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Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Here is a thread to discuss music theory, whether you want to know your majors from your minors, want to tell everyone about that cool new scale you just invented it's lydian dominant, or how to use a diminished seventh chord to pivot to literally any key. Or maybe you just want to shout "gently caress figured bass" into the abyss. This is a thread to cover any music theory discussion no matter how basic or advanced.


Theory websites

Chordinatr! is a Goon run website from Gruffalo Soldier, which allows you to see the relationships between chords, intervals and scales, and alter those to see how it changes things.

Gruffalo Soldier posted:

The top table allows you to set your scale, by flattening or sharpening each degree (relative to the major scale), and shows you the intervals from and to each other degree of the scale. The bottom table shows the chords that can be built from each degree.

You can click the cog in the top right to change the tonic, and to select quickly pick scales (i.e. ionic, pentatonic).

I've never really seen anything that expresses the intervals within a scale in this way. I built it in order to easily see what chords could be built from 'exotic' scales, but also to see how the chords would change with the intervals within the scale.


Two other websites which I see recommended a lot are Teoria and musictheory.net.

Both are great at explaining everything from a very basic level, starting with beats, bars, note lengths, and going all the way through modes and cadences to neapolitan chords. If you have never even looked at written music before, those two websites will get you up to speed in no time. For more advanced users, musictheory.net has some great tools like one that lets you pick a chord and it shows you the notes in it, while Teoria has some exercises like giving you the name of a chord and telling you if you've written it on the stave correctly.

Scales and Chord Tools is also a great website, if you've made up a funky chord, or started playing a weird melody and want to know what key it is in, plug the notes in and this website throws up possible chord names, scale names, modes, etc.


YouTube channels

This seems to be the best online resource now, because you can hear everything as it's being explained.

12tone
This is my personal favourite channel. It has a great "Building Blocks" playlist to learn what scales and chords are, as well as videos analysing popular songs like Toto's Africa or Nirvana's In Bloom. But the real meat of this channel is the regular weekly theory videos going over such subjects as how to modulate to distant keys, microtonality, or unusual scales. Every video is short, concise, and no waffle, straight to the facts.

Art Of Composing
The "How To Compose Music" playlist is fantastic, and walks you through the basics of composing a small ternary form piece (ABA) using standard classical theory, including constructing sentences, functional harmony and modulations. There are some longer videos on there, and in some of those he answers questions or composes a piece of music live.

He has a website, Art Of Composing with two paid courses, one of which is a far more in depth version of his YouTube course, and the other digs into writing an entire sonata.

8-bit Music Theory
Very unique channel focusing on video game music. Analysing things such as the chord structures in Donkey Kong Country ambient music, or what exactly gives Mario its distinctive "fun" feeling. I don't think there's anything this in depth just for video game music.

Adam Neely
Quite popular channel, covering all sorts of music related stuff, not just theory, but has some really good theory videos, especially the "How To Not Suck At Music" playlist.

Sideways
Mainly focused on film and TV music, covering things like leitmotifs and how to evoke emotions in soundtracks.

Michael New
In depth videos on subjects such as extended chords, suspended chords, as well as covering basic stuff like circle of fifths and why we use sharps and flats. Uses a whiteboard and keyboard on screen to illustrate concepts.

Signals Music Studios
Mostly guitar based theory, but what he does isn't limited to just guitarists. Using interesting scales like Mixolydian b6, and a bunch of videos on great chord sequences which don't follow common practice.

Rick Beato
This guy is a monster. He covers everything in music, not just theory. Picks apart bands to work out why they're good, explains esoteric scales (Hungarian minor and Superlocrian bb7 in one video) and then writes a piece in every mode in that scale. Ear training, film music theory, jazz soloing. Anything you can think of and more. He also covers all sorts of mixing, business, performance, interviews with famous musicians, and other subjects too.


Books

I've seen "Fundamentals Of Musical Composition" by Arnold Schoenberg recommended a lot but haven't read it myself. I will get around to it soon! If anyone has anything to say about it, I'll add it to the OP.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure which books are good, so if anyone has suggestions with a little writeup, again I'll add them to the OP.


