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In the conversation with Theo at the beginning of the last video, when he says, "Oh, I know what it's like to have a soul-crushing job," she responds with, "No, work is okay." Theo, without previous conversational cues, assumes that she is a working adult, which implies that in-universe, she looks old enough to be one. And she doesn't correct him with "No, I'm still in school," or something like that, which implies that his assumption was correct. Early to mid twenties seems reasonable to me.
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Apr 14, 2018 14:04
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I put her at late 20s/early 30s. Old enough for the weight of life to come crushing down but young enough to be stupid enough to climb a mountain.
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Apr 14, 2018 16:07
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I mean, Mount Celeste is only 2041 meters high with a prominence of 589 meters. I'm reasonably sure that would be doable for an average person. That pesky mountain magic complicates things.
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Apr 14, 2018 16:31
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Waltzing Along posted:I put her at late 20s/early 30s. Old enough for the weight of life to come crushing down but young enough to be stupid enough to climb a mountain. That and considering the general aesthetic choices of the game (tape cassettes as a collectable, Super Nintendo-style graphics and the reference to Mario Bros 3) that would put her in the age group where those things would be part of their childhood.
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Apr 14, 2018 16:50
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This chapter is why I prefer to think of her as Gotheline instead of Badeline. Also Madeline in general hits very close to home for me, and the whole story, except Madeline is more capable and determined than I am.
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Apr 14, 2018 19:23
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berryjon posted:That's one. Anything else? Yomawari: Midnight Shadows has one. It's also trying to impale you at the same time, so that's fun.
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Apr 14, 2018 19:59
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Basically every boss in the second Trails in the Sky consists of hitting someone with a stick until they stay still long enough for a hug.
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Apr 14, 2018 21:55
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You guys see conflict resolution via hugging it out, I see Friendship via Superior Firepower.
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Apr 15, 2018 01:13
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Why is Badeline worried about climbing a mountain? She can fly! Or is she just standing on top of a heap of nothing, afraid to look down?
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Apr 15, 2018 07:57
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Glazius posted:Why is Badeline worried about climbing a mountain? She can fly!
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Apr 15, 2018 09:10
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cant cook creole bream posted:I mean, Mount Celeste is only 2041 meters high with a prominence of 589 meters. I'm reasonably sure that would be doable for an average person. That pesky mountain magic complicates things. Given that the mountain is called out by characters in-game as being dangerous -- but generally doable -- for an amateur mountain climber, and given the presence of characters' occasional reactions to the mountain climbing sequences as if they were dangerous but not otherwise especially strange (the parts that involve overt supernatural elements consistently are, but not the platforming), I like to believe that this is just what mountain climbing entails in this universe. In Madeline's version of reality, Sherpa guides on Mount Everest are expected to be able to run directly up sheer vertical surfaces for at least ten stories at a time, fling themselves horizontally over fifty meters from a standing start and then land on safe spots the size of a dinner plate, and reliably perform hyperextended-walljumps off of falling rocks no larger than your fist, all while carrying another person on their back. Mortality rates are pretty high, but on the bright side they get to keep all the fruit they collect on their way up, and collectible mountain fruit is remarkably delicious!
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Apr 15, 2018 11:01
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One of my favorite things about the story of this game is how chill everyone is about all the supernatural stuff that's going on. Theo especially. I can imagine his conversations with his sister afterwards. "I ran into a vengeful ghost who was running an abandoned hotel filled with physical manifestations of his negative emotions and my friend was roped into putting away floating piles of laundry." "Weren't you scared?" "Why? I mean, it's just laundry."
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Apr 15, 2018 11:52
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Iny posted:Given that the mountain is called out by characters in-game as being dangerous -- but generally doable -- for an amateur mountain climber, and given the presence of characters' occasional reactions to the mountain climbing sequences as if they were dangerous but not otherwise especially strange (the parts that involve overt supernatural elements consistently are, but not the platforming), I like to believe that this is just what mountain climbing entails in this universe. The mortality rates are artificially inflated because everyone's dying multiple times.
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Apr 15, 2018 15:59
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ultrafilter posted:The mortality rates are artificially inflated because everyone's dying multiple times. You can't see it because of the low-resolution graphics, but the monument at the end of chapter 1 is carved with letters that are only about a millimeter high. Also that's only the top of the monument; like a moai statue, most of it is buried underground.
