The Project Management Thread: it cost more than I thought it would.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Project Management Thread: it cost more than I thought it would.

«‹›2 »

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Can I hang out in this thread if I don't have any formal PM title, but have taken half a certificate program on it and gotten real good at managing without authority? Because I love it, but figuring out how to get people to do poo poo to move your project forward without having any formal authority over them seems to be the essence of project management.

In fact I'd propose that as the thread title: Bitcoin, Forex, and Candles > The Project Management Thread: Managing without authority.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2018 04:11

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 22:50

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Jedi Knight Luigi posted:

PMPs are viewed with scorn,

What do you mean by this? I'm in chemistry and see a lot of job postings that are "PMP preferred".

# ¿ Jul 31, 2018 00:55

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Silvergun1000 posted:

I just passed my PMP exam today! Really glad to have that behind me.

I totally agree that having your PMP doesn�t say much besides your being able to memorize a textbook, but just like having a degree, it�s a checkbox that�s pretty common when somebody is looking to fill a PM position.

Eh. Given that it takes 2 years of PM experience to even qualify for the certificate, I think it shows a certain dedication to get it.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2018 04:32

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Partycat posted:

Just about every project manager that put PMP in their title or email signature was bad. They seem to treat it as a license to just do whatever they want.

In my experience that includes not following standard practices themselves, and overreaching into the project. The latter I feel comes from PMs being somewhat interested in work they are not qualified for and shouldn�t be part of and now they feel like they can inject themselves.

If there�s one thing I�d like to get from this thread it is how to tell a PM they need to back off and be a PM - they�re not a project technical resource and should not be.

I kinda feel that project management is an add-on skill and not a role by itself, but that's just me. I mean, I'm not a PM, but when I've done PM-type poo poo, I've always had some skin in the game as the technical resource. Likewise, my peers in supply chain have skin in the game when they do PM style projects. Same with our engineering team and plant managers. I imagine it must be tougher to get buy-in from the stakeholders if you're not one too.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2018 02:56

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

D-Pad posted:

It takes 2 years of project experience not PM experience. Most of my hours were from various roles I had as part of a project, not direct PM roles.

Edit: I just checked the PMI website and either I am crazy or they changed it to say directing/leading projects. When I got my PMP in 2013 my boss told me I just needed project experience and not direct experience. PMI accepted my hours. Maybe they just didn't catch it because I wasn't selected for an audit or maybe they have changed the requirements since then to be more specific.

Definitely said leading/directing back then. If you get your boss to sign off on it, they don't even check, though.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2018 23:44

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

ApolloSuna posted:

My dream is to become a project manager. Should I just kill myself now or wait till I get really into it? Any advice?

Get a relevant job in your field at a company big enough to have dedicated PMs, tell your boss you want to be a project manager, pay for the PMP certificate out of your own pocket and take the exam. In the mean-time, ask for projects that qualify for the 2 years' experience required to complete the certificate.

Also, read every relevant resource/class/lecture/webinar on influencing without authority. Cuz that's your job now.

# ¿ Dec 21, 2018 01:18

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

CarForumPoster posted:

If you arent a technical PM though I think you need especially good technical leads who could be decent PMs themselves but dont want to.

I think you need to either know enough to know where your blindspots are. Or you need to know so little technically that you route everything through your SMEs. It's that gap in the middle that's really dangerous.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2019 21:30

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Emnity posted:

I have met some fantastic Engineers who are simply great Engineers and who want nothing else, but I have also seen plenty of Engineers pushed into Project Management roles as the only route to promotion or pay rise and they haven't been given sufficient instruction, information or exposure (and often use it as an extended authority to the technical department).

If you're given sufficient instruction, information, and exposure, are you even a project manager any more?

Kidding aside, if a sponsor has the time and understanding to provide those 3 things, they can just assign a matrix employee to it.

# ¿ May 30, 2019 01:56

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

The Berzerker posted:

I love this in particular. I still PM but I also teach it now and this is something my students really need to understand - you are going to be viewed as a villain by a lot of your coworkers, but your function is necessary because of the areas in which they are lacking, so be prepared.