More

Image at the top is a very basic representation of the usual chord progression of functional harmony (in a major key). Of course, rules are made to be bent and broken, but a good place to start is learning those rules in the first place. Art of Composing has a great explanation of functional harmony chord progressions in major and minor keys with detailed charts. Functional harmony is basically the concept that every chord has a function: tonic (I, vi), subdominant (ii, IV) or dominant (V, viio). Plus the weird uncle iii chord.

Circle of fifths, very important, learn to play Hey Joe. Here is a very good post on Talk Bass detailing why it's important.



But we wouldn't be content with just a circle of fifths, so here is a circle of everything recommended by Helianthus Annuus:



If anyone knows any other resources they want added to the OP just post about it or PM me and I'll add it in. I'm definitely short on stuff about orchestration and jazz theory.

And here is my own personal favourite video from 12tone, how to modulate to any key using a diminished 7th chord:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er6HLn6d05Y

Konsek fucked around with this message at 22:29 on May 5, 2019

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Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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I nearly added Adam Neely to the original OP but I wasn't sure since he has a lot of videos which are just fluff as well. If he's so popular I'll add him in. I've watched a few Michael New and Signals Music Studios videos before, I should look into them more deeply.

So, originally this thread came from wanting to ask a question in the small questions thread. In rondo form, I've been trying to work out if the A sections need to be fairly identical each time. I had this idea of changing the underlying harmony (and slightly adjusting the melody to fit) for the middle A section of an ABACA rondo, but it sounds quite different, although recognisable. I suppose one answer is "if I like it that's all that matters", but I'd like to get a grip on accepted practice before I go too crazy. Analysing some Beethoven rondos, he never really changed the A section much, so I'm leaning towards that.

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Every genre benefits from diminished chords.

Take your simple common metal progression [i-VI-VII]. Now follow that up with [V-VI-#vio-VII-#viio-i]. You got yourself some scandinavian power metal going. This just uses diminisheds, not 7ths, but drat those guys really are your swiss army knife.


The thing is, tritones are huge dissonance and want to be resolved to something smoother. In a V7 chord the 3rd and 7th notes of the chord are a tritone apart and want to be resolved. Take the key of C Major. V7 chord is G7. So the 3rd note is B, wants to resolve up a semitone to C (1st note in the C major I chord). The 7th note, F, wants to resolve a semitone down to E, the 3rd note in the C Major I chord.

Hey guess what other chord has those same notes? The viių. Just to clarify, the viių chord in a major key is half-diminished, not diminished, so the 7th is a semitone higher than a diminished chord, but the principle remains. similarly, the 1st and 3rd notes in the I chord are the 3rd and 5th notes in the vi chord. Now you can resolve to the relative minor, or a deceptive cadence as well.

In minor keys, you get even more diminished 7th chords. :woop: A diminished 7 chord is all tritones, so can resolve any of those tritones to notes a semitone inwards, making a new major chord to act as a I, IV or V.

One music teacher used to love telling the story that supposedly, Bach hated unresolved tritones. When he went to bed at night a relative would play a V7 chord on his harpsichord as a joke. Bach would have to get out of bed, run downstairs and play the I chord before he could get to sleep.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 14, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Jazz mans love their ii-V-I progressions.

Tritone substitutions are cool and good. A favourite thing of mine when playing 12 bar blues is on the fourth bar of I7, slip in a dominant 7th chord on the bV instead, before you go to the IV7 (so if you're in A major, play Eb7), this is the tritone sub of the V7/IV.

Hell, instead of playing IV7 for 2 bars, make the second bar a #iv dim7 (IV7 chord but raise the root one semitone), which is enharmonic to i dim7, which commonly resolves to I.

After that just go nuts with ii7-V7-I7 until you loop back round.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 22, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Loving the rhythm chat, even if I have nothing to add.

Just wanted to say I added some more YouTube channels to the OP.

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Simone Poodoin posted:

Any resources you recommend discussing harmonic rhythm? I've been having a hard time going beyond 4 bars 4 chord loops so want to see some theory about that to mix it up a bit

If we're talking classical theory, you can look at periods and sequences, which also encompasses the phrasing of the melody as well as harmonic rhythm.


