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rudatron posted:but to reiterate what I said the the doomsday thread - the rural -> urban migration is an inevitable one as. In the pre ww2 era, almost everything is made locally, because transporting products globally was absurd, any everything is simple enough that you can get away with it. that's obviously not the case now. but factories benefit from a supply chain that's as short as possible. so you build a bunch of factories right next to each other. that means you need cities to service them. this was the case to some extent long before the wwii era tho. that's why so many cities (especially older ones) are near coasts or rivers, which made them convenient places for commerce, trade, and other long-distance shipping in the us, urban migration was largely driven by the economic destruction of small farmers. the massive advanced in agricultural automation during the early decades of the 20th century put pressure on rural workers. then the Dust Bowl and Great Depression devastated the economy in highly-rural regions and caused millions to leave in search of work, leaving the big farmers and agribusinesses with plenty of abandoned farmlands to buy up and consolidate after things recovered. then WWII happened and caused yet another exodus of capable workers, and the government actively subsidized and assisted growers in adapting to the smaller workforce, so when all those young men came back from overseas, they found that the farms had largely rendered them obsolete while the factories were desperately hungry for laborers
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Mar 24, 2018 18:04
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Accretionist posted:I'm mocking you because your small town fetish is causing you to hallucinate my dude you literally believe in shipping everyone into megacities lol
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Mar 24, 2018 18:50
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speaking as someone who lives in a big city, everyone should live in a big city there I said it
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Mar 24, 2018 18:56
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Accretionist posted:Suburbs are horseshit. If you were going to do this presumably the goal would be to help people to move to the places where the jobs are, which means places like California. I'm sure Californians would really appreciate the Federal government spending billions of dollars to move poor West Virginians into their state or w/e. I'm also sure this couldn't possibly have any effects at all on the rent (which is already too drat high!!!) in receiving areas. Probably you'd just end up increasing the rate of increase for suburban poverty on this graph:  The main issue w/r to housing is there isn't enough of it. Build more houses where there are jobs, and people will move themselves there, if they want to move. The reason rural poverty has mostly remained static is that rural people have long been migrating on their own volition. However you are basically proposing a Federal program with the explicit objective of destroying rural communities in places like the Navajo reservation. And although it's residents have a lot of problems with poverty, I doubt they'd appreciate assholes coming in and telling them to gtfo.
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Mar 24, 2018 19:00
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Suburbs and countryside are good. Enjoy your piss-rancid gutters, you city trash
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Mar 24, 2018 19:10
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:my dude you literally believe in shipping everyone into megacities lol Sort of. By 2100, I expect the world to be pretty dire. Squalid posted:people will move themselves there, if they want to move. This is a, "why don't poor people just buy more money," answer. Moving long-distance is an impossible cost for many, many Americans. quote:However you are basically proposing a Federal program with the explicit objective of destroying rural communities in places like the Navajo reservation. And although it's residents have a lot of problems with poverty, I doubt they'd appreciate assholes coming in and telling them to gtfo. If it's optional, how is it a mandate?
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Mar 24, 2018 19:10
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Accretionist posted:Sort of. By 2100, I expect the world to be pretty dire. lol, you aren't even denying it
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Mar 24, 2018 19:46
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Squalid posted:lol, you aren't even denying it It's a red herring. You pulled out some Ryan-esque, "welfare destroys poor people," style rhetoric. You're using Native Americans like subhuman props so gently caress you and gently caress that. Also, it doesn't even make sense so gently caress you for that, too
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Mar 24, 2018 19:48
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You're assuming this is true:quote:people will move themselves How about it actually be true? I think that would help people. p.s. gently caress you Accretionist has issued a correction as of 19:54 on Mar 24, 2018 |
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Mar 24, 2018 19:49
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where tf do you live accretionist? are you another poo poo-lib out of nyc?
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Mar 24, 2018 19:53
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Grognan posted:where tf do you live accretionist? are you another poo poo-lib out of nyc? gently caress no, and I've lived in a few different areas.* Miserably poor for a good part of it. You people see poor people as noble savages to grandstand over edit: * Super loving lucky to have moved each time
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Mar 24, 2018 19:55
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where as, you just think the poor are savages to be relocated for their betterment?