I'm not a PM, but I have dabbled in the area. Every organization would be better off if they fired everyone who viewed PMs as villains. PM skills are so orthogonal to subject matter skills that anyone who conflates the two is an idiot. In PM mode, I defer to my SMEs. When I'm in SME mode, I thank God I don't have to do all the PM bullshit. But I know the struggle.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2019 02:05

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Stormtrooper posted:

I'm a tech lead being tasked with more and more project management work. As someone coming from a development background, what should I keep in mind to be successful?

I was in your position a couple years ago. Still a tech manager who does occasional PM stuff. Number one thing that helps is to have a sponsor who will lend authority. Number two is learn how to influence without authority. As the PM, you gotta help someone before they'll help you, and trust them before they'll trust you. Take leadership classes that teach team-based influence if your organization will pay for them.

Also, technical skills aren't PM skills. Be humble and don't assume that because you're awesome at your job, you'll be decent at PM. It's like pro athletes going into broadcasting. The best athletes are rarely the best broadcasters. The best broadcasters are the ones who put as much work into broadcasting as they did into sports.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2019 21:52

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Veskit posted:

It's so normal.

So insanely normal. Though this seems like a soft skills question more than a pm one since it could happen to anyone does it not?

Yup. If people were good at their jobs, you wouldn't need project managers.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2019 05:50

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

weato posted:

Cool thread. I've been a PM for a large complex facility for about 7 years. In truth my role is much more like that of a facility manager, but our threshold for "project" is any task with more that 20 hours of labour, hence the title. Also, my org doesn't feel like funding both an FM and PM position so I get to plan capital redevelopment projects while also hearing out managers on why they absolutely need every single white board in their department moved 4 inches to the left.

Anyways, not being a formally trained PM I just want to say how great reading this thread has been. I report directly to a CFO and have exactly ziltch internal expertise to draw from. Would love to hear more from any construction or FM industry PM's (should they exist in this thread).

We have a similar role on our team. My biggest advice: Find a good electrician sub-contractor and nurture that relationship like your job depends on it. (It does)

# ¿ Dec 21, 2019 13:27

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

ilkhan posted:

Where is all this going down?

I'm in the Piedmont Triad of North Carolina and weato's experience is pretty similar to my company's. Not quite $175 for drywallers*, but it's getting there.

*It may be $175 for drywallers that can pass a drug test. God help those who drug test sheet rock hangers.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2019 05:43

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

My work just instituted a policy of paying for up to $3k a year in graduate school credits, plus unlimited spend on test prep and test fees for professional certifications. They also are hosting a 5 PDU class on PM fundamentals that I'm signed up for. Looks like I'm getting a free PMP. :toot:

# ¿ Jan 20, 2020 03:49

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

CarForumPoster posted:

Nice! If this was the corporate thread I'd make a joke about a 4 year requirement for 100% reimbursement.

1 year to qualify and a 12 month prorated clawback period afterwards. Not bad, imho.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2020 02:53

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

CarForumPoster posted:

Yea thats better than a Fortune 100 company I worked at. One was "ALL classes within 24 months paid back, 2 yr qual" and the other was 1yr/qual, 1yr payback, similar to yours.

I wonder if theres any way to do a very long stint at HBS or Sloan...$3k a year doesnt buy much MBA wise.

Yeah, it's not MBA $$$. But it's a nice perk.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2020 04:34

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Mad Wack posted:

the most common form of pm is "accidental project manager" and you have a day job on top of that

I had a grand-boss that didn't believe in formal project management. Instead, he gave a small project to promising individual contributors. If they succeeded to his definition of success, he'd give them a bigger project. Repeat until they hosed something up. Eventually you had people with little formal training building entire plants.

He was actually very successful at getting his projects completed, which is something I'm still trying to understand.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2020 01:12

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

I'm taking a PMP prep course right now (paid for by a training grant to my company). Our instructor is great, but boy is the coursework's ethics unit out in lala-land. There is considerable conflict between the right answers on the practice tests I've taken and the way the real world works.

