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Dude Hitler was the epitome of whiny idiot who spins all their fuckups and personal crusades as part of the master plan and was in charge of a major movement and then a country for like 20+ years. Marco seems at least partially based on that.
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 20:37
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bloom posted:It's all fine until that point. Where things start to suck is when he keeps loving up and going "that was all part of my master plan, now let's chase after my ex!". I just couldn't buy that people as independently minded as belters would go along with that. Someone not being able to get over their ex is pathetic enough if it's just complaining over beers, who's gonna put up with that poo poo from a military leader? I mean her ex isn't some smuck, it's James loving Holden. I don't think it's too much of a stretch for a Free Navy Belter to understand he's a symbol that needs to go away.
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Jul 2, 2018 20:39
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It's easy to forget that Marco was a tool of Duarte, and was only able to execute the rock fall because of Duarte's resources. It's no surprise the once Marco's utility for The Master Plan was exhausted, and Marco was left to his own devices because Duarte just needed chaos in the system, things went to poo poo really quick, because Marco was just a pretty face who had no ideological commitment to any cause but his own aggrandizement. There were plenty of people in the Free Navy uprising who really did want to build a better belt for all Belters, but Marco didn't give a poo poo about that, he just wanted to be the big leader figure and look cool. You can make arguments about whether or not those people who really wanted a fully independent belt should have collaborated with Marco at all, but the situation Duarte set up was a fait accompli - the rocks were a big symbol of Belter power, and the Martian ships gave Marco the only serious military muscle in the belt. It's been a while since I read book 5 and 6 so I don't remember if people like Pa or the nitrogen economy science nerd were in on the planning stages of the rock fall itself, and if they were, yeah that's pretty obviously terrible. But if your options are slow death due to the realities of Inner-centric economics, death as traitors at the hands Belter piloted Martian gunships, or riding along with the only thing going in terms of a truly independent belt - especially before it's revealed that Marco is such a useless tool - yeah I can see how people might take that option. Remember, Eros would color their perceptions of the Inners greatly, and even though the casualties inflicted on Earth weren't proportional to those inflicted on the belt, Eros contained something like 1.5-3% of all Belters, and was absolutely an Inner plot callously inflicted on the Belters for Inner gain. Given how a country like the U.S. was driven insane by an event like 9/11, the notion that the belt would similarly be open to a symbol of retribution makes sense. I don't know if the rock fall was needed to achieve Belter independence, and given Duarte's real goals, and his driving role in the plot I'm skeptical, but at the same time I'm reminded of Mark Twain's comment on the terror of the French revolution: quote:There were two 'Reigns of Terror,' if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the 'horrors' of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? Obviously the numbers don't follow in this circumstance, but revolutionary actions tend to be judged much more harshly than the cruel status quo that preceded them, and any Belter revolution would have required some act of violence to break away from Inner domination. I just don't know if dropping the rocks was the only way. ATP_Power fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 20:43
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ATP_Power posted:Remember, Eros would color their perceptions of the Inners greatly, and even though the casualties inflicted on Earth weren't proportional to those inflicted on the belt, Eros contained something like 1.5-3% of all Belters, and was absolutely an Inner plot callously inflicted on the Belters for Inner gain. Given how a country like the U.S. was driven insane by an event like 9/11, the notion that the belt would similarly be open to a symbol of retribution makes sense. Protogen : ”Inner plot” :: Al Qaeda : “Muslim plot” Are you sure Eros was absolutely an Inner plot?
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Jul 2, 2018 20:59
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Eros was an inside job wake up welwala!!
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Jul 2, 2018 21:00
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Eros and later the whole Project Caliban saga was Inner scientists supported by Inner money torturing millions of Belters to death to satisfy the curiosity/make profit for Inner bourgeoisie and governments. The Al Qaeda analogy might work better if Protogen wasn't thoroughly intertwined with Inner powers to the point that they're basically a shadow government.
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Jul 2, 2018 21:09
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bloom posted:It's all fine until that point. Where things start to suck is when he keeps loving up and going "that was all part of my master plan, now let's chase after my ex!". I just couldn't buy that people as independently minded as belters would go along with that. Someone not being able to get over their ex is pathetic enough if it's just complaining over beers, who's gonna put up with that poo poo from a military leader?
