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Jericho is as much a trooper as Cena is, I can't believe he came back to KSA after the last loving time he was there. For those who didn't read his books after the first one, the last time Jericho was in Saudi Arabia and did a show, he basically blew off someone with an expensive car trying to buy something off him (I forget if it was the belt or something else) and basically threatening that he's "loving Dead" before speeding off in his stupidly expensive car. If I had that happen to me I'd never loving go back.
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May 4, 2018 10:29
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dsriggs posted:So was Sami Zayn barred from appearing at the GRR because he has Syrian heritage? Or did he volunteer not to go? I’ve been hearing competing things. He was banned. Satin retracted his thing about him volunteering and reiterated what everyone else was saying, which is he was flatout not allowed
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May 4, 2018 10:48
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I'm sure he was torn up about it. Lots of duders on the roster looking at their ancestry to see if they have an Syrian in them.
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May 4, 2018 11:33
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MassRafTer posted:They are already using WWE owned assets and WWE employees to make pitches for the league. WWE is also apparently a minority owner of the league, per the SEC filings
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May 4, 2018 14:02
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https://411mania.com/wrestling/new-report-claims-hulk-hogan-close-wwe-return/quote:According to TMZ Sports, plans to bring Hulk Hogan back are currently underway. The site claims that Hogan and high-ranking WWE officials have been in touch recently and it’s been positive. The site also claims that one of the members of the royal family specifically asked for Hulk to participate in the Greatest Royal Rumble event. While Hogan didn’t take part in the event, the request reportedly opened up a dialogue between Hogan & WWE. TMZ also reports that WWE wants Hogan back, and Hogan wants to return, but that they want to do it the right way and be sensitive to the audience that was offended by Hogan’s use of racist terminology. Racism is ok now, there's money to be had
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May 4, 2018 15:11
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If you look here at this chart, Daniel Bryan's return to wrestling coincides with a significant lull in viewership and he shoulders the full blame
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May 4, 2018 15:17
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MotU posted:was actually banned because ska brings shame to the letters K S and A well let it never be said I can't admit when they get something right
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May 4, 2018 15:20
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STAC Goat posted:The thing is... there's a lot of upsetting things about this. The discrimination against women and WWE treating that as "respect people's cultures." The propaganda of a bad state. The Iran stuff writing storylines that feed into life and death world issues as a minstrel show to a King. Sami Zayn effectively being punished for giving a poo poo and being a good person trying to help people in this world, who happen to be some of the people KSA are hurting and hate. Its outrageous to me and a line I genuinely never imagined WWE crossing for as bad as they are. I think the issue there is that at that point the argument stops being about WWE and the KSA and turns into condemning individuals. Basically at the end of the derail, it was becoming "YOU PERSONALLY are a BAD PERSON if you don't immediately cancel the WWE Network, the cable package that has USA on it, and burn all your wrestling merch", which is at best counterproductive, and at worst is going to be actively antagonistic if the people hearing it have very personal reasons for watching. Like, me, I'm a wrestling fan because of my late father. It was one of the few things we had in common, and a thing we'd watch together when I was little, and watching it gives me a little connection to him now. Now on an intellectual level I can understand the argument that you were making, but when the ire is aimed at ME and not WWE, it becomes very hard to disentangle those feelings and not feel like I'm being personally attacked for that connection. I certainly got the impression a few other people were uncomfortable for similar reasons. It's also not out of sight/out of mind because everyone who was actively engaged in the discussion in the main thread (and more) are in here discussing in a more focused manner. And finally, IF this was a commercial show, and WWE had ANY leverage in pulling out (ie, that it would cost the Saudi economy X amount to not have the show) then I can see trying to organise a campaign to alert sponsors, a la the Moolah thing, but these are sold shows. WWE pulling out would have literally no impact to the KSA and say nothing to them. They'd just get the UFC or Impact or someone to come instead.
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May 4, 2018 15:26
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Gumball Gumption posted:That PR video during the GRR was all about how KSA is really Wakanda. Doesn't Black Panther end with Wakanda deciding to open a bunch of Saudi style cultural centers?
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May 4, 2018 15:28
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This is easily one of the shittiest things the E has done in recent memory, and I wish this were the cause for me not actively watching as opposed to just apathy to the majority of the product. One to two good matches a week does not a good promotion make.
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May 4, 2018 15:34
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MassRafTer posted:Doesn't Black Panther end with Wakanda deciding to open a bunch of Saudi style cultural centers? Yeah, while Wakanda doesn't even have its own Starbucks as of Infinity War!
