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There's a couple of other things I'd like to consider about Oshiro. The story of Celeste is a classic hero's journey. Madeline has heard the Call to Adventure (gotta climb that mountain), Met the Mentor (Theo is remarkably good at dealing with her very problems), Crossed the First Threshold (literally, through a mirror) and Refused the Call (in a violent argument with herself). In chapter 3, Oshiro presents Temptation. He is the one thing in the story that lures Madeline away from her quest. Did you notice he actually did manage to get her to stay at the hotel? Not as a guest, but she might well still be there if her shadow hadn't forced the issue. She just couldn't say no to him, even when he wasn't asking anything of her. It's an interesting contrast to the usual depictions of temptation in these kinds of stories - usually the hero is tempted by beauty, or wealth, or fame or glory. Madeline just wanted the satisfaction of helping someone else - which is still a pale shadow of what she's really looking for. The other thing is Oshiro's grief. That's at the heart of his problem - he lost something crucially important to him and wasn't able to let go. We see him flit through Denial, Depression, Bargaining and Anger... only to loop round again and never achieve Acceptance. What interests me is the Depression stage, when you're in the big mess. Oshiro stops pretending the hotel is functional and stops trying to convince Madeline to stay, brought low as he was by the state the place has got to. And I think it's no accident that this is the point that Theo offers her a way out; it's the perfect opportunity for her to escape, but Madeline chooses not to. She chooses to help him instead. She was never asked, and indeed Oshiro didn't appreciate it either. Unrelated to Oshiro, there's a lot of neat visual flair that can be easy to miss. Have you noticed the screen transitions are different in each chapter? This one is more obvious, with it being a lock on a door. And have you noticed each character is referred to with their own text colour? Any time someone says "Madeline", it's in red, "Theo" is orange, "Oshiro" is green - even when not referring directly by name (eg "Creepy Old Dude"). Even Badeline gets her own text colour, where all the "part of me" etc is in purple. And the Mountain is in blue.
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Apr 4, 2018 20:00
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The mountain is a very important character.
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Apr 4, 2018 21:43
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Lazy Bear posted:The mountain is a very important character. She's the final boss we're trying to defeat. It's totally a girl mountain, right? Of course Madeline ist also trying to fight herself, which might bei even harder.
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Apr 4, 2018 21:51
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Eh, I've been Oshiro in the past and I also just got out of a relationship with someone who was Oshiro. When I got to this point in the game, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping for Oshiro to get better. But then I wasn't surprised at the twist either. Sucks to be him but also gently caress that guy. Ramos fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Apr 4, 2018 |
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Apr 4, 2018 22:19
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Ramos posted:Sucks to be him but also gently caress that guy. Yeah, that about sums it up, I think.
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Apr 4, 2018 22:21
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The thing about Oshiro is that is clearly a drawing of Justin McElroy.
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Apr 4, 2018 23:46
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Oshiro is a dang ghost. Ghosts are assholes
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Apr 5, 2018 01:03
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Odd posted:Oshiro is a dang ghost. Ghosts are assholes Preach. cant cook creole bream posted:She's the final boss we're trying to defeat. It's totally a girl mountain, right? I mean, not to be a horrible misogynist and assume genders and shiz, but her name is Celeste. Makes for a compelling case.
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Apr 5, 2018 02:09
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Not sure how many people watched it when I posted it alongside the chapter 2 video but in his GDC talk from before the game's release Matt Thorson said that he wanted the player to get fed up with Oshiro's crap as Madeline does the same. He's written to be pitiable, to annoy and upset you and eventually push you to the point where you want to tell him to screw himself The talk is mostly about level design rather than the narrative but it's interesting all around. In case you missed it https://youtu.be/4RlpMhBKNr0
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Apr 5, 2018 02:10
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Oh yeah, I meant to thank you for linking that. It was an interesting talk! In particular I found it amusing how in this game where dying is meant to be as encouraging as possible the devs still set up intentional deathtraps in order to teach you about game mechanics (The specific example given was a traffic light positioned to hurl you into spikes, to teach you about momentum transfer).
