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Actually it didn't
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Apr 21, 2018 07:03
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stalin did nothing wrong
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Apr 21, 2018 07:06
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also pol pot
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Apr 21, 2018 07:06
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:the famine resulted from stalin's imposition of total wholesale collectivization of peasant agriculture across eurasia but there is no evidence that it was specifically directed at ukraine OP this is 100% true but it's also one of the most weaksauce excuses in history "oh yeah the Vozhd ordered the wholesale disruption of agricultural production in Ukraine and elsewhere but he's totally innocent of all those deaths and it totally wasn't genocide" like would you accept the same tortured logic about Bush and Abu Ghraib? not saying I think the mass starvation in early 30s Ukraine fits the legal definition of genocide with a big G but seriously it was Stalin and his apparatchiks' fault and there's no two ways about it
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Apr 21, 2018 07:08
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They got what everybody wishes would happen to Missouri
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Apr 21, 2018 07:10
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Golden Corral has been turned into Soviet Corral. Jeff Foxworthy has been liquidated
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Apr 21, 2018 07:12
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Golden Corral has been turned into Soviet Corral. Jeff Foxworthy has been liquidated justice imo
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Apr 21, 2018 07:14
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Fuligin posted:yes op, it did, although its scope and circumstances have often been exaggerated or simply lied about. since the opening of soviet archives we have direct evidence that stalin was repeatedly made aware of the famine but he was a stubborn lad and seems to have decided for himself that it was bullshit. it was primarily his inaction that made it particularly devastating in ukraine, although it afflicted most of the southern russian grain belt only part of this post (the second half) is accurate. when the ukrainian and soviet politburo realized the realities of the famine they greatly reduced requisitions and quotas. ironically this decision was kept secret, leading the government to appear more ruthless than it actually was
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Apr 21, 2018 07:16
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R. Guyovich posted:only part of this post (the second half) is accurate. when the ukrainian and soviet politburo realized the realities of the famine they greatly reduced requisitions and quotas. ironically this decision was kept secret, leading the government to appear more ruthless than it actually was That was nice as hell of them. Pretty selfless act of them in my opinion
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Apr 21, 2018 07:18
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R. Guyovich posted:only part of this post (the second half) is accurate. when the ukrainian and soviet politburo realized the realities of the famine they greatly reduced requisitions and quotas. ironically this decision was kept secret, leading the government to appear more ruthless than it actually was again this feels like a major cop-out and would you accept the same level of handwaving of disastrous internal policies that killed millions about the British response to the Bengal Famine during WW2
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Apr 21, 2018 07:19
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It's kinda interesting that while the Holocaust and the Holodomor are a source contention for both ends of the political spectrum, almost all of the genocides/mass death events with smaller death tolls don't seem to get their numbers questioned much by everyone outside of the groups that perpetrated them or that are ideologically adjacent to them. Like, I've never seen many far-left or far-right people heavily contesting common perceptions about the Armenian genocide or the Hutu/Tutsi one if they're not from a country directly involved to them. Stuff that's more than a century removed, and deemed far away from them and without big political implications (unlike, say, the genocide of native americans), often gets a "sure, yeah, that's probably accurate". Well, that's the impression I get.
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Apr 21, 2018 07:32
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Its a mavel cinematic universe v dc cinematic universe thing
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Apr 21, 2018 07:34
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Mayor Dave posted:also pol pot his name is funny cuz it's two things you can smoke
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Apr 21, 2018 07:38
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:again this feels like a major cop-out and would you accept the same level of handwaving of disastrous internal policies that killed millions about the British response to the Bengal Famine during WW2 no? debunking the idea the politburos were just sitting on their hands and doing nothing (or stroking their snidely whiplash moustaches) doesn't make them above criticism
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Apr 21, 2018 07:45
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R. Guyovich posted:no? debunking the idea the politburos were just sitting on their hands and doing nothing (or stroking their snidely whiplash moustaches) doesn't make them above criticism Yes, I agree completely. IMO the holodomor was a humanitarian catastrophe that resulted from the politburo's decisions and arguments over the definition of genocide should not overshadow this fact, nor should later efforts to undo the damage their decisions wrought in Ukraine and elsewhere excuse the politburo's earlier actions Vincent Van Goatse has issued a correction as of 07:56 on Apr 21, 2018 |
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Apr 21, 2018 07:48
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yeah that's probably fair
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Apr 21, 2018 08:41
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:this is 100% true but it's also one of the most weaksauce excuses in history Yeah it was also yet another famine in a series of famines that happened in a historically very hard to farm and drought prone region but no one points to millions dead under the czars. Not that the Soviets didn't do bad things of course. Moridin920 has issued a correction as of 12:18 on Apr 21, 2018 |
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Apr 21, 2018 12:15
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stalin may have killed a lot of people, but he also helped a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if the holodomor is bad or not,
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Apr 21, 2018 14:31
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https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/987686845071941633
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Apr 21, 2018 14:47
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myth status: debunkered
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Apr 21, 2018 15:27
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paul_soccer10 posted:oh you said breathe. guess this thread has me thinking about food..... please dont think about food in the holodomor thread
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Apr 21, 2018 15:29
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Yes, it was an avoidable man-made famine similar to the famines of the Raj.Moridin920 posted:Yeah it was also yet another famine in a series of famines that happened in a historically very hard to farm and drought prone region but no one points to millions dead under the czars.
