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webcams for christ posted:in equal temperament instruments like a piano A♯ is "just" B♭. the key which produces that same pitch corresponds to multiple labels we've assigned to it. the B key exists just as much as the C♭, A𝄪, and H keys do. Right, but the E key doesn't have a black sharp, it has the natural F as the half step up. So E# is F, and Fb is E on a keyboard. I got that. What I'm asking is on other instruments like that sax, trumpet and whatnot have a combo of valves that would make an E# tone that is different from the F tone?
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Nov 16, 2023 13:54
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Cimber posted:Right, but the E key doesn't have a black sharp, it has the natural F as the half step up. So one of the first things I learned when building a major scale was WWWHWWWH. So E# is F, and Fb is E on a keyboard. I got that. What I'm asking is on other instruments like that sax, trumpet and whatnot have a combo of valves that would make an E# tone that is different from the F tone? the colors of a piano and names of notes themselves are arbitrary constructs that correspond to "real" frequencies I think the question you're asking is "why don't saxophones have different vales for both equal temperament and just temperament?" the answer is 1, that would mean like 4x as many valves, and 2, ensembles of different instruments generally have to play in the same temperament. if some instruments played strictly in equal temperament while others played in just temperament, some notes would be perceived as being out of tune
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Nov 16, 2023 14:01
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webcams for christ posted:the colors of a piano and names of notes themselves are arbitrary constructs that correspond to "real" frequencies So there is no E# frequency, if we adjust the wavelength of the sound to be the X hertz it would just be the same numberical value as F?
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Nov 16, 2023 14:37
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Devoid of context there is no difference between E# and F. There's a lot of theory stuff that distinguishes nomenclature, but for normal purposes they are the same tone and sound the same
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Nov 16, 2023 14:44
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Cimber posted:So there is no E# frequency, if we adjust the wavelength of the sound to be the X hertz it would just be the same numberical value as F? or you can flip it around and say there are infinite frequencies that are called "E#" depending on concert tuning (A= 440, 444, 442, 415, 430, etc) * scale temperament
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Nov 16, 2023 15:04
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Yeah but if you are asking that question that's a really unhelpful answer
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Nov 16, 2023 15:06
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 I think nuance is good. it's helpful to disentangle the following categories: [measured frequency], [percieved pitch], [named note], [concert tuning], and [scale temperament]they all interact with each other
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Nov 16, 2023 15:12
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Ok so let me ask in another way Does the fact that E and F do not have a black half step between them have to do with the way the piano was designed, or was the piano designed that way because the tone for E# and F are the exact same regardless, no matter what instrument you play it on from Alto Sax to Xylophone?
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Nov 16, 2023 15:33
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Think it's just a consequence of a 12-tone system where the major scale has the WWHWWWH pattern. Two notes in the scale are going to be a semitone apart, the ones we've ended up with are B-C and E-F. Probably just an accident of history that it's those notes specifically.
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Nov 16, 2023 16:11
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Cimber posted:Ok so let me ask in another way yes. the piano is designed after the harpsichord, which was invented prior to Equal Temperament this article gives a good overview of the evolution of the keyboard. it's important to remember that it predates the existence of equal temperament, made famous by Bach in "The Well-Tempered Clavier" Cimber posted:or was the piano designed that way because the tone for E# and F are the exact same regardless, no matter what instrument you play it on from Alto Sax to Xylophone? The Modern Piano (or electronic keyboard) uses equal temperament, as does the xylophone, saxophone, and most concert instruments that aren't fretless string instruments. meaning that it in most contexts with a piano in 2023, E# and F are "exactly the same", differing only in name
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Nov 16, 2023 16:13
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I tend to use modes when jamming, sketching out musical ideas, writing melodies, and zoning out on instruments (especially on guitar). A lot of my favorite riffs and melodies can be expressed in modes, so I play around with them. I’ll often just arp up and down along a rhythm on Dorian or Phrygian or something, maybe replace some whole or half steps with major or minor third jumps (just so it’s not a braindead arp). But I’m not very good at it. Sometimes I’ll play or end on a note that’s consonant but still sounds like crap. Obviously you can’t just randomly play notes in a given mode and expect it to sound great, but I don’t actually understand why that’s the case. Here’s an example of a not-very-good ditty based on A Dorian: https://youtu.be/vGepMmqWKJI It’s uninspiring, and the second and third bar are particularly unappealing. Is there a theory-driven explanation to what’s going on here? My initial guess was something related to the intervals formed by moving between two different scale degrees, but trying to figure those out makes my head hurt. For comparison, here’s an example of a really good ditty also based on A Dorian, not mine obviously: https://youtu.be/-4WmCo-E2vE I like this one, and I can’t justify it! 