Periods are the typical question/response form. 2 bars question, 2 bars response. 2 bars repeated question, 2 bars different response. Each response ends in a cadence, and the second cadence has to be stronger than the first.

So for example the first 'question' could use a bar of I, and a bar of V. Then the 'response' could have 2 chords per bar, maybe IV-I-ii-V, ending on a half cadence. Those four bars are your antecedent.

Then the 'question' again (I-V), and this time the 'response' phrase ends with a perfect authentic cadence, 2 chords to a bar (VI-ii-V7-I). Those four bars are your consequent.

The idea here is that the question phrases prolong being in the tonic, and the answer phrases have the candence. Put them together and you've got an 8 bar theme. Getting a bit more advanced, you can often use the antecedent to modulate as well, further widening your options for harmony.



Sentences, the best example of this is Beethoven's Sonata no 1 in F minor.

Start with a 2 bar phrase on one chord (as an example let's say I). Repeat that phrase in a different chord (for example V), altering the melody to fit the chord. Those 4 bars are the presentation phrase.

Then pick a bar from that 2 bar phrase (usually the second bar) and repeat it in the previous two chords (this is called fragmentation), so you have I-I-V-V-I-V. That 6th bar could also be in a different chord so far unused. Just fit the melody around the chord.

Then for the final 2 bars, come up with something to end the theme. The first of these bars is a simple melody releasing the tension over the first 2 chords of a cadence (this bar is called liquidation), and the final bar is the final chord of the cadence. These last 4 bars are called the continuation phrase. Like in the period, this cadence could be a half cadence ending on V, or a PAC ending on I, or hey you might have used bar 6 as a pivot chord and have a PAC in a new key.


Generally, I found a good simple approach to harmonic rhythm is to start off slow, then accelerate towards the end of the theme. Having the cadences and modulations helps speed the harmonic rhythm up. And in the case of the sentence, fragmenting the melody helps with having to switch chords faster.

Chord sequences don't need to be crazy and fast moving and using every chord under the sun either, pretty sure Beethoven just uses I and V two thirds of the time.


Here's 2 videos from "Art Of Composing" that explain both theme types better than I've typed them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cWZCk4Co-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U4IOI5oYFY

Konsek fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Apr 29, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Cmin | D | Gmin/Bb | E | Amin | Cdim Ebdim | G | C# |
F#min | D | Bmin | G | C | Amin | B | B |

Okay so this is a chord sequence I've been listening to a lot recently, and I wondered if anyone had any ideas for how and why it works. The previous key was E major, and the final B chord acts as a dominant back into E.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 21:42 on May 23, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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The chord sequence comes from Gates of Babylon by 70s rock band Rainbow. It's the backing for a pretty epic guitar solo.

Just before this is another guitar solo (at 3:00) which switches between E double harmonic major and some other E scales, in fact most of the song uses E double harmonic major (1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7) and phrygian domninant, which is pretty awesome.

I particularly like the Cdim Ebdim G sequence, though, definitely stealing that. In fact that whole Amin | Cdim Ebdim | G | C# | F#min bit is awesome as it incorporates my 2 of my favourite things, diminished chords and neapolitan chords.

Jazz Marimba posted:

G to C# works because of voice leading--two notes are identical and the other two move by step. Technically it's a Neapolitan chord following the original, but Neapolitan chords are used as a replacement of the chord.

If it goes from G to C# to F#min, isn't it the G that is the neapolitan chord? In which case it's in the normal order.

This video starts on the Am chord that precedes the chord sequence (the sequence loops twice).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHCdCbTxypU&t=220s

Konsek fucked around with this message at 23:23 on May 28, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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In my experience, neapolitan chords are more common in minor keys, but as you say, it works in both.

The guitarist and the keyboardists he worked with definitely have at least some classical knowledge, it's evident all over early Deep Purple and Rainbow.

However, what I find fascinating is that even if something is written just because the musician thinks "this sounds really good together", you can very often work out why after the fact, and replicate it purposefully. Which is something that makes music theory so powerful.

