE BARDO by George Saunders

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Franchescanado posted:

He realizes that many sons will die on both sides.
He also realizes that half of the sons are dying for the cause of owning other humans.
He also also realizes that he's not winning any popularity contests at the time, and so would rather embrace the difficult but morally right thing and fight for what he believes will be best for the country.
He also also also becomes influenced by the spirit of a black man who suffered at the hands of white people. The book slowly reveals the nature of how spirits can influence the living, and that spirits with stronger conviction/energy--whether that is love, hate or something else--have more influence on each other. He literally gains empathy for the minorities who will continue suffering if things don't change because one enters him.

Sorry you don't like it, but the book didn't pull any deus ex gotchas with the ending.

There's also the fact that the narrative core of the novel is about abandoning the burden of desire and accepting reality. Lincoln, like the spirits, lets go of the things he wished were not true, and found the will to accept the reality of his situation.

Like, there's a reason the title specifically evokes a Buddhist concept

# ? Mar 20, 2018 18:48

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# ? Apr 30, 2024 01:50

Franchescanado: Feb 23, 2013; If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment; Grimey Drawer

Mel Mudkiper posted:

There's also the fact that the narrative core of the novel is about abandoning the burden of desire and accepting reality. Lincoln, like the spirits, lets go of the things he wished were not true, and found the will to accept the reality of his situation.

Like, there's a reason the title specifically evokes a Buddhist concept

That's a good point as well.

# ? Mar 20, 2018 18:53

Guy A. Person: May 23, 2003

Franchescanado posted:

He also also realizes that he's not winning any popularity contests at the time, and so would rather embrace the difficult but morally right thing and fight for what he believes will be best for the country.

This is the point I was basically going to make. They have a chapter of editorials dedicated to how Lincoln was being perceived after the first battle with major casualties, and he is not treated kindly. He is perceived as having dipped his toes into the water so to speak and its assumed that he will probably fold right away so the deaths so far will have been for absolutely nothing. There's a bunch of quotes guessing that he will be remembered as a timid president with no resolve who allowed the union to fall apart under his watch.

And indeed when he is dealing with his own son's death he is rattled when comparing his personal grief with that of the families of soldiers that he personally has sent off to die. But through his experiences in the graveyard he realizes that everyone must die one day and that life is both incredibly precious and incredibly fragile and that he can't just back out of the war and resign the nation to more tragedy. He has to power through it with even more cold brutality if he is going to actually change the future of the country for the better.

# ? Mar 20, 2018 19:30

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

pleasecallmechrist posted:

Implying that at the highest levels of power the Civil War wasn't actually fought to consolidate Industrialist power by destroying the agricultural barons of the South.

You are a pathetically predictable idealogue.

lol

although i will say i didn't find the potential-possession at the end really that compelling either? it also sort of had the effect of lionizing lincoln as one of either a spirit of vengeance or a supernaturally woke anti-racist which a) seems ahistorical and b) somewhat undoes much of the effort spent in humanizing him and placing him in context as a historical figure. it was not quite as jarring as if jesus' time in the garden of gethsemane had ended up with g-d giving him a slap on the back and saying "go get 'em, champ," but it still didn't feel great

# ? Mar 21, 2018 05:42

Down With People: Oct 31, 2012; The child delights in violence.

pleasecallmechrist posted:

Implying that at the highest levels of power the Civil War wasn't actually fought to consolidate Industrialist power by destroying the agricultural barons of the South.

You are a pathetically predictable idealogue.

lose another war bitch

Tree Goat posted:

lol

although i will say i didn't find the potential-possession at the end really that compelling either? it also sort of had the effect of lionizing lincoln as one of either a spirit of vengeance or a supernaturally woke anti-racist which a) seems ahistorical and b) somewhat undoes much of the effort spent in humanizing him and placing him in context as a historical figure. it was not quite as jarring as if jesus' time in the garden of gethsemane had ended up with g-d giving him a slap on the back and saying "go get 'em, champ," but it still didn't feel great

I thought it was some cornball poo poo to be honest I wasn't keen on that

# ? Mar 21, 2018 06:57

whatevz: Sep 22, 2013; I lack the most basic processes inherent in all living organisms: reproducing and dying.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

"Heh, well actually the Civil War was about the economic forces of modernity snuffing out a dark ages era social system that was only economically sustainable through the literal ownership of human beings"

Translation: y-you're right b-but s-s-so what. Herp derp slavery. Punch a nazi! :circlefap:

Franchescanado posted:

Sorry you don't like it, but the book didn't pull any deus ex gotchas with the ending.