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Apr 21, 2018 15:38
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BEAR GRYLLZ posted:dunno about the holodomor OP but i do know about the bengal famine, in which winston churchill personally ordered 2-3 million Indians starved to death during WWII
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Apr 21, 2018 15:41
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jBrereton posted:Yes, it was an avoidable man-made famine similar to the famines of the Raj. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_(2017_film)#Controversy
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Apr 21, 2018 16:03
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a lot of the people Stalin killed probably deserved to die, OP.
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Apr 21, 2018 16:05
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https://twitter.com/dril/status/541298222044819456
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Apr 21, 2018 16:12
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paul_soccer10 posted:max blumenthal (anti-semite) says it its an anti soviet myth or something max blumenthal isn't an anti-semite dude holodomor is often used to justify ukraine's collaboration with the nazis and treat them as a lesser evil. ironically it's ukraine "whatabout"-ism irt the holocaust. as for how intentional the famine was and how many casualties? historians are divided
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Apr 22, 2018 01:19
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Moridin920 posted:Yeah it was also yet another famine in a series of famines that happened in a historically very hard to farm and drought prone region but no one points to millions dead under the czars. Wasn't Ukraine the "bread basket" of the USSR?
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Apr 22, 2018 01:20
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when you sell food instead of letting people eat it then they dont get to eat it someone earlier compared it to famines in India. also a case of selling food on the world market. in that case, the food was sold for corporate profits that nobody needed. in stalin's case, the food was sold to fund industrialization without which the USSR would have crumbled just as hitler thought it would. also in stalin's case, he gets to be held personally accountable, whereas in the case of india nobody is blamed, except maybe the victims. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 has issued a correction as of 01:41 on Apr 22, 2018 |
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Apr 22, 2018 01:35
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R. Guyovich posted:how often do you forget to breathe? i'm betting at least three times a week sleep apnea is government-based op
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Apr 22, 2018 01:51
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Apr 22, 2018 01:52
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Yossarian-22 posted:Wasn't Ukraine the "bread basket" of the USSR? Lmao
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Apr 22, 2018 05:25
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paul_soccer10 posted:why do people say it was? just to lazily associate socialism with the holocaust? There's more the idea that when the famine ensued that very little was done to assuage it (and some actions that made it worse), in a way that felt extra deliberate when it came to Ukraine. Like a more malicious version of British inaction and apathy regarding the Irish famine.
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Apr 22, 2018 05:34
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadbasket ctrl+f "russia"
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Apr 22, 2018 06:10
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So Kotkin writes that Stalin engaged in piracy while he was living in Baku after he blowed up the money carriage in Tiflis? He was a Caspian Sea pirate? Can someone explain???
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Apr 22, 2018 11:47
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He also writes that despite all the political murder and general Wild West tomfoolery happening in the Caucasus at that time, the real bad boys were the Dashnaks, i.e. Armenians and when I read that I thought yeah that makes sense
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Apr 22, 2018 11:49
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Holy gently caress the toxic environment in Baku killed his wife who violently bled out from tuberculosis. Stalin then tried to throw himself into her grave. This is heavy poo poo
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Apr 22, 2018 11:54
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:So Kotkin writes that Stalin engaged in piracy while he was living in Baku after he blowed up the money carriage in Tiflis? cool if true
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Apr 22, 2018 11:58
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i wish you would holodoless
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Apr 22, 2018 21:42
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Apr 22, 2018 23:16
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