Question: You don't have the authority to keep functional managers from taking all your resources. What do you do?

Answers:
A) Tell your sponsor you lack the resources to complete the project. (wrong)
B) Go to the authority well with your authority bucket and just get more authority. (correct)

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Mar 26, 2020

# ¿ Mar 26, 2020 19:15

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Passed the PMP this afternoon. My test prep course simultaneously gave me the tools necessary to pass the exam and completely failed to prepare me for what the test would actually be like. My advice for test takers would be to scrutinize every question for which phase you're in, identify which process is appropriate, assume you have more power than God, assume you have no decision-making authority whatsoever, and pick the most proactive answer that aligns with the process you've identified.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2020 22:26

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

CarForumPoster posted:

This is how most people get in to PM roles in my limited experience. You tend to get the responsibility without the title first.

This has been my experience.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2020 23:45

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Korwen posted:

So my question is, if I like the administrative work, data analytics, and meeting scheduling/coordination parts of my role as a project manager, but do not have the desire to be a leader of employees, is project management the right field for me?

Yes. Project management is not a leadership role. And if you like all the communication and administration that comes along with making a project successful without wanting a leadership role, project management is absolutely for you.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2020 00:16

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Rooted Vegetable posted:

A question about the PMP application process. My supervisors and managers at work are a mixed bag. Often we'll work under a different supervisor, rather than our direct manager, for some time. Other times, we'll be left to our own initiative and just report back to stakeholders and keep our direct manager informed, sometimes we'll do that but with a supervisor.

Now, when it comes to filling in the application and defending it should it ever be audited, I'm getting mixed answers from the PMI on who I can use for that:
* The PMP Handbook (most practical guide to the application process) says " your supervisor(s) or manager(s) from the project(s) recorded in the experience verification section of the application".
* However, an audit requirements page says "A manager, supervisor, or colleague who has firsthand knowledge of the experience on your application isrequired to review and then complete the Project Management Experience Audit Report."

The latter is easier to obtain because I still work with people I've had on projects, whereas managers in the last few years get shuffled around.

My question is how much I should be ready for in case an audit does come, and if so, are there any tips for whom I should pre-ask to be a reference if needed.

They leave it vague on purpose, but the test prep instructor for the course I took told the class that you really shouldn't worry about it. They'll work with you to help you get them what they need.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2021 03:11

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Rooted Vegetable posted:

Ok perfect.

Further question: my work tends to have multiple smaller projects taking place over many months due to availability of people. It can artificially lengthen a short project to a year even though the active time was a few months. I also have plenty of overlap, but is this a problem?

Furthermore, I was two-hatting for a while (Technical resource and PM). Also not a big deal?

I've got projects going back to 2017 on my history.

Nope. All of these issues are exceedingly common. If you worked on projects for 10 hours a week over 3 years, put that on the worksheet as ~1500 hours of experience. If you worked on multiple projects concurrently, they go as separate projects on the worksheet.

spwrozek knows what's up.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2021 18:09

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

The test format has changed recently, so previous experience might not translate.

Dik Hz posted:

Passed the PMP this afternoon. My test prep course simultaneously gave me the tools necessary to pass the exam and completely failed to prepare me for what the test would actually be like. My advice for test takers would be to scrutinize every question for which phase you're in, identify which process is appropriate, assume you have more power than God, assume you have no decision-making authority whatsoever, and pick the most proactive answer that aligns with the process you've identified.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2021 12:22

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

SgtScruffy posted:

Taking the PMP exam tomorrow yayay currently not sleeping because I keep recreating fuggin page 25 in my head. You know the one.
Edit: WHAT A GREAT NIGHT FOR MY DAUGHTER TO NOT SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN TEN MONTHS

Good luck! Report back when you recover from your post-test bender. That fucker is draining.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2021 14:28

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Rooted Vegetable posted:

Congrats!

I passed recently too.