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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quadrophrenic posted:

i'm trying to find the name of this chord

on banjo it has the fingering

code:
d| --4
B| --5
G| --6
D| --6
g| --0
ignoring the high G on the bottom (because it is already confusing enough w/o it):

this chord is (Ab - Db - E - Gb), and it sounds extremely dissonant when sounded together but has a nice sus4 quality when arpeggiated and i lead it into a chord w/ the notes (G - C - D - Gb) - which I also don't really know what to call. on first glance I figured it was (root - 4 - aug5 - dim7) which would be Absus4... what? Or would it be better to not even call the Db a 4th interval at this point, but rather an augmented 3rd? Also the chord overall has a Db minor flavor to it, so calling Db the root would yield: (root - minor 3 - 4) over Ab and i don't even know what the gently caress that is, and that's not even considering the high G


i'm hopelessly confused, i've gotten fairly decent at knowing chord formulas for chords with a major/minor 3rd, but the 4th is throwing me off here. i clearly need to study chord construction more, if anyone can point me to some reading materials about this stuff it'd be greatly appreciated

If I ignore the G as you suggest, putting the notes together in any order, I can come up with Gb7sus2. Although I think respelling those flats as sharps would be easier to understand, making F#7sus2. We have the root (F#), no third, fifth (C#), b7th (E), and 9th (or 2nd) (G#). 7sus2 chords aren't uncommon and sound very jazzy.

The reason it's a sus2 chord is because there is no third (in this case it would be either A or A# depending on if the chord would be minor or major).

There are 2 things to bear in mind with this. Firstly, as said, it ignores the G. Although if you add that back in you'd have F#9sus(b2) which is quite cool sounding. Despite having a different name to the previously mentioned chord, it's literally the same chord, same notes, but with a b9 as well as a 9. As long as the root, b9 and 9 are spaced apart they shouldn't clash, and in your fingering they are spaced apart. So it sounds cool.

The second thing is, with your fingering the bass note is G#, so the 9 is in the bass. Not unheard of at all, but something to bear in mind when understanding the chord. Again, 9th in the bass sounds cool.

Edit: Missed the other chord. The G C D Gb chord would make D11, because the Gb is in fact an F#, so you have root (D), 3rd (F#), no fifth but that's normal, b7 (C) and 11 (or 4th) (G).

Stripping out the interesting notes, you've got a D7 and an F#7, which are chromatic mediants. It works because they share notes and the notes that do change mostly change by a semitone. I don't follow which way round you're playing those chords, but ending on a B major or G major chord might sound good.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jun 9, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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By the way, Adam Neely had a livestream last night with 12tone, 8-bit Music Theory, and Sideways. Pretty much all the best music theory guys on Youtube apart from Rick Beato. They cover a few topics like music degrees, using your inner ear, notating rhythms, what goes into making their videos, and other stuff. Worth watching. Definitely hope they do more!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZgLf4tUuhA

Konsek fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jun 9, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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If the G is droning through multiple chords you don't need to think about it in the harmony, the brain just accepts it because it's consistently there. Also full disclaimer, I know literally nothing about banjo music so everything I wrote comes from theory rather than practical experience.

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Helianthus Annuus posted:

Can you help me understand how this follows from theory? I thought you would say the drone serves a special function of some kind.

There are different kinds of pedal points. You might play a tonic pedal in the bass, or to create more tension use a dominant pedal. For that dominant pedal a well known example is the C section of Fur Elise. quadrophrenic is using a pedal in the melody, which creates some harmonic tension. You could also have chord pedals, where you play one chord repeatedly while changing only the bass note.

Ultimately all of these things can accomplish different things depending on how you use them, like using a bass pedal to create stability while going through a series of unusual chords, or creating an ambiguous feel with melody pedals. In my opinion I think it mainly helps create tension, and music is all about tension and release. But if anyone else has opinions feel free to chime in.

Music is a mixture of theory and "this sounds cool". You can't analyse these chords with pedals because you'd end up with weird chords that make no sense. The brain accepts the pedal tones because of repetition. That's why in quadrophrenic's chords, they make more sense once you treat the G note as a pedal.