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Apr 5, 2018 02:38
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Y'all're forgetting the most important thing here, which is that Celeste is the mountain. Madeline is the woman. I think Celeste is a cool guy eh, climbs mountains and isn't afraid of anything.  I also accidentally misnamed Oshiro and I kind of wanna fix it, but since the wrong version was already quoted I have to live with it. 
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Apr 5, 2018 03:56
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Was not expecting literary analysis in here but hey okay.dotchan posted:I think Celeste is a cool guy eh, climbs mountains and FTFY. Don't ruin classics. 
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Apr 5, 2018 20:57
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   Today's chapter 4 is quite a change of pace from the busy chapter 3. Time for some peace and quiet.
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Apr 6, 2018 17:44
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You missed some dialogue with the old lady at the start of the level - she talks a bit more about Oshiro and herself. It feels a little friendlier, since Madeline has been a bit of a grouch with her otherwise. (Not that the old lady was particularly friendly herself. She knows people don't come to the mountain looking for sympathy). She still never introduces herself. The Steam trading cards call her Granny. I'm not a fan of the blue heart puzzle in this chapter, personally. Partly it's that I never played Super Mario Bros 3 - that game came out before I was born, I never grew up playing Nintendo consoles, it just passed me by. So I had no idea what the white block was referencing. But on a more philosophical level, in a game with the whole theme of "you can do this" pushing you forward, having a puzzle that certain sections of the playerbase simply cannot do without giving up and looking up the solution doesn't sit right with me, even for an optional challenge. Every other puzzle in the game can be solved with the tools available in the game. No one's going to duck on the weird block for several seconds if they don't know that's what you do with it. If it had to be a Mario Bros reference I think it would have been better to go for the famous warp zone trick from the original Super Mario Bros, since jumping up out of the frame is something a player might try to do if they see there's no ceiling there. Also Theo is a goddamn hero. I wonder if the feather thing actually works.
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Apr 6, 2018 18:31
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Tenebrais posted:
Well, obviously you can't generalize panic attacks, since some stuff will just work better on some people than others. But in general that would be a good tactic. It has all the important components. Closing your eyes, focusing on something calm and peaceful and forcing yourself to calm your breath could be helpful. But then again, there might be people who would suddenly imagine that feather to fling around wildly and uncontrollable, which would make the situation somewhat worse.
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Apr 6, 2018 18:46
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Also notice that he picked up on Madeline's growing fears really quickly. Like, as soon as she started getting worried, he tried to redirect her towards taking a selfie. It didn't work, but that's some impressive awareness.
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Apr 6, 2018 18:56
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Also notice that he picked up on Madeline's growing fears really quickly. Like, as soon as she started getting worried, he tried to redirect her towards taking a selfie. It didn't work, but that's some impressive awareness. A growing theme seems to be that Theo actually knows his poo poo when it comes to people with Issues. Oshiro he just left alone. Which sounds like a bad idea, but was the right move since Oshiro didn't want to be helped. Not really. Madeline seems to have that monkey on her back, something he notices but doesn't specifically call out. Instead he deflects, and tries to bring her attention to other things. It was working too! Never played this game, but I really like it. To watch, wouldn't play it as I suck at platformers like this.
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Apr 7, 2018 01:52
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cant cook creole bream posted:Well, obviously you can't generalize panic attacks, since some stuff will just work better on some people than others. The feather actually does go a bit out of control if it leaves the breathing rectangle but the game doesn't really seem to punish you if that happens. It happened briefly in the video even. I know people who suffer from anxiety and have witnessed panic attacks in seemingly harmless situations that just happen to be severely stressful for them due to stuff such as phobias or bad memories and Madelines behavior seems spot on. Of course things like these can be completely different for other people and situations but that scene at the end struck pretty close due to knowing multiple people with similar issues.