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Jul 2, 2018 22:32
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When I'm talking to people who haven't read the books, I always try and make it a point that show Holden is actually a more likable character than book Holden. Most people dislike him in the show, but book Holden is a more exaggerated version of little babby moral absolutist, and he's seldom even consistent about it. I'm rereading the novels and I forgot how obnoxious the part is in Babylon's Ashes when he loving disarms the torpedoes that would have killed Inaros. An opportunity to kill the people behind an atrocity with a running body count of like 10 billion, and Holden sabotages it because one of them is related to someone he loves. But he will blow up a humanitarian aid ship to keep the quarantine on Eros in effect. His ethical calculus is insane and his crew should have spaced him by now.
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Jul 3, 2018 02:21
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Snowman Crossing posted:When I'm talking to people who haven't read the books, I always try and make it a point that show Holden is actually a more likable character than book Holden. Most people dislike him in the show, but book Holden is a more exaggerated version of little babby moral absolutist, and he's seldom even consistent about it. I'm rereading the novels and I forgot how obnoxious the part is in Babylon's Ashes when he loving disarms the torpedoes that would have killed Inaros. An opportunity to kill the people behind an atrocity with a running body count of like 10 billion, and Holden sabotages it because one of them is related to someone he loves. But he will blow up a humanitarian aid ship to keep the quarantine on Eros in effect. His ethical calculus is insane and his crew should have spaced him by now. Not disagreeing, but the aid ship at Eros isn't in the books.
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Jul 3, 2018 03:07
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based on what the show crew have said about going to Mars in season 4 i've got a feeling we're going to see the Duarte and Inaros stuff intercut with events beyond the ring, and my biggest question is who's going to play God-Emperor Space Napoleon comedy option is Jeff Bezos himself of course
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Jul 3, 2018 04:33
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It needs to be a charismatic, middle-aged, Latino man. That's how I pictured him in the books. A much younger Edward James Olmos could have pulled it off. I'm not sure who they'll pick who is appropriate, but it's a really important casting decision since he is basically the villain that needs to convincing carry a system-spanning evil plan that will cover multiple seasons.
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Jul 3, 2018 04:48
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I'd be fine with EJO, tbqh. Get Diego Luna.
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Jul 3, 2018 04:58
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Patton Oswalt
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Jul 3, 2018 05:01
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I vote Giancarlo Esposito for Duarte. And Rodrigo Santoro for Marco.
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Jul 3, 2018 06:21
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:I vote Giancarlo Esposito for Duarte. I can get behind this.
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Jul 3, 2018 06:25
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:I vote Giancarlo Esposito for Duarte. Ok. Those work.
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Jul 3, 2018 07:05
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Gus could make a good Immortal Space Hitler.
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Jul 3, 2018 07:12
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Someone remind me: Were Belter exo-skelitons a thing in the books? I read a lot of Scifi and poo poo gets mixed up sometimes 
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Jul 3, 2018 08:01
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There are the exoskeleton welding rig things. What Bull used to walk around was one of those, I think.
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Jul 3, 2018 08:25
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Svaha posted:Someone remind me: Were Belter exo-skelitons a thing in the books? I read a lot of Scifi and poo poo gets mixed up sometimes Exoskeletons for coping with gravity like they're talking about in the other thread? Not that I recall. There are the construction exoskeletons that Clarissa and Bull use, but that's about it.
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Jul 3, 2018 08:29
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Thanks. Must have been from something else where adapting from living in low g to high g was a thing.
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Jul 3, 2018 09:11
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Svaha posted:Thanks. Must have been from something else where adapting from living in low g to high g was a thing. Might've been Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy; exoskeletons like that get mentioned a few times.
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Jul 3, 2018 13:08
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:I vote Giancarlo Esposito for Duarte. drat, yeah, right on e: Rodrigo Santoro looks just enough like Steven Straight to establish that Naomi as a type
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Jul 3, 2018 14:21
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Esposito is 20 years too old, Duarte is just a mid ranking officer and would be 36-40 if Mars has similar promotion timelines as the US military.