Here look, Rick Beato can explain it way better than me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FsfGgz3Lpc

Konsek fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jun 11, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Mastigophoran posted:

Hello Theory Thread,

I play folk music on a two row DG tuned Diatonic Button Accordion/Melodeon, [...]

Can anyone offer me advice on understanding, or where to go about reading about, or terms I might investigate, on why you might go about selecting particular diatonic chords over other ones when harmonising against a tune, so that when some of them are not available you're still able to make some sense and cover over what you're missing, or at least recognise when a tune may just not be going to sound right without a particular option being available. I already play quite a few tunes that do prefer certain diatonic chords over others in other keys, eg an E minor tune that relies on D chords over B minors, but I can't profess to understand quite why.

You mention you're using natural minor scales, where the V chord is minor (this is why harmonic minor was invented, raising the 7th degree turns the V chord major). I am not familiar with accordian or folk music, but I do know a lot of rock music in natural minor keys uses a major VII chord in place of a dominant V7 chord, which is why you find your E minor tunes relying on D major. I actually don't know why this is so common or what makes it sound "right", so if anyone else can chime in on that I'd be very interested.

Another thing to consider is using a tritone substitution dominant chord, which is playing the dominant chord a tritone above the V7 chord. In the case of B natural minor that would be a C7 chord. If I understand what you say, I don't think you can play that chord but a regular C chord might work?

On the subject of how to choose chords, if you're choosing the chords to go under a tune, you probably want to choose chords that have the notes of the melody which fall on the beat. This is sort of a reverse way of how a lot of tunes are written over chords, where you put chord tones on the beat and fill in the bits in between with the other notes. Then just follow the usual chord jobs, Tonic (I of course, but can also use vi and iii), pre-dominant (ii and IV) and dominant (V or V7 and viio), and you generally go from pre-dom to dom to tonic, see the first image in the OP. Minor is mostly the same, although natural minor does throw up the minor v chord thing as you know, in which case don't worry so much about functional harmony and use chords which accentuate the aeolian mode's unique properties, like using a VI-VII-i progression (I think I just accidentally answered the question from the previous paragraph here)

If you watch this video, 12tone explains major key chord functions really clearly, and in the same playlist there's a video for chord functions in minor keys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot_lbUcb-uE

Konsek fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jun 16, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Mastigophoran posted:

It's not unusual to just get a melody and have to figure the rest out yourself. It's really that task that I'm trying to feel more confident in doing. I tried to find some unquestionably traditional tunes to write chords for but I actually hard a really hard time doing so and I have no idea what policy on that kind of thing is here, so for now I'm keeping them to myself. Regardless, I grabbed a few tunes from these websites and tried writing chords for them, but, in the process of doing so, I found I was actually having a pretty hard time not completely avoiding the V chord of F#m, and even when specifically trying to find a space for it, I found it tough to slot in. (I tried with the Star of the County Down, The Plane Tree and Hop Break)

Generally the tunes I've tried, I've been finding that the VII A major sits better to my ear against the notes that would run into B minor as we approach 'home', and I'm invariably using the III D major chord against F# notes that fall in the middle of the 'journey'. As soon as I go back to tunes I already play that use the V in their original key though, I'm like, gimme that F#m. Once transposed to B minor, I can't work out something for Theme Vannitaise that sounds good without access to F#m, but, I find it hard to want to use F#m in The Plane Tree.

I don't think there would be an issue if you threw a few tunes up if you wanted other posters to harmonise them.

Don't get caught up in trying to fit the minor v chord into the progression just because functional harmony says you have to go V-I. If you're using strictly natural minor (also called Aeolian, by the way, it's a mode of the major scale), the V-I cadence won't work because the v is minor. This is why Harmonic minor was invented, to make the V major and give a strong cadence. A lot of composers and songwriters just switch in and out of minor modes/scales as they see fit, and don't stay strictly to just one scale. So you could consider using a major or dominant V instead of a minor v, or just embrace the aeolian/natural minor sound and forget about the v (if it doesn't fit that part of the song) and use that VII that fits so well. If you think F#m doesn't fit in The Plane Tree, well, don't use it. That's fine. Using the VII chord a lot is common in natural minor, and shares 2 of the notes from the v chord, so that can explain why it sounds good to you under the notes you're playing. If it sounds right to your ears then it probably is right, whether it's v or VII or whatever else. At the end of the day, music is about making something that you like the sound of, not solving a maths problem. Less Heinrich Schenker and more Michael Schenker.