I don't think it pulled a gotcha. I thought the book was beautiful and it dealt with race well. I'm saying the possession was tacked on and took an unnecessary turn to essentially try to make his son's death the impetus for the Emancipation Proclamation. See:

Tree Goat posted:

it also sort of had the effect of lionizing lincoln as one of either a spirit of vengeance or a supernaturally woke anti-racist which a) seems ahistorical and b) somewhat undoes much of the effort spent in humanizing him and placing him in context as a historical figure.

Down With People posted:

lose another war bitch

Implying anything I said says I give a gently caress about who won the Civil War. Go change your tampon sweetie.

# ? Mar 21, 2018 18:05

Guy A. Person: May 23, 2003

hahhah wooooh

this BotM thread has got some spice on it!

# ? Mar 21, 2018 18:27

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

pleasecallmechrist posted:

Translation: y-you're right b-but s-s-so what. Herp derp slavery. Punch a nazi!

Actually my point was that even if your insane assertion was correct it was still inarguably the moral outcome

# ? Mar 21, 2018 19:39

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

i was all set for a troll of the form �saunders� sentimentality, while effective in his short stories, turns maudlin and superficial when stretched out to novel lengths.� i should have aimed higher.

# ? Mar 21, 2018 19:41

Down With People: Oct 31, 2012; The child delights in violence.

pleasecallmechrist posted:

Implying anything I said says I give a gently caress about who won the Civil War. Go change your tampon sweetie.

I dunno dude you just angrily quote-replied everyone in the thread making fun of you so it seems like you do actually care about this a lot

Down With People fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Mar 21, 2018

# ? Mar 21, 2018 22:31

chernobyl kinsman: Mar 18, 2007; a friend of the friendly atom; Soiled Meat

pleasecallmechrist posted:

Herp derp slavery.

im really gonna need to know what level of irony you're operating on before i reply to this post

# ? Mar 22, 2018 01:48

tetrapyloctomy: Feb 18, 2003; Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.; Nap Ghost

I think I'm going to do the audiobook the second time around, hopefully it lives up to the hype.

# ? Mar 23, 2018 13:05

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I feel like the audiobook would be such a drastically different experience from simply reading the book that it probably should count as a separate work

# ? Mar 23, 2018 13:24

tetrapyloctomy: Feb 18, 2003; Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.; Nap Ghost

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I feel like the audiobook would be such a drastically different experience from simply reading the book that it probably should count as a separate work

With 166 narrators, it's more like a high-budge radio play.

I'm generally not a big audiobook fan, I think the structure of the book lends itself to being read aloud (especially by so many people).

# ? Mar 23, 2018 15:43

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

tetrapyloctomy posted:

I'm generally not a big audiobook fan, I think the structure of the book lends itself to being read aloud (especially by so many people).

I mean it strikes me a bit like Goethe's Faust in that its technically a play but a play specifically written to be read rather than performed

# ? Mar 23, 2018 16:21

thatdarnedbob: Jan 1, 2006; why must this exist?

Strong agree on the read play take, there. I read the book instead of listening to the audiobook, and eventually my preferred visualization became a staged setting, quite naturally, with each quoted word read out loud on top of the action.

Regarding Lincoln's shift, sure there's a bit of "The Spirits have done it all in one night" in there, but I bought it, given Lincoln's actual expressed opinions and the lines between personal, private and public thoughts.

I am a bit ashamed to admit I started reading this without any spoilers, so I thought that it would involve Lincoln's own death and bardo. It took a little while to get that out of my head.

# ? Mar 23, 2018 20:11

Jack B Nimble: Dec 25, 2007; Soiled Meat

thatdarnedbob posted:

I am a bit ashamed to admit I started reading this without any spoilers, so I thought that it would involve Lincoln's own death and bardo. It took a little while to get that out of my head.

Yes, absolutely, the book had a hole to get out of but it flew.