Agree with the draining thing, the whole exam feels like a giant messing with one's mind. I sometimes wonder if passing simply means making it to the end without going certifiably mad.

That's quite the thought. Maybe the whole thing is just a pretense for measuring your patience for artificial bureaucracy.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2021 23:21

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Golden Bee posted:

How hard is the PMP compared to like, the SATs?

Well, PMP is strictly pass/fail. It tests a very specific slice of knowledge that is learnable and coachable. Going based on pass rate, the PMP exam isn't hard. But you need to know the specific knowledge it tests.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2021 13:46

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

pizzapocketparty posted:

Does it matter how small projects are for project management hours? I have some large renovation projects of entire floors I've worked on, but a lot of my projects are fairly small like coordinating 2-3 office rooms getting re-painted since I'm just an admin assistant who has become the go-to person for any physical space projects.

I've also thought of maybe retconning small projects together as one large project, e.g. "renovating 3rd floor of building X" and having that include any painting, new furniture, coordinating a staff person moving into an office there, etc.. even though they were totally separate plans.

My instinct from reviewing this thread seems to be that as long as your boss vouches for you, it's fine. Combining the projects seems easier, but feels sort of odd.

They don�t care even the slightest bout what the projects actually are, just that you can describe the PM stuff you did on them.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2022 15:57

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Agree with spwrozek 100%

I was taught the acronym PDORA - Purpose, Desired Outcome, Roles, Agenda. I don't do roles in my meetings, but the rest I do. In your meeting invite, explicitly list a concrete measurable desired outcome for the meeting, as well as a purpose and an agenda broken out in 5 minute intervals. Do your best to stick to the agenda, accomplish the purpose, and create the desired outcome. Prepare in advance, including reviewing everyone's contributions before the meeting. If you're surprised by anything in a meeting you run, you hosed up. Be assertive and cut people off if they ramble. This will be scary at first, but everyone will appreciate it in the long run.

Also, create an action item tracker and keep it updated. I put them at the bottom of every meeting invite. Form doesn't matter; just create something that works for you and keep up on it. There is a lot of power in running through the action items and updating due dates on each. People really don't want to look like the weak link in front of the team.

I can not stress this last one enough: Get training. I took this course: https://mckimmoncenter.ncsu.edu/course/how-to-communicate-influence-and-negotiate-in-project-management/ Highly recommend. Get your work to pay for it.

# ¿ May 10, 2022 04:15

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Soup Inspector posted:

Thanks guys, I appreciate the great advice! I'll try to make use of as much of it as I can.

Although progress was glacial up until recently, apparently the project was first thought up two years ago... and they're only thinking of having someone (me) write a codified project plan now. In all fairness, COVID took its toll and this isn't some massive multinational but rather a non-profit with like 30 guys tops (plus there wasn't anyone available to focus only on the project until I was hired) but I'm still a little taken aback. Are there any typical project plan items I could reasonably dispense with given the organisation's relatively small scale, or am I better served listening to my instincts and just attempting to draw up a plan in its entirety, even if it feels a little like overkill?

Eat the elephant. Start with a stakeholder matrix and that will help you figure out what�s shippable. Work breakdown structure and risk matrix are musts every time, imo.

# ¿ May 11, 2022 01:41

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Maera Sior posted:

I have 4 years experience doing extremely variable part-time unpaid project management (events). Is there any point in getting a CAPM? How do I know if I qualify for the PMP?

https://www.pmi.org/certifications/project-management-pmp

# ¿ May 13, 2022 16:56

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Maera Sior posted:

I know the requirements they call for to take the PMP exam (36 months), I'm just not sure if what I did fully counts towards it. My schedule is *extremely* erratic and I have no way to count the number of hours I've put in over the years.

I have no problem trudging along in some paid job until I'm confident I qualify for the PMP exam if that's what it takes, but I'm dubious that taking the CAPM is worth anything.

CAPM is meaningless. people only care about PMP.

Any experience on projects counts as long as you can spin it with a straight face and your boss will vouch for you if you get audited.