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Nov 16, 2023 18:08
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The first example doesn't have a consistent rhythm that I can discern - just sounds random, so there's nothing for my ear to latch onto. The second one uses a repeating rhythmic idea that's easier to follow. The second one is also hitting the natural 6th, the characteristic tone of the mode, more often - in fact, does the first example even hit that note? I don't think it does, so it's Aeolian as much as it is Dorian.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:31
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Here's a song i wrote that uses Dorian ideas: https://voca.ro/1fpEDWo7O8QW It's in A minor but uses the natural 6th (F#) a lot: it's in the intro sax riff, and in the vocal melody ("on the raft", "like the vines"). The chord progression vamps between Am and Bm, and Bm contains that F#. Characteristic tones of the modes: Dorian: natural minor with raised 6th Phrygian: natural minor with lowered 2nd Lydian: major with raised 4th Mixolydian: major with lowered 7th If you want to sound like a particular mode, you'll want to hit that characteristic tone as much as possible. Also avoid playing dominant 7ths because you'll start pulling to the relative major key.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:46
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a.p. dent posted:The first example doesn't have a consistent rhythm that I can discern - just sounds random, so there's nothing for my ear to latch onto. The second one uses a repeating rhythmic idea that's easier to follow. Okay, so then my use of rhythm needs work. Maybe it would be a good idea to nail that down first? Come up with a one-note rhythm for a few bars, then layer notes on top of it? quote:The second one is also hitting the natural 6th, the characteristic tone of the mode, more often - in fact, does the first example even hit that note? I don't think it does, so it's Aeolian as much as it is Dorian. That’s a really good point. When I say that I “use modes”, what I really mean is that I set a scale constraint to a mode and then flail wildly on the keyboard.  There’s clearly more to it than that and I’m prolly not using them properly.Saw your other post, I’m in a meeting atm but I’ll check it out and respond after
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Nov 16, 2023 19:03
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i learned a bunch of music theory but i like the original way i used to do it, play a bunch of bad notes until i find the ones that sound good usually ends up being pentatonic
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Nov 16, 2023 19:38
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Cimber posted:Ok so let me ask in another way KoRMaK fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 19:41
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Cimber posted:Right, but the E key doesn't have a black sharp, it has the natural F as the half step up. So E# is F, and Fb is E on a keyboard. I got that. What I'm asking is on other instruments like that sax, trumpet and whatnot have a combo of valves that would make an E# tone that is different from the F tone? Remember that pitch on a wind instrument isn't just a construct of the valves/fingering; the player's embouchure and air flow also impact the pitch. This is one of many reasons why the oboe is so hard to play, since it's tiny and even a minute adjustment of the airflow/embouchure has massive impacts on your intonation. Wind players, especially when they're playing specific parts of a chord in an ensemble, will often play a pitch that differs from the frequency of the equal temperament pitch written on the sheet; because harmonic series math reasons, the chord will sound fuller and more consonant. Equal temperament is a compromise made for certain instruments (so you don't have to retune your piano every time you change keys), but ones with easily varied pitches like wind instruments aren't as constrained by those limitations. Cimber posted:Ok so let me ask in another way Flats and sharps predate the invention of the piano, but came after the beginning of what we now view as the modern system of western notation. Cliff Notes version of it is just that some guys needed other notes besides the naturals for the music that was already being performed, and added them to notation so they could describe things that were happening in music they were trying to notate. There didn't happen to be stuff between E and F or B and C that was necessary to notate, so it wasn't notated; this became standard practice, and instruments with fixed pitches were designed without anything going on there.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:32
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Pollyanna posted:I tend to use modes when jamming, sketching out musical ideas, writing melodies, and zoning out on instruments (especially on guitar). A lot of my favorite riffs and melodies can be expressed in modes, so I play around with them. I’ll often just arp up and down along a rhythm on Dorian or Phrygian or something, maybe replace some whole or half steps with major or minor third jumps (just so it’s not a braindead arp). So in addition to the rhythmic stuff highlighted earlier and not using the characteristic note of the mode, you're not really establishing any fundamental harmonic idea here, especially since there's nothing in the background. If you're playing a melody in a vacuum and want to evoke a chord, hit chord tones on strong beats, and use stepwise motion or enclosures with your non-chord tones to accentuate them.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:37
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Adam Neely did a video about the enharmonic equivalent thing. The first half of the video is about how the distinction is useful for communicating with others, and the second half is about how they can be actually different tones in other tuning systems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZftrA-aCa4
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Nov 16, 2023 23:59
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ColdPie posted:Adam Neely did a video about the enharmonic equivalent thing. The first half of the video is about how the distinction is useful for communicating with others, and the second half is about how they can be actually different tones in other tuning systems. there we go
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Nov 17, 2023 00:04
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Pollyanna posted:I tend to use modes when jamming, sketching out musical ideas, writing melodies, and zoning out on instruments (especially on guitar). A lot of my favorite riffs and melodies can be expressed in modes, so I play around with them. I’ll often just arp up and down along a rhythm on Dorian or Phrygian or something, maybe replace some whole or half steps with major or minor third jumps (just so it’s not a braindead arp). i agree with A P Dent and Cream Corn regarding the importance of rhythm and outlining some kind of harmonic movement. between the two, i think rhythm is the most important -- lots of tone sequences can sound good, if the rhythm is on point! only thing i would add is that the modes aren't the most useful concept for making original melodies, at least not in a vacuum. i've had better results starting with some kind of harmonic movement (chord progression) and writing a melody to fit. or stealing somebody else's melody and altering it! if you want to try again, i will listen to what you come up with.