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Apr 15, 2018 17:56
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   So you like our dude Theo? His InstaPix is TheoUnderStars. Look him up! If you wanna see something real crazy watch a TAS! Here's Celeste in 25:41.747 In case you want to see the stawberry pie reactions for getting less than 170 strawberries some guy called Git Gud has made a video featuring them all Kotaku have released an interview with Matt Thorson in which he talks about what Celeste's story means to him and how it relates to his own experiences. Stats so far:  
IGgy IGsen fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Apr 17, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 22:29
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there is some skipping between 6:58 and 7:10 Edit: again at 16:19 though 16: 25 Double EDIT: finally done I apreicate this game and I thank you for bringing to my attention and doing such a fine job showcasing it. Though I am kind of sad the story is over. cokerpilot fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 23:07
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cokerpilot posted:there is some skipping between 6:58 and 7:10 I know. There is no way I can fix that unfortunately. And I don't know what caused it. I actually considered playing through the entire game again just so I could collect red strawberries instead of the blue, already collected ones. But in the end I decided that that's not worth it and red strawberries are more important than some video skipping. These are my priorities.
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Apr 16, 2018 23:33
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IGgy IGsen posted:I know. There is no way I can fix that unfortunately. And I don't know what caused it. Understandable some of those looked downright painful to get.
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Apr 16, 2018 23:52
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Saying the Summit is the best level kind of feels like cheating for the choice - it's got all of the levels in it, after all. But even without that, it really is the best level. This is the Magic Flight, where the hero demonstrates their mastery over the world that they earned on their journey. Sometimes to defeat the villain, sometimes to flee, or maybe just to reach the end. It's an amazing step in a video game, because you get to feel all that empowerment yourself. The double-dash is thrilling to use, and I'm glad this chapter revisits the previous ones, because it changes up all of their gimmicks. None more so than the dream blocks, I think. With the double dash you can chain them much better, since you can dash in the air once while still saving a dash to enter the next block. So you get some fantastic sequences that feel like you're flying through the maps. Chapter 2 is fun, but chapter 7.2 does it so much better. And then, after climbing your way back up the mountain in record time, you reach the actual summit section. The pacing in the music is genius - the Golden Ridge section toned down the theme (similar to how the Golden Ridge music is) then the Mirror Temple section reduced it further to just the chords. And then, for the home stretch, the intro music starts up again, and then the full theme bursts to life, with a heavy drum beat and uplifting synths and god damnit I've never heard more encouraging game music in my life! And the game is counting down the checkpoints, and you're moving consistently upwards with each one, then you reach the final four and the binoculars that let you look ahead not just through this challenge but all the way to the top, which is an excellent way of conveying "the end is in sight" in a 2D view. It's funny, really. You reach the top, the culmination of your entire journey, and what's there is... a flag. Madeline stands at the top and has a brief conversation with herself. Then the credits roll. There's no fanfare, no fireworks, no visceral reward for you waiting at the top. There doesn't have to be. Just like climbing a real mountain, the destination has nothing to do with it - your prize for reaching the summit is to have succeeded in getting there. Look at how far we've come. In the final stage of the hero's journey, they return from the magical world to the life they lived before. But they will be forever changed by their experience. The final step is Freedom To Live, where the hero, even if their life hasn't materially changed, has cast off the struggles that drove them to seek adventure in the first place. Perhaps they found peace, or liberty, or wisdom or love. Madeline arguably found all four. She hasn't left depression behind yet - even when they're supporting each other, Badeline is still negative by nature, waiting for things to go wrong, holding grudges, questioning her capability. But they've learned to trust each other more. Badeline gives her support despite her reservations. Madeline forgives that side of her, and realises how it is still able to help. Her future is so much brighter than when she took her first steps on the trail. Oh, if you didn't click the link to Theo's Instagram in Iggy's post, do it! There's a bunch of extra art not in the game for other things Theo took pictures of. You can see his sister, and Granny's sick gamer chair. 
Tenebrais fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Apr 17, 2018 |
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Apr 17, 2018 00:16
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In time for the end of the main Story Kotaku have released an interview in which Matt Thorson talks about what Celeste and its story means to him https://kotaku.com/celeste-taught-fans-and-its-own-creator-to-take-better-1825305692 It's a nice read.