# ? Mar 23, 2018 20:37

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Jack B Nimble posted:

Yes, absolutely, the book had a hole to get out of but it flew.

How many people needed at least two or three pages before they realized the opening is not Lincoln talking about marrying Martha

# ? Mar 23, 2018 22:08

OscarDiggs: Jun 1, 2011; Those sure are words on pages which are given in a sequential order!

Mel Mudkiper posted:

How many people needed at least two or three pages before they realized the opening is not Lincoln talking about marrying Martha

*Raises Hand*

Though, to be fair, I also had to climb out of the "Is the book actually about 'Lincoln' Lincoln" hole at the same time.

# ? Mar 23, 2018 22:12

chernobyl kinsman: Mar 18, 2007; a friend of the friendly atom; Soiled Meat

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Like, there's a reason the title specifically evokes a Buddhist concept

and a reason it's ambiguous as to which Lincoln it's referring to

# ? Mar 24, 2018 02:07

Guy A. Person: May 23, 2003

chernobyl kinsman posted:

Bardo rules and definitely owes a fair bit* to edgar lee masters' spoon river anthology, which is also excellent but has fewer dick jokes

I actually spotted this at the library earlier today and remembered this post so I grabbed it. Looking forward to seeing how LitB draws from it.

# ? Mar 24, 2018 06:55

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Oh poo poo need suggestions for next month

how about Bob Honey Who Just Do Stuff

# ? Mar 29, 2018 13:40

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Oh poo poo need suggestions for next month

how about Bob Honey Who Just Do Stuff

I will come and loving find you and children will tell each ghost stories about the horrible things that happened if you put that fucki ng book on the list

# ? Mar 29, 2018 13:59

whatevz: Sep 22, 2013; I lack the most basic processes inherent in all living organisms: reproducing and dying.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Oh poo poo need suggestions for next month

how about Bob Honey Who Just Do Stuff

The long home by William Gay

# ? Mar 29, 2018 14:19

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I will come and loving find you and children will tell each ghost stories about the horrible things that happened if you put that fucki ng book on the list

I need some ideas then

# ? Mar 30, 2018 03:44

Down With People: Oct 31, 2012; The child delights in violence.

I'm reading Delany's Dhalgren right now so it would be really convenient for me if everyone else also had to read Dhalgren

# ? Mar 30, 2018 03:47

chernobyl kinsman: Mar 18, 2007; a friend of the friendly atom; Soiled Meat

do the twenty days of turin. it's big-dick lit enough to appease most of the child loving thread and it has enough trans-dimensional monsters to satisfy the genre fiction contingent

quote:

Written during the height of the 1970s Italian domestic terror, a cult novel, with distinct echoes of Lovecraft and Borges, makes its English-language debut.

In the spare wing of a church-run sanatorium, some zealous youths create "the Library," a space where lonely citizens can read one another�s personal diaries and connect with like-minded souls in "dialogues across the ether." But when their scribblings devolve into the ugliest confessions of the macabre, the Library�s users learn too late that a malicious force has consumed their privacy and their sanity. As the city of Turin suffers a twenty-day "phenomenon of collective psychosis" culminating in nightly massacres that hundreds of witnesses cannot explain, the Library is shut down and erased from history. That is, until a lonely salaryman decides to investigate these mysterious events, which the citizenry of Turin fear to mention. Inevitably drawn into the city�s occult netherworld, he unearths the stuff of modern nightmares: what�s shared can never be unshared.

# ? Mar 30, 2018 04:02

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

chernobyl kinsman posted:

do the twenty days of turin. it's big-dick lit enough to appease most of the child loving thread and it has enough trans-dimensional monsters to satisfy the genre fiction contingent

That actually sounds really cool, even if the description makes it look like pretty standard cosmic horror; what do childfuckers like about it, the politics?

anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Mar 30, 2018

# ? Mar 30, 2018 10:57

CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

How about - and please hear me out here - BABYFUCKER by URS ALLEMANN

# ? Mar 30, 2018 11:47

Idaholy Roller: May 19, 2009

I chose Lincoln in the Bardo as my free audible book. Not finished it yet, but I�m struggling a bit to keep track of who is who. Nick Offerman is obviously memorable enough, especially since he starts the book, a few others I�m getting confused with though. I am liking it though, as long as I don�t expend too much effort trying to figure out who is who the writing is beautiful. I�m 2 of 7 hours in so maybe it�ll get easier but I�m not sure not whether I should have gone for the book version or not.