Just estimate. If you worked 40% of the time on projects, and worked 2080 hours/year, that's 832 hours towards your requirements. You use the same poo poo for estimating your effort for qualifying for a PMP as you would when planning resource estimates for a project.

# ¿ May 16, 2022 00:19

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

That job specifically lists previously working with Pzifer executives as a qualification. I wouldn�t get my hopes up.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2022 12:30

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Anyone got free PDU recommendations?

# ¿ Aug 27, 2022 23:52

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

LawfulWaffle posted:

How common are multiple interviews for PM positions? I have one for an IT PM role that would elevate me from a �management analyst doing PM work� pit but the HR person who called me to schedule the interview made it sound like this would be the first of a series and that the first one was more informal. Are technical assessments common? Should I brush up on memorizing all the inputs, tools and techniques? I have my CAPM and am planning on getting my PMP this year, but I don�t know if having a cert is generally considered proof of knowing the PM basics.

Hiring managers care way more about practical experience. Nobody is going to grill you on the ittos. Be prepared to talk about examples from your past that reflect the different phases of projects. Communication is the most import skill a pm has so make sure to show your skill through professional communication at every opportunity.

Every single pm position I�ve interviewed for has asked the question, �tell me about a time a project was failing. What did you do about it? What was the result?�

And the question, �tell me about a time you had to work with a difficult team member�

Also, �Tell me about a time you got unexpected results� was really common.

I also have gotten �Tell me about a time you had to communicate bad news� a couple times.

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Jan 24, 2023

# ¿ Jan 24, 2023 13:42

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

LawfulWaffle posted:

One thing nearly all the applicants asked about was the interview->decision timeline. Is that tacky? I didn�t have to answer it so it didn�t bother me, but I plan on asking it myself and I don�t want to be gauche. Or maybe it shows me as being curious about details, idk

Are you even a project manager if you don�t ask for a timeline at the end of a meeting? �What are your next steps in this process and do you need anything else from me at this stage?� Is a great way to ask.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2023 16:17

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

theflyingexecutive posted:

I suppose why I see myself looking at more formalized corporate roles is that they're the most likely to have extensive onboarding for their specific PM style and my proficiency won't have to come from years of experience in the field.

If you�re expecting corporate environments to have formal and relevant onboarding, you might want to adjust your expectations.

PM as taught by the PMBOK is at best highly aspirational.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2023 19:22

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

A risk dependent on another risk gets the worst score of both risks.

Radar overweight 5/1.
Plane overweight 5/5.

I�m not a fan of strict %chance of happening divided by 20 = risk frequency score.

I prefer to think of it as �on a scale of 1-5, do we need to mitigate this risk?�

Dithering between a 4 or 5 because of uncertainty misses the point that without addressing that particular risk, the project won�t be successful.

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Mar 16, 2023

# ¿ Mar 16, 2023 17:53

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

daslog posted:

I can't agree on the 4 vs 5. If I present a risk to management as a 5 for the probability that means "it's happening." 1 to 4 are "it might happen."

OK, so is your risk management strategy for a risk as described by OP any different because you scored the risk 4-5 instead of 5-5?

Initial assessments are there to flag issues and I can�t imagine not implementing risk management for a 4-5 risk. And if you�re doing risk management, all that really matters is the mitigated risk assessment.

You also get to go back and revise the risk matrix as you get more information. To try to summarize, we have a risk that has a 50% chance of happening by itself and an upstream risk that has a 100% chance of making the first risk more likely to occur. Whether that is summarized as an initial 4 or 5 is pretty inconsequential. In general, though, you always round up if you�re unsure.

If you�re in CYA mode, �I flagged it as a 5 because one component of the risk is certain to occur� is a perfectly valid position to hold.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2023 19:48

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 22:50

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Epitope posted:

That sounds like you're artificially putting more responsibility on the radar team to cut weight vs the rest of the project. Just because they happen to have a separate line item (that doesn't matter much)

No and I�m baffled at how you came to that conclusion.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2023 20:45

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Project Management Thread: it cost more than I thought it would.

«‹›2 »