Mastigophoran posted:

I really appreciate the responses! I watched a lot of the 12 tone videos, and while they still move way too fast and I feel fail to give enough examples, they have helped quite a bit wrt understanding chord function.

Honestly search Youtube for what you want. I've been interested in a specific thing before, looked it up on Youtube, found videos with just a few hundred views which have been eye opening.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Jun 17, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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A second Musica Analytica livestream has gone up, with 12tone, 8-bit Music Theory, Adam Nealy and Sideways. Haven't watched it yet, about to get on a plane, but will be as soon as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYhEDazNoBY

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Jason Sextro posted:

there's no strict key this falls into, although there could be modal interchange. If you switch Eb to D#, you could have D# minor, where the Emaj7 acts as a bIImaj7. I'd say it's that just because it starts and ends on the Eb/D# minor.

I agree with you about the modal interchange. As I said in the other thread, there's a lot of music that switches between minor modes. It definitely makes more sense with the first chord as D#. That way, the Emaj is from phrygian and the C#maj is from Aeolian.

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Helianthus Annuus posted:

I always think of melodic minor as "harmonic dorian" because it actually has more common tones with dorian than it has with natural minor.

Natural Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Harmonic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Melodic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7

But my music buddies seem to think I'm missing the point. I also don't get the reason why we might play a different minor scale going up vs going down. Help?

There is the historical context. Since melodic minor came about because the augmented second leap in harmonic minor was too big for singers, it's more usual to think of it as a progression from natural to harmonic to melodic. The names are meaningful, because harmonic minor was created to be able to use a V7 in the harmony, and melodic minor came about to be of use in the melody.

As for the ascending/descending thing. There are plenty of examples of melodic minor being used both ascending and descending from Bach to Beethoven. One thing I've heard a few times is that this tradition only exists for people practicing scales. However, if you consider the leading tone should resolve up to the tonic, then descending and going from the leading tone to the submediant would go against expectations. In which case supposedly you're better off using the natural minor so that the b7 doesn't feel like it should resolve to the tonic. Although, this doesn't really take into acount the fact that harmonic minor is the same ascending and descending.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Sep 6, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Jonny Nox posted:

Hey all,

I'm still on page 1 of this thread, but for a reading resource have a song-by-song breakdown and analysis of the entire Beatles canon. This was immensely influential on me from an early point, especially when considering structure and arrangement in a pop sensibility.

http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/DATABASES/AWP/awp-notes_on.shtml

Hey, this is cool, especially after I stumbled across this video the other day looking at the use of modes in a few of their songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-c_Q0jY0Gs

Some people like to trot out the thing of the Beatles not knowing any theory, but they certainly did. Even if it wasn't formal, they knew what they were doing. By virtue of learning so much repertoire in their early days, and from experimentation later on, they naturally absorbed the knowledge even if they didn't know the names of things.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Sep 6, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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This kind of thing is called a chromatic mediant, which is pretty much a non-diatonic version of the mediant or submediant chord. It works because there's a bit of modal borrowing, or has a shared tone, or half-tone movement, or because it's a secondary dominant.

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Philthy posted:

Okay, this is buggin' the poo poo out of me.

(This is a pic from some Amazon card set review and it triggered me to post this)



The root notes are red.

How is A the root note on an E Scale? I've been seeing this all over the place where they highlight the root notes on the scale, and they don't match the key of the scale. Why.

That isn't the E scale, it's the E shape. If the root note was E and you played the chord tones, then you'd have the basic open E chord. This comes from what I know of as the CAGED system, where you have 5 shapes based on the 5 open chords, and everything, from major, minor, modes, etc, are all derived from these shapes. For example, the most basic F chord most people know with the root as 1st fret on the E string, is in the E shape. Take that shape and move it up and down the fret board. That note on the E string will always be the root, but you could be using the E shape to play an A scale if you start on the 5th fret, for example. Which is what your image shows.