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Nov 17, 2023 16:45
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I wouldn’t necessarily say no to sketching out a larger piece by getting the chords in each section down and filling in the blanks from there. Then it becomes a matter of translating a tonality into at least a few bars’ worth of interesting fuckery. I could even drop the chord guideline track at the end and pretend I came up with it without training wheels  Edit: Actually, truth be told, I have no idea how to get a solid 2 interesting minutes out of just a chord progression. Or what that would even look like. It’s certainly not as simple as like, 4 bars A major 4 bars B minor repeat, is it? Or wait gently caress, what about I-IV-V, have I completely forgotten some basic-rear end music theory already  Maybe I should learn about some interesting chord progressions and how they were used in their source works. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 21:49
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You would be surprised at the incredible variety and versatility of a classic I - IV - V. Give it a try. Other stuff to look at: - substitute IV with the minor iv - substitute V with the bVII or substitute minor iv with bVI - reverse the order: I - V - IV has a less "classical" feel, more rockish - substitute vi or iii for I - substitute ii for IV - make ii, iii, or vi major to get some chromaticism The more I write the more I rely on these basic ideas. They're classics for a reason!
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Nov 17, 2023 22:41
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on that note (HA!), I have to say doing the flash cards with all the chords, their inversions and then the 7th with some of their inversions has been really helpful. 1, i am less likely to have to pause to remember how to play a specific chord. 2, i'm seeing how music is being written with chords. I was looking a a piece last night that I was thinking of learning and realized that the bass cleft's hree notes were actually a chord played in progression, and then I realized it was a 2nd inversion of one I had written down on the flash cards. I then realized the next measure was another 2nd inversion, and was the IVth of the first measure's chord. Meanwhile, the melody was also moving along in a similar measure. I won't say that that made playing the music easier for me, since all the chords are not instinctual yet, but it sure as poo poo was cool to realize what the hell was going on.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:01
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Tonality completely escapes me because it seems so arcane. I like modes because they're easy to think about when you're just arpeggiating. In fact , I'm stuck on something. It's not clear what causes a tonic or tonal center to change versus what's just exploring a given key. If I'm in A major and over four bars I play I-I-IV-V, do I change key or tonality or anything if I then play iii-vi-IV-V? If so, why? If not, why not, and how would you change tonality using those chords?
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Nov 18, 2023 21:02
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not my area of expertise at all, but you're teetering on the fuzzy boundary between music theory and cognitive science the bibliography from this article may be of interest
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Nov 18, 2023 21:21
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Oh goddamn never mind I won’t think about it too hard Then let me replace it with another question. Does "starting with harmonic movement/chord progression" specifically imply major/minor triads (with optional extra stuff), or is it possible to sketch out harmonic movement with chords that don't have a third? Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 22:18
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Pollyanna posted:Tonality completely escapes me because it seems so arcane. I like modes because they're easy to think about when you're just arpeggiating. If you switch back and forth between those, it'll all feel like A still. All the chords are diatonic to A, and you're keeping the cadence that wants to resolve to A, even though it's temporarily not there (iii also shares the C and E with I.) Don't think so hard, and use your ears; do you feel like you're moving your home, and does it feel jarring when it goes back to I? If it does, you modulated; if it doesn't, you didn't. You'd need to use different chords to go somewhere else; easy shortcut to get there is replacing V with V of the new key, and then do what you need to do to get to V/new I smoothly in the preceding chords. creamcorn fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Nov 19, 2023 |
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Nov 19, 2023 03:37
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webcams for christ posted:equal temperament, made famous by Bach in "The Well-Tempered Clavier" Bach may not have intended this to be played in equal temperament. I thought it was confirmed to be some form of well temperament, but it looks like it's a continuing debate.