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Apr 7, 2018 02:21
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Does the game have an actual scoring system or are the 1000s when you pick up a strawberry just a design choice? If it is a design choice, it's pretty cool that they were thoughtful enough to have it add and show 2000 when you grabbed the two of them on the one screen.
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Apr 7, 2018 05:24
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NinetySevenA posted:Does the game have an actual scoring system or are the 1000s when you pick up a strawberry just a design choice? There's no score beyond collection percentage and level times.
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Apr 7, 2018 05:53
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NinetySevenA posted:Does the game have an actual scoring system or are the 1000s when you pick up a strawberry just a design choice? It's actually slightly different. The first strawberry gives you 1000 points and the second one 2000. And there's actually a reason for that. It's nothing mayor, but it's silly and fun, so I wont spoil it.
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Apr 7, 2018 09:08
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Also notice that he picked up on Madeline's growing fears really quickly. Like, as soon as she started getting worried, he tried to redirect her towards taking a selfie. It didn't work, but that's some impressive awareness. Maybe he's had experience with anxiety himself. I mean, he did say he learnt it from his grandfather; maybe he was taught it because he had panic attacks too.
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Apr 7, 2018 12:39
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I think Madeline is dead and none this is actually real.
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Apr 7, 2018 15:58
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Maybe the whole thing is actually a video game.
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Apr 7, 2018 17:58
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The magic of the Mountain is actually the developer console I assume you all spotted Badeline on the gondola when it stalled out. Notice it stopped a little while after Madeline started panicking, and started again a little while after she calmed down. Badeline is her reflection in a lot of ways. Following up with the hero's journey stuff I mentioned earlier: the Golden Ridge is the Road of Trials, where the hero proves their worth in tests of skill and spirit. After how heavy with dialogue and character chapter 3 was, chapter 4 is just Maddie against the mountain: no gimmicks (in story terms, at least), just a pure test of her ability to climb. The gondola section is the Meeting with the Goddess, where the hero is given boons by a sympathetic figure. In this case the floating feather is Madeline's boon, which we will see means more to her than just a breathing exercise. In many stories this is a show of love - not necessarily romantic love, as the Goddess is not anywhere close to equal enough terms to the hero for that to work. Love doesn't feature heavily in Celeste but it's fair to say that this is the point where Madeline and Theo become genuine friends. Tenebrais fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Apr 7, 2018 |
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Apr 7, 2018 18:22
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Maybe we've ALL been dead all along.
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Apr 8, 2018 00:59
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I was inspired by the LP to pick up a copy of the game. I'm really impressed at how they managed to make a game this difficult feel fun to play. I also apparently value those strawberries very highly, based on the amount of time and effort I'm willing to spend collecting some of them.
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Apr 9, 2018 03:32
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Should I have a "copies sold" counter in the OP? I think it's 2 or 3 at this point. Not as legendary as the Super Mario 3D World LP selling moving consoles but still.
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Apr 9, 2018 18:12
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 With Chapter 5 Celeste mixes it up yet again by making the level feel completely different from all the ones before it.
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Apr 9, 2018 23:30
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I have nothing to say about this video, except the following: LIKE A BOSS.
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Apr 10, 2018 02:03
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Those "strawberry seeds" are giving me Demon's Crest flashbacks. Their sprite looks very similar to the titular Crests that give Firebrand his powers, especially the Earth Crest.
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Apr 10, 2018 02:07
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Man, you just rolled on through that escort section like it was nothing. I died a lot there. And the worst of it was? I spent a few dozen deaths trying to get that strawberry during the escort section, finally managed to get the gate open, and then an exploding/reviving eyeball monster (which I'd been using as an ersatz springboard to get enough height to toss Theo into the gate button) tossed me and Theo through the door to the next area.  And like you said, there's no backtracking during that section, so I had to replay the entire escort sequence to get that one strawberry. Oh well.We get some interesting insight into Madeline and Badeline here. Badeline says that she has to play babysitter all the time, looking out for Madeline's welfare. Madeline, meanwhile, seems to have a lot of inner demons that don't wish her well at all. Notice also Madeline's reaction to Badeline saying that she couldn't climb the mountain. From a quivering wreck to indignant and angry in no time flat. EDIT: vvv huh, okay. Never mind then. TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Apr 10, 2018 |
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Apr 10, 2018 02:17
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:
It's actually just the OST version reversed (mirrored, if you will) with no additional editing. The only thing I did was to make sure the music was loud enough so the whisper could be easily heard.