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Apr 17, 2018 00:51
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The Summit is a masterpiece. Unlike pretty much every other game climax I can think of, it's emotionally a victory lap. The music is triumphant and encouraging. Madeline's posture is straighter now that she's not weighed down by her backpack any more. There's still interpersonal conflict (or well, I guess, intrapersonal conflict), but Madeline's not just talking about it instead of trying to run away; she's also listening. In the post-Temple section, after she says that she'd be OK with failing to reach the summit and is just glad she's making the attempt, the level starts off with that intense downward wind, as if to test her resolve. And then once she makes it through that, there's the upwards wind, which more than anything else in the game made me feel like the game really wanted Madeline to succeed. At the epilogue, if you head right from the starting screen, there's a screen with a big nest and the multicolored birds from chapter 1, which fly away when you get close. Celeste is never very subtle about its symbolism, and this is especially blatant. This is only the beginning for Madeline.
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Apr 17, 2018 02:00
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IGgy IGsen posted:If you wanna see something real crazy watch a TAS! Here's Celeste in 25:41.747 I was going to link this, but now I don't have to. It's a great TAS though! It's not using any major game breaking glitches so a lot of it is standard "hit the perfect corner pixel every time" replay stuff, but there's lots to appreciate in the ridiculous routing through some stages, the sheer speed they accumulate through bunnyhopping, etc. It's also, y'know, not very long, because TAS.
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Apr 17, 2018 02:38
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I'll be honest, this LP caused me to buy the game myself... and much more importantly, finish the climb essentially an hour before the chapter 7 video was posted. Completely worth the effort in the end, though I did end up missing many a strawberry... I'll probably be going back for those. The game's message is, as many say, wonderful. And to think that there's still so much more for me to climb in it, too.
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Apr 17, 2018 05:24
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It's nice how at the end of the summit there's something that approaches a legitimate climbing challenge. Verticality has previously been more a question of landing safely, so it's a welcome change of pace to revisit the climbing mechanics they introduced back in the first level.
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Apr 17, 2018 05:50
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Enjoyed the game and the LP so far, but count me as one of the people who thinks the way it represents "healing" like that is really not helpful. Silver bullets, or thinking that once you have a breakthrough you're mostly done, or that after a breakthrough your progress accelerates, none of these things help with keeping the progress going. This sort of thing isn't healed, it's treated continuously with a good deal of constant effort. The effort doesn't lessen, you just become more used to doing it. But especially after having some success, the important thing is to keep going just as much and not become complacent. However if you try to combine that with a story arc it's a recipe for a frustrating story, so I'm not surprised they did it like this.
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Apr 17, 2018 08:30
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It's a nice bit of attention to detail that the Mirror Temple doesn't have those demons in it any more.
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Apr 17, 2018 08:37
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Celeste is a masterpiece of level pacing. I don't think I've ever seen another game that does this good a job with every single stage. Even Chapter 3.
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Apr 17, 2018 16:09
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I appreciate you mentioning the criticism that the game makes the resolution look too easy, because I did catch myself thinking that a few times myself, and had been planning to say something about it. I'm not completely sure where my views are on this yet, personally - I think it may depend somewhat on whether you incorporate the player's frustration and work at completing the game into Madeline's struggle as a character, or view them as separate things. But regardless, the resolution ended up ringing a little hollow to me in a way that the game's depiction of the struggle itself didn't. (Some of it might also come from leaning in a bit too hard on the metaphor: people can't actually reconcile with their inner detractor-voices with hugs, for obvious reasons.) I'm not sure, I think I'm still processing it. That said, don't take that to mean I dislike the game; it still handles this in a much more sensitive and interesting way than I've ever seen before. And there may well be people whose experience this is more consistent with. There is also, of course, the fact that at the summit there is literally just a flag, and after a moment Madeline starts climbing back down. It wasn't about the destination, it was about the journey and the destination doesn't matter. I don't think a lot of games are willing to say that so openly. Also, thanks for linking the interview.