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Jul 3, 2018 14:37
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Wxhode posted:Esposito is 20 years too old, Duarte is just a mid ranking officer and would be 36-40 if Mars has similar promotion timelines as the US military. Those are things that could easily be changed though.
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Jul 3, 2018 14:55
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Bobbie's been in for twelve years when she's introduced, that's the only specific time attached to a rank I can think of. Holden was a lieutenant when he got thrown out? But I don't remember if they gave a length of service for him.
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Jul 3, 2018 15:06
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Grand Fromage posted:Bobbie's been in for twelve years when she's introduced, that's the only specific time attached to a rank I can think of. Holden was a lieutenant when he got thrown out? But I don't remember if they gave a length of service for him. It was a coupla three years, right for a LT junior grade who did training and a cruise or two to get disillusioned.
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Jul 3, 2018 15:11
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bloom posted:Those are things that could easily be changed though. not like ashford is a half-crisped space pirate in the book
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Jul 3, 2018 16:27
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Svaha posted:Someone remind me: Were Belter exo-skelitons a thing in the books? I read a lot of Scifi and poo poo gets mixed up sometimes I could have sworn they existed to aid in walking. Actually I think they got brought up in regards to the Martians showing up on Earth. How the UN offers them every time a bunch of Mars mooks show up, and the Martians always say no out of pride, but it's clear they really should be using them and have a hard time getting around for the first few days.
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Jul 3, 2018 21:38
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:I vote Giancarlo Esposito for Duarte. These would be fantastic picks. Even though older, Esposito having these grand ambitions and then basically never getting promoted as a way to look incompetent and stay under the radar as he slowly executes his master plan, and the fact that gently caress it, I'd follow the dude to create some new civilization from scratch, he'd be an amazing fit. Santoro is also a good pick for Duarte because he could pull off being just charismatic enough to get himself in way over his head. I'm kind of blown away that he played Xerxes in 300 and Paolo in Lost.
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Jul 3, 2018 21:45
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:
*rocks fall* And let that be a lesson! And the lesson is: *eaten by ring*
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Jul 3, 2018 21:47
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Oh hey, he was one part of that annoying Brazilian couple that everyone hated on Lost.
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Jul 3, 2018 22:07
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Combat Pretzel posted:Oh hey, he was one part of that annoying Brazilian couple that everyone hated on Lost. 
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Jul 3, 2018 22:42
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Michael Mando is my dream Marco casting, but Santoro is much more of a realistic target for the show. Also the head VFX guy is leaving so that's hopeful.
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Jul 3, 2018 23:02
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PriorMarcus posted:Also the head VFX guy is leaving so that's hopeful.
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Jul 3, 2018 23:04
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Combat Pretzel posted:Huh? Why is that hopeful? The quality of the VFX is always very good, but I think some of the decisions are terrible. The way that space combat is usually filmed is all swooping cameras and zooming past things towards other things. The battle above Ganymede, for example, is basically incomprehensible to casual viewers from my experience. Also, I always think that it looks like the camera is moving passed the ships when we get a fly by shot, rather than the ship flying passed the camera if that makes sense.
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Jul 3, 2018 23:10
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PriorMarcus posted:The quality of the VFX is always very good, but I think some of the decisions are terrible. It sounds like a lot of the problems I've had with the VFX have been budget related...unlikely, but maybe Amazon money will let them take their time more with that stuff?
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Jul 4, 2018 00:31
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I just really hope they overhaul the alien stuff
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Jul 4, 2018 00:33
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PriorMarcus posted:Also the head VFX guy is leaving so that's hopeful. E:nm it's right on his twitter https://twitter.com/ExpanseVFX Phi230 posted:I just really hope they overhaul the alien stuff Yeah that was my only real disappointment with the show. Too much blue glowy stuff, not enough Lovecraftian body horror. The alien stuff was just so much more colorful and menacing in the books. Svaha fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jul 4, 2018 |
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Jul 4, 2018 01:56
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That was a conscious decision, because they felt there was already way more than enough zombie stuff on TV as is.
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Jul 4, 2018 02:14
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