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Mar 24, 2018 20:05
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Someone like 9 years ago recommended a book called A Pattern Language in a topic like this. It's very good. And free. http://library.uniteddiversity.coop/Ecological_Building/A_Pattern_Language.pdf
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Mar 24, 2018 20:07
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Grognan posted:where as, you just think the poor are savages to be relocated for their betterment? Squalid made that up (because he's a classist poo poo). If people want to leave failed towns, they should have that option. In fact, Squalid thinks they already can (because poor people can just, like, move whenever and wherever they want, right?). What value are you attaching to the immobility of people trapped in failed towns? Accretionist has issued a correction as of 20:11 on Mar 24, 2018 |
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Mar 24, 2018 20:09
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I've seen a few failed towns in my time, but the world isn't a simcity game and it isn't the inherent destiny of every settled community to become a metropolis or else close up
Gazpacho has issued a correction as of 20:24 on Mar 24, 2018 |
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Mar 24, 2018 20:21
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Gazpacho posted:Suburbs and countryside are good. Enjoy your piss-rancid gutters, you city trash gl sucking a feeling of societal cohesion out of a fent patch while trying to decide between Chili’s and The Good Chili’s for dinner, peckerwood
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Mar 24, 2018 21:03
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Junkiebev posted:gl sucking a feeling of societal cohesion out of a fent patch while trying to decide between Chili’s and The Good Chili’s for dinner, peckerwood good luck drowning bitch
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Mar 24, 2018 21:17
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zeal posted:the cool thing about cities is that most of the big ones will be waterlogged sepulchers in a matter of years flying cars? howabout submarines? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmUmOu7uToQ
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Mar 24, 2018 21:32
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zeal posted:good luck drowning bitch im in chicago you scrubtier 
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Mar 24, 2018 21:37
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Junkiebev posted:im in chicago you scrubtier yeah but you have a wife and kid which makes chicago way less fun
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Mar 24, 2018 21:42
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Junkiebev posted:im in chicago you scrubtier oh, so you'll just be cannibalized by your neighbors or forced to become an agricultural slave after the ten thousand systems that make your demographic sink hole viable collapse
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Mar 24, 2018 21:43
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Accretionist posted:This is a, "why don't poor people just buy more money," answer. Moving long-distance is an impossible cost for many, many Americans. it's not really about the cost of moving, it's about the attachments they have there (such as their mortgage, elderly family who have no reason to move for jobs, etc). plenty of unattached young people are moving out in droves of course, there is a cost problem: the absurd cost of living in cities. rent in a major urban area costs 3-4 times as much as rent in a rural area, but the minimum wage in the city is only double the rural minimum wage, at best. and you get a lot less space for your dollar, which is fine for a young single person but becomes more problematic if you have a family member living with you i'm all for urbanization, but many big cities are already experiencing housing problems, and those desperately need solving if we want to increase migration to urban areas
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Mar 24, 2018 21:56
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what are the cities america should aspire to? garbage islands like nyc or sf? lol
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Mar 24, 2018 21:56
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LinYutang posted:what are the cities america should aspire to? garbage islands like nyc or sf? lol peoria is perfect. all cities should be like peoria
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Mar 24, 2018 21:57
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mastershakeman posted:peoria is perfect. all cities should be like peoria St. Charles, the Heart of DuPage County
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Mar 24, 2018 22:08
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LinYutang posted:what are the cities america should aspire to? garbage islands like nyc or sf? lol Houston Texas
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Mar 24, 2018 22:26
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rudatron posted:Basically all the power plants are coal fired, and you need a car to get anywhere, and anywhere in Australia is always really far apart Also a huge coal mining industry for export to China, plus a decent oil and gas sector. These factors get translated into an abstract "Australian lifestyle" because everyone's a lib now. Thug Lessons has issued a correction as of 22:41 on Mar 24, 2018 |
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Mar 24, 2018 22:38
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:my dude you literally believe in shipping everyone into megacities lol Sounds like a good idea. David Dees sketches our ideal future.  
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Mar 24, 2018 22:40
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the bitcoin of weed posted:there are two empty investor-owned homes for every homeless person in america Go to any real estate investors association and you'll see exactly first-hand everything WRONG with modern real estate practices, and why you can't afford to buy a house, and why your rents to drat high. Boomers socked up on cheap wine and HGTV reruns all jerking each other off about flipping their next house and charging way more than what it's worth. The housing market is about to crash again once they realize no millennial can afford to buy their lovely remodeled houses. The last one I was at they talked about how technology was going to revolutionize the housing market, yet couldn't understand why younger buyers were becoming scarcer. Ugh.