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Apr 17, 2018 18:12
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Glazius posted:It's nice how at the end of the summit there's something that approaches a legitimate climbing challenge. Verticality has previously been more a question of landing safely, so it's a welcome change of pace to revisit the climbing mechanics they introduced back in the first level. The best part is going back to the first level and discovering just how much easier it's gotten. As you climb, you learn. Explopyro posted:I appreciate you mentioning the criticism that the game makes the resolution look too easy, because I did catch myself thinking that a few times myself, and had been planning to say something about it. I'm not completely sure where my views are on this yet, personally - I think it may depend somewhat on whether you incorporate the player's frustration and work at completing the game into Madeline's struggle as a character, or view them as separate things. But regardless, the resolution ended up ringing a little hollow to me in a way that the game's depiction of the struggle itself didn't. (Some of it might also come from leaning in a bit too hard on the metaphor: people can't actually reconcile with their inner detractor-voices with hugs, for obvious reasons.) I'm not sure, I think I'm still processing it. I think it works a lot better if you're playing the game than if you're just watching it. Your first playthrough is going to be considerably slower than what's being shown here, and that has the effect of making Madeline's development seem less rushed.
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Apr 18, 2018 02:03
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I liked the game a lot until the last two levels. Didn't like those at all. Looking forward to the bonus content.
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Apr 18, 2018 06:20
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ultrafilter posted:I think it works a lot better if you're playing the game than if you're just watching it. Your first playthrough is going to be considerably slower than what's being shown here, and that has the effect of making Madeline's development seem less rushed. Sorry if it wasn't clear from what I said, but I'm one of the people who was playing along with the thread and I was basing that opinion on having played it myself (and definitely struggled plenty, I think I had 4000 deaths or so when I got to this point). The resolution still felt at least somewhat facile to me despite that. I think the turnaround whiplash would undoubtedly be more pronounced for someone who is only watching cutscenes and skilled gameplay; the question I was trying to ask is how much of that emotional reaction on the player's part should be considered part of the characterisation. That said, to some degree this feels like a minor quibble, because the way the game is structured both in terms of level design, art style and music really does work well to convey the narrative it's trying to. There's an extent to which pacing it differently might have helped somewhat, but I'm not sure it would've been enough; I'm almost wondering if ending it without a concrete resolution (maybe leaving it uncertain whether Madeline reaches the summit or not, and just ending with her continuing to climb?) would've rung truer to people, but that doesn't work nearly as well in narrative terms to end the story... I'll stop talking for a bit, I feel like I'm taking up more than my fair share of the thread.
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Apr 18, 2018 06:51
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I forgot if you mentioned it, but what does the red skull mean?
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Apr 18, 2018 07:27
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Mraagvpeine posted:I forgot if you mentioned it, but what does the red skull mean? It counts deaths during B-Sides.
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Apr 18, 2018 09:34
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Red Mike posted:Enjoyed the game and the LP so far, but count me as one of the people who thinks the way it represents "healing" like that is really not helpful. I don't know, there's more than one kind of depression. I agree that for a lot of people dealing with it is a constant struggle, and overcoming it doesn't get any easier as time goes on, but that's not true for everyone who suffers. Celeste resonated with me because it felt a lot like my own experience with depression. In my case my depression was triggered by a combination of external factors and my own outlook on life. I began to recover from it when I started cutting those external factors out and identified through introspection why I was putting myself through that stuff in the first place. I might not have had a conversation with my inner goth like Madeline, but that's not actually too far off, metaphorically, from what turned me around. My depression's been gone for about 7 years now. It's not like I don't have to put any effort into staying free of it, but now that I know what causes it, it really does take significantly less effort. I can feel when it's close, but I know how to pull out of the spiral, and it's every few years now instead of a constant pressure.
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Apr 18, 2018 10:33
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I think it also depends how you see the end of the story, in terms of how much of a 'solution' Maddie has actually reached. Personally, it felt pretty true to me, because she doesn't banish her depression or her negative thinking, she just learns a different way of 'communicating' with it, like a coping strategy. The dark Part of Her even points out that things are going to be hard and scary moving forward, and Maddie agrees, but she feels more able to deal with it now. I don't see this as her finding a fix for her depression, just realising that maybe there are things she can do to make things feel more managable. Which is pretty similar to my own experiences with depression: I'm chronic, so it's never going to go away or stop happening, but in the past few years I've started to relate to my feelings differently, and cope better with my own behaviour, and it's made a huge difference in how capable I feel to deal with the depression as a whole. I didn't have a Badaline (Badabob? It doesn't work nearly as well with my name) to hug, but in a way, I did have that frank discussion with myself. But yeah, everyone experiences depression differently, so obviously your mileage may vary, but I think that's part of what makes this story work, as a whole. It's obviously very personal to the writer, and even if parts of it don't ring true to your own experience, I think a lot of it still feels genuine in a way some stories about mental illness don't.