# ? Mar 30, 2018 13:01

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

CestMoi posted:

How about - and please hear me out here - BABYFUCKER by URS ALLEMANN

You know what, hell yeah

Put Mel down for babyfucker

# ? Mar 30, 2018 13:35

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

CestMoi posted:

How about - and please hear me out here - BABYFUCKER by URS ALLEMANN

The absolute last thing I need is the shitstorm that could cause in places like QQCS. Maybe if the author wins a Nobel Prize or it gets made into a mainstream, major studio film (like happened with Lolita)

I'm leaning towards something accessible for next month.

Down With People posted:

I'm reading Delany's Dhalgren right now so it would be really convenient for me if everyone else also had to read Dhalgren

You've basically just unlocked the ur-code of how I pick these

# ? Mar 30, 2018 13:48

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

What would qqcs care?

# ? Mar 30, 2018 13:49

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Mel Mudkiper posted:

What would qqcs care?

They might not, but there's a contingent of folks who are always trolling around the forums looking to start fights with or about moderators, and anything that even resembles "pedo friendly mod" is a giant red flag for them.

Plus I don't really want to read the book, it sounds more like a gimmick than quality writing. If it were something like Lolita the fight might be worth it but even then we already did Pale Fire recently

edit: I'm really thinking more of the offsites than of QQCS.

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Mar 30, 2018

# ? Mar 30, 2018 13:54

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

alright but if you end up claiming a 250 year old public domain proto-fantasy book is the accessible alternative I am gonna tell everyone in QQCS you like anime porn

EDIT: Since you want to avoid controversy might I instead recommend "Faggots" by Larry Kramer

# ? Mar 30, 2018 14:29

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Mel Mudkiper posted:

alright but if you end up claiming a 250 year old public domain proto-fantasy book is the accessible alternative I am gonna tell everyone in QQCS you like anime porn

EDIT: Since you want to avoid controversy might I instead recommend "Faggots" by Larry Kramer

OK, The Coming Race it is, that's only like 150 years old

(don't worry I'm just kidding, even I can't manage to enjoy Bulwer-Lytton and I've tried, repeatedly)

# ? Mar 30, 2018 14:51

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

my mail delivery person has been leaving packages precariously balanced on top of my mailbox that is right on a public street, so my packages have been stolen pretty much half the time.

but this time the thief tore open my amazon delivery envelope, saw that it contained nothing but wittgenstein's mistress and universal harvester, and just put it back on top of my mailbox, which i interpret as an Omen.

# ? Mar 30, 2018 15:05

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

OK, The Coming Race it is, that's only like 150 years old

(don't worry I'm just kidding, even I can't manage to enjoy Bulwer-Lytton and I've tried, repeatedly)

Isnt that the dude whose main claim to fame is that he was a legendarily poo poo writer

# ? Mar 30, 2018 15:46

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Isnt that the dude whose main claim to fame is that he was a legendarily poo poo writer

Yes!

Though actually he was very well-regarded and popular at the time. He seems to have had a bizarre talent for coining the cliches of the future.

quote:

He coined the phrases "the great unwashed", "pursuit of the almighty dollar", "the pen is mightier than the sword", "dweller on the threshold", and the well-known and much-parodied opening line "It was a dark and stormy night".[1]

So he wasn't someone like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_McKittrick_Ros who was just always bad, he somehow managed to convince everyone at the time that he was brilliant

edit oh my we could do this one

quote:

The Oxford literary group the Inklings, which included C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien, held competitions to see who could read Ros' work aloud for the longest length of time without laughing.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34181/34181-h/34181-h.htm

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Mar 30, 2018

# ? Mar 30, 2018 15:53

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# ? Apr 30, 2024 01:50

Guy A. Person: May 23, 2003

CestMoi posted:

How about - and please hear me out here - BABYFUCKER by URS ALLEMANN

Is the dude's other book worth checking out?

# ? Mar 30, 2018 16:16

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > BotM: MARCH: LINCOLN IN THE BARDO by George Saunders

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