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Mar 24, 2018 23:53
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mastershakeman posted:yeah but you have a wife and kid which makes chicago way less fun TruFaxStated
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Mar 25, 2018 00:05
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Main Paineframe posted:it's not really about the cost of moving, In general, I agree. But I think there's enough people in the 'would but can't' category in failed towns that it's worth doing. Take my extended family for example. One wing of my family is marooned in defunct farming towns in the lower great plains. Most are in the 'won't' category you described. Some would leave if they could. Some did leave because the entire family pooled resources to get them out. And those that did send very importance remittances back home. Mobility gives people options. Now, I don't know how you'd go about doing something here. But I think it could help a lot of people who don't currently have any options. As for urbanization writ large, yeah, we need a new model and I don't know what that is. I'd love to see one.
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Mar 25, 2018 02:12
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Accretionist posted:In general, I agree. But I think there's enough people in the 'would but can't' category in failed towns that it's worth doing. it's not the moving itself that's expensive it's the insane out-of-control cost of living anywhere near an urban area a studio apartment within 20 miles of Boston costs more than three times as much as a two-bedroom apartment in the Southeast. and some cities are even more expensive than that
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Mar 25, 2018 02:35
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:my dude you literally believe in shipping everyone into megacities lol i mean judge dredd rules
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Mar 25, 2018 02:43
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Main Paineframe posted:it's not the moving itself that's expensive moving itself is also hella expensive my dude im moving in like three weeks from the burbs outside syracuse into the city proper and im looking at like 1500 before i even factor in electric and cable and the cost of renting a moving van to load furniture in for a day and thats after i split it with someone and im only moving like fifteen miles, max, to a place thats only slightly more expensive per month than where we are now, i cant imagine what it would be like if i wanted to move somewhere totally new where i didnt have a job waiting
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Mar 25, 2018 02:45
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Main Paineframe posted:it's not the moving itself that's expensive It seems like you're to imply, "your issue doesn't exist, there's just nowhere for them to go." I think you need to reevaluate:
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Mar 25, 2018 02:50
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Main Paineframe posted:it's not really about the cost of moving, it's about the attachments they have there (such as their mortgage, elderly family who have no reason to move for jobs, etc). plenty of unattached young people are moving out in droves Rent isn't always that cheap in rural areas, there's plenty of lovely ex-mill towns in the northeast where rent+car is higher than equivalent square footage in Queens or the Bronx. Hell, single-room converted motels here are being listed for $850, 4x that in the same square footage and you're in midtown Manhattan or peninsular SF. And you're definitely overestimating the attachments vs. the cost of moving, in my lived experience and the majority of my peers (or at least taking "my family's here" at face value rather than considering its extremely common implication of "i see them once a year at holidays, but they're a car to borrow or a couch to crash on just in case." Or even and especially "they would be incredibly betrayed by my withdrawal of their safety net, and thus I'm obligated to stay until they're prepared to move too".) Mandoric has issued a correction as of 02:58 on Mar 25, 2018 |
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Mar 25, 2018 02:53
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A big problem with housing in my area, the Twin Cities, is that people who own the kind of houses that typically sell between 200 and 350k don't have enough equity in their houses to justify selling. This means basically all of the houses on the market are either broke as gently caress or teardowns and new construction. There is basically 0 inventory in the midrange, so it is driving up prices of low end housing. Our neighbors have a 2 bed house they bought in 2007 for like 240k. It tanked like a motherfucker and they held on. They finally dragged themselves above water last year, and they want to move because they have two kids now sharing one room, but they don't have enough equity to sell and have enough for a new down payment. There are a million stories like that in my area. After your REALTOR(tm) gets done doing absolutely nothing for 6% of your sale price, you have to loving buy back into an insane market that might crater again (and pay your REALTOR(tm) again.)
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Mar 25, 2018 03:15
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i would like lower rent but my state is famous for being expensive everywhere so rip
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Mar 25, 2018 03:18
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logikv9 posted:i would like lower rent but my state is famous for being expensive everywhere so rip im gonna move NJ sucks assssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
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Mar 25, 2018 03:40
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logikv9 posted:i would like lower rent but my state is famous for being expensive everywhere so rip different states exist
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Mar 25, 2018 03:43
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