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Apr 18, 2018 11:38
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Reveilled posted:I don't know, there's more than one kind of depression. I agree that for a lot of people dealing with it is a constant struggle, and overcoming it doesn't get any easier as time goes on, but that's not true for everyone who suffers. Yeah, I basically agree with what you're saying. I just don't feel like it communicated the continued effort in any way. It still seems like the silver bullet, "I'm healed!", resolution, even if with a couple false starts added in. I know plenty of people who think that's exactly how it works, and that after some number of breakthroughs, that's it, you're cured. And as far as I'm aware, that's never the case. One of the most important things is being vigilant and putting in however much effort you need to pull yourself out before you go sink back below the surface, for pretty much the rest of your life. It feels easier, the longer you do it, but that doesn't mean you can't do it again if you get complacent. And more importantly, if it does happen (and it might), you need to be able to recognise it and push through to get yourself back up again. Being told (by yourself or others) "you're cured now so it's OK" just makes this more likely to happen and compounds the issue when it goes wrong. The sort of ideas that I could see having to be represented in an accurate version would be more false starts, more false breakthroughs, or mis-steps where despite the resolution there's a lull where the situation goes back to the start. And the struggle (even if different or smaller) to rise back up and regain control. Something like: Seeing Mad and Bad working better together, but then suddenly having an argument and nearly ripping apart, then needing to have another struggle to re-establish communication. Or just seeing the monsters come back and some semblance of aggression between the two, until Mad has another event/interaction/realisation and stops it from getting worse. Those are the things people don't talk about, and don't really want to think about in real life (even during their own treatment). Because most ways to describe it sound like it's a knife's edge, even if instead it's the same mountain peak you climbed that you might fall off from, but... you've still got the set of tools you've built up the first time to try and climb it. You sharpen your grappling hooks/whatever and force/will yourself to get back climbing. I do realise though that it's really drat difficult to represent that and still have a good story/game, so this is no fault of the game at all. It's more a fault of how we perceive well-told stories (in specific arcs) and how we perceive illness.
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Apr 18, 2018 13:45
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GirlCalledBob posted:I think it also depends how you see the end of the story, in terms of how much of a 'solution' Maddie has actually reached. Personally, it felt pretty true to me, because she doesn't banish her depression or her negative thinking, she just learns a different way of 'communicating' with it, like a coping strategy. The dark Part of Her even points out that things are going to be hard and scary moving forward, and Maddie agrees, but she feels more able to deal with it now. I don't see this as her finding a fix for her depression, just realising that maybe there are things she can do to make things feel more managable. Yeah, this was my interpretation as well. In a sense, the game did a fakeout on Madeline: she thought that climbing the mountain was "figuring out how to not be depressed any more" (how to get away from the negative thoughts and emotions she's been struggling with), but it was actually "learning to live and cope with depression". Madeline isn't healed, but she's in a much better place now that she understands her injuries. Under that lens, the chapters work out as: 1) Making the decision to try to fix your problems 2) Running away from your problems 3) Taking a look at someone else who has problems 4) Learning a coping mechanism for your problems (the feather) 5) Getting a deep look at your problems 6) Understanding and accepting your problems 7) Accomplishing something great even though you have problems 8) Something related but we haven't seen that chapter yet
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Apr 18, 2018 15:59
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It's worth noting we're not even half way through the game at this point. The story is finished, but we've got another chapter to go, then all the B-sides, and even that's not the end of it. Madeline got her big breakthrough that makes a satisfying story, but if you as a player keep putting in the effort, she's going to keep climbing that mountain.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:00
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Tenebrais posted:It's worth noting we're not even half way through the game at this point. The story is finished, but we've got another chapter to go, then all the B-sides, and even that's not the end of it. Madeline got her big breakthrough that makes a satisfying story, but if you as a player keep putting in the effort, she's going to keep climbing that mountain. It's almost as if the struggle doesn't just stop once you hit your big goal.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:16
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I do enjoy that last stage, where Madeline just goes "gently caress this, we're climbing this bitch now  " The displays saying your height, or those markers at the final screen counting down were pretty intense.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:42
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