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Apr 10, 2018 02:54
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Lazy Bear posted:
I admit, I also found this expression pretty hilarious. It's a bit strange though how there's such a dissonance between Madeline being so unsure of herself but also capable of superhuman feats such as scaling a vertical wall without equipment while also carrying someone who's one and a half times bigger then herself. But that's a concession you need to make for the video game to really work.
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Apr 10, 2018 14:09
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But isn't that the point? That Madeline is literally stronger and more capable than she thinks she is?
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Apr 10, 2018 14:39
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That's something that comes up in epic fiction, superheroes, action movies, etc all the time. It's less about whether or not the character can overcome the obstacle, we as an audience know the hero can by the end of the day, it's more about that character coming to obtain whatever he or she needs to reach that point. In this case with Madeline, it's self confidence and that inner peace. Also, yeah, don't look too closely, I wish I could midair dash too.
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Apr 10, 2018 15:01
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I just finished the this game['s story] and this LP is making me realise how bad I am at it.
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Apr 10, 2018 15:51
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I'm pretty sure the mountain being literally magical has something to do with it. It seems like force of will is more important there than muscles.
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Apr 10, 2018 16:23
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Well, it was skirting magical realism for a while until the game flat out said, "This temple is actually magic!" edit: By the way, there's a new 100% world record for the game. Naturally, spoilers ahoy but here's a link if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO7wSJKOcgU Ramos fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 10, 2018 |
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Apr 10, 2018 17:10
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This LP is really excellent, I'm still enjoying it. Even if watching you do this does make me feel very inadequate as a player. (I also don't think I'd have found some of the secrets if you hadn't shown them, in particular the first two crystal hearts...) Thanks in particular for showing the reversed music secret here, I'd vaguely heard something about that but had no idea what it actually was. In case anyone is interested in an update, I've now finished the main story of the game. I'm still missing two crystal hearts and four strawberries (one that I know the location of but can't figure out, the others I just can't find). I also need to go back and do full clears to get the stars, I didn't realise the game tracked that at first. I still can't decide whether I want to attempt the B-sides or not, I found the main game frustrating enough (I did get through the B-side for the first stage but that's the only one I've attempted so far) and I'm not sure I want to put myself through more of them. I think I have a lot of things to say about the story, too, I really like how they did it even if it didn't go quite where I was expecting (and even though the surrealist magical-realism aspects of the later parts of the game, such as we've started to see from the hotel level and now the Mirror Temple, invalidate a lot of what I had been praising the 'Old Site' dream sequence for at first). But I'll wait to discuss story elements more until you've gotten to them in the LP. There are a lot of moments where I do really enjoy this game, and more than I expected to. It's definitely grown on me a lot since my first impression, and I don't think I'm sorry I bought it. (At times I do catch myself wondering if I actually like it or if it's some kind of twisted justification-of-effort, Stockholm syndome-esque phenomenon where I'm convincing myself I must enjoy it if I'm putting in all this work...) One thing I'm definitely noticing, though, is that in some ways the controls are holding me back. I'm playing on Nintendo Switch and I've noticed the D-pad's position feels uncomfortable to me, so I end up using the analog stick, but that makes it really easy to put in the wrong input (I screw up a lot by doing diagonal dashes when I want horizontal and vice versa), and changing my dash direction too dramatically feels very awkward. This could easily also just be me being bad at games, but a lot of the time I really feel like I'm fighting the controller. Out of curiosity, Iggy, do you mind telling us what you're playing this on and what kind of control setup you use?
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Apr 10, 2018 18:02
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