As a teenager I used to just practice those shapes, for all 7 modes, plus harmonic and melodic minor, in every position on the fretboard when I was doing other things like watching TV until it was all muscle memory.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Dec 14, 2018

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Gnumonic posted:

Two questions:

1) Does anyone have a good reference for musical form?

I'm asking because it's dawned on me over the past month or so that I really don't want to write verse/chorus style songs. I want to write instrumental music, and having something like sonata form in mind helps me organize ideas in a more natural way than ABAB or whatever. But sonatas are kind of laborious to write and I'd like to explore other organizational structures for instrumental pieces.



I don't think anyone has discussed this yet, but this is something I'm also interested in. At a high level, you have the Sonata form which is like the king of forms, plus Binary (AB or AABB), Ternary (ABA), Rondo (ABACA etc), and variations. I think that covers the main ones.

But then you get into sentences and periods, and how modulation is important in defining the sections of a piece.

Sentences are made up of your basic starting phrase, a repetition of that phrase, and then a continuation phrase which does things like fragmenting and changing harmony faster. See first part of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 1.

Periods are your basic question/answer/same question/new answer phrases, first answer ends on a weak cadence, second answer on a strong cadence.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL341D841389B2FEC7 - I think videos 3 and 4 in this playlist explain sentences and periods quite well. From your question you seem to be familiar with Sonata form so may understand these already, but others might find these videos helpful.

Modulation is a very complicated but massively important part of defining sections I think, and I have tried to read a lot on it and analyse music to understand modulation and still don't fully understand the rules. Obviously starting in your home key for the first section, and then modulate to a related key for any B section. But from there... I dunno, go hog wild, is my understanding of it to be quite honest, as long as you recapitulate and end in your home key. From your question I assume you have a handle on modulation in Sonata form and that's the most complicated one. When I originally started this thread it was because I was considering what to do with a Rondo (ABACA) piece. Can my middle A section be in a key other than the home key, or is it strict? Well, I just called it A1 and said it's a variation, I mean nobody died just because I wasn't strict about the key, and it sounded good. Even then, once you've established a new key for a new section (e.g. modulating to the dominant key for the B section), you can still modulate a hundred times within that section.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Apr 6, 2019

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Hi, double post time! I've been a bit out of touch with my musical side for a while because work has been busy, but I want to keep the thread relevant. Are there any resources people want added to the OP? I can see there's a goon made website being discussed but I can't find the relevant post to link to it. Repost and I'll add it!

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Helianthus Annuus posted:

wb op, heres the site that Gruffalo Soldier made https://www.chordinatr.com/

can you pls put a picture the circle of 5ths in the op, maybe even this one

I have updated the OP with your suggestions, plus a few other bits and bobs, such as an explanation of functional harmony and a link to some charts, and some info on why the circle of fifths is cool and good to go with your suggestion.


Pondex posted:

Are triad-inversions "supposed" to sound different from each other? I can tell major/minor triads apart but I can't hear if a triad has the 1, 3, or 5 on top. (But then again, I'm a beginner at this)

I am crap at this. Years ago, I hummed quietly to myself up the scale between each chord tone in my theory exams and I still do it to this day.

Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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Thanks, I had no idea anything was going on until every thread I have bookmarked started posting about Discord. Guess I'll have to get used to that.

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Konsek
Sep 4, 2006

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If you change the Fmin to Fmaj you've basically got You're Welcome from Moana. It's the standard 4 chords from two thirds of pop music. Adding the Bmaj is just a V of V which further strengthens the Emaj as the dominant.

The Dmin-Cmaj personally draws me right back to Amin.

I'm just throwing something out here which may or may not be what you want: Either replace the Cmaj in the pre-chorus with Gmaj, or add four measures of Gmaj after the Dmin-Cmaj, and go to a Cmaj to start the chorus. Basically this modulates from Amin to the relative Major, Cmaj. Then knock yourself out with a big happy Cmaj chorus and modulate back to Amin with something like a Gmaj or Emaj.

Go extra with a Gmaj-G#dim at the end of the chorus to start the next verse with Amin. Mmm.

Konsek fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Jul 6, 2020

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