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Nov 24, 2023 13:07
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ok, I've found out something that is confusing the poo poo outta me. Screwing around on my piano when I was trying to figure out a chord name. Went down to my mac and typed those keys (E-G-A-C) out and it popped up as C6. Why wouldn't it be called A minor 7? It's all the keys for the Am7 just in an inversion? Is this garage band being strange in its naming, or is there some funky music theory thing i don't know yet.
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Dec 11, 2023 19:02
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C6 and Am7 contain the same notes! How you label it depends on the context and the bass note. I would take any chord identification app with a huge grain of salt, because they don't understand musical context and will give you mostly garbage unless it's a super simple chord.
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Dec 11, 2023 19:11
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you're going to come to find that context gives 80% of the meaning and there's no such thing as objectivity in music theory
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Dec 11, 2023 19:18
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a.p. dent posted:C6 and Am7 contain the same notes! How you label it depends on the context and the bass note. Why would the bass note really matter though in naming if you are just doing an inversion? Or would context matter, such as the key of the piece you are playing. if Am7 is for example the V chord in one key would that 'name' it differently?
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Dec 11, 2023 19:36
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Cimber posted:Why would the bass note really matter though in naming if you are just doing an inversion? Or would context matter, such as the key of the piece you are playing. if Am7 is for example the V chord in one key would that 'name' it differently? The bass note just gives you the most obvious starting point because most of the time chords are in root position, but you're correct that it could be an inversion as well. What really matters is the surrounding chords. If the chord is followed by a D it would likely be functioning as a ii - V in D. If it were preceded by a G7 it would probably be a V7 - I in C. Usually. Sometimes it's just not clear and either name can work. Sometimes it's more subtle. The chord just "feels" major in context? Call it C6. Etc. ETA: Once you know that these two chords have the same notes it's usually not that important to know which one is "correct"
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Dec 11, 2023 19:41
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a.p. dent posted:The bass note just gives you the most obvious starting point because most of the time chords are in root position, but you're correct that it could be an inversion as well. Thanks, and fair enough. I'm more concerned at this point with learning the muscle memory on the piano to know how to play various chords and inversions of those chords without having to think about it and try to spell it out. If for example I'm playing something out of the Big Book that just titles the bass chord and prints out the treble harmony, I don't want to be thinking 'ok, how the gently caress do i spell F#-7b5 and how can i play it using inversions so my hands are not going crazy'
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Dec 11, 2023 20:19
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learning to intuit chord inversions well is an advanced skillset. imo you're better off first getting fluent at sight-reading chords in root position. but when you see F#-7b5 printed on the page, it's hard to get around having to know how to spell that chord
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Dec 11, 2023 20:30
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webcams for christ posted:learning to intuit chord inversions well is an advanced skillset. imo you're better off first getting fluent at sight-reading chords in root position. but when you see F#-7b5 printed on the page, it's hard to get around having to know how to spell that chord Yeah, what I've done is written out 3X5 cards the name of various chords and their inversions on one side, and on the other side written out the notes. When I practice I go through them. Sometimes I'll look at one side where the chord is named and then play that, other times I'll look at the note side and have to name the chord that is presented. [edit] Like so: 
Cimber fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 20:40
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Once you feel you have a decent number of chords under your fingers, I'd recommend taking a few jazz standards (stuff on the easier side) and playing them in a few different keys. This will teach you how chords generally move: you'll see lots of ii - Vs, lots of V - I, some chromatic movement. Most songs are just I, IV, and V in various combinations. I think of the other diatonic chords as just substitutions for those (ii is IV, iii is I, vi is kinda-sorta I but wants to go to IV or ii). So, if you learn the I IV and V in a bunch of keys you'll be like 80% of the way there.
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Dec 11, 2023 20:54
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you could also combine your practice of learning note names / chord spellings with reading them on a staff. they have handy pens like this or this which would help save time. always better to stick with standardized forms of notation rather than inventing your own system (like placing a sharp after a note-head)
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Dec 11, 2023 20:54
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webcams for christ posted:you could also combine your practice of learning note names / chord spellings with reading them on a staff. they have handy pens like this or this which would help save time. wtf 
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Dec 12, 2023 14:49
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