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May 4, 2018 15:47
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EugeneJ posted:https://411mania.com/wrestling/new-report-claims-hulk-hogan-close-wwe-return/ Of course they did. They probably asked for Bret Hart and Ric Flair and the loving Rock too. I'm actually kind of surprised Dwayne didn't show up.
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May 4, 2018 19:42
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im cute posted:Of course they did. They probably asked for Bret Hart and Ric Flair and the loving Rock too. I'm actually kind of surprised Dwayne didn't show up. They asked for Warrior and Yokozuna.
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May 4, 2018 20:07
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Gaz-L posted:I think the issue there is that at that point the argument stops being about WWE and the KSA and turns into condemning individuals. Basically at the end of the derail, it was becoming "YOU PERSONALLY are a BAD PERSON if you don't immediately cancel the WWE Network, the cable package that has USA on it, and burn all your wrestling merch", which is at best counterproductive, and at worst is going to be actively antagonistic if the people hearing it have very personal reasons for watching. Like, me, I'm a wrestling fan because of my late father. It was one of the few things we had in common, and a thing we'd watch together when I was little, and watching it gives me a little connection to him now. Now on an intellectual level I can understand the argument that you were making, but when the ire is aimed at ME and not WWE, it becomes very hard to disentangle those feelings and not feel like I'm being personally attacked for that connection. I certainly got the impression a few other people were uncomfortable for similar reasons. But of course that's easier said than done. And I'm certainly not qualified to force a bunch of posters on a messageboard to do it. Gaz-L posted:And finally, IF this was a commercial show, and WWE had ANY leverage in pulling out (ie, that it would cost the Saudi economy X amount to not have the show) then I can see trying to organise a campaign to alert sponsors, a la the Moolah thing, but these are sold shows. WWE pulling out would have literally no impact to the KSA and say nothing to them. They'd just get the UFC or Impact or someone to come instead. I'm not saying you should do it. Its totally up to you. But I think saying "WWE I'm done with you because of all these things but especially X" is totally fair.
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May 4, 2018 20:25
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Here's my biggest problem, WWE wants to both be this company: http://www.wwe.com/article/stephanie-mcmahon-sheis-pledge And make lots and lots of money from KSA for propaganda. The two don't jive for me and is a large part of what got me to cancel the sub and really stop being interested in them. I'd honestly probably be less mad if WWE was honest about their blatant greed and disregard for people. Trying to have their cake and eat it too is what has driven me away.
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May 4, 2018 22:20
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if i was a saudi oil prince i would have asked for abyss just to see if that led to wwe buying tna oh also wwe is a propaganda machine now lol
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May 4, 2018 23:00
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STAC Goat posted:I get that and I was trying to soften it a bit by acknowledging that I have my own similar moral compromises. But that doesn't mean I was doing a good job with it or that its an easy thing to do to. I still think that's kind of the point to this. If you want to say "I know this is bad but I choose to still give them money and just try and make up for it some other way" that's fine. That's your call and only you need to live with it. Hell, if you say "I know this is bad but I don't care" that's your call. But I do think "this is bad but if you say that I'm bad for contributing to it then you're bad" is an instinct routed in cognitive dissonance and guilt and its better off for us to fight through those difficult feeling and address it. And no-one is saying otherwise. If this is your line, that's fine. Laudable, even. But a number of people did turn around and say "this is bad but i choose to do other things to make the world a better place" or "this is bad but meh" and that wasn't apparently good enough. And on the second point, it may be somewhat cop-outish. But if an organised boycott to 'punish' WWE happened, do you actually think they'd learn anything? Even if they pulled out of the deal, it would completely be a PR move on par with changing the battle royal name. It's more cynical apathy on my part than anything.
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May 4, 2018 23:04
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Yeah, I guess it comes down to the fact that I think "WWE can never do anything that would make me stop supporting them" is a stance worth digging into and really questioning, and is a real matter of "moral consumption" that matters, and that if you're mad about it that seems more about cognitive dissonance. But like... I'm not a TOTAL prick and I'm not gonna harass someone with it after they make it clear they're not interested in talking about it. And that's what happened so there we are. Re: Boycotts. I don't think boycotts ever really lead to a corporation "learning something." Its just about putting enough pressure on them to do the right thing for the only reason they care about, money. And once the right thing has been done, regardless of motivation, hopefully that has a positive cascading effect. "WWE" is probably never going to become "good" but forcing them to do the "right thing" is still a win for the side of good. Its just "The Racist Tree."
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May 4, 2018 23:11
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So you guys do know that the Fed isn't the only one doing this "Saudi Arabia is so progressive now" schtick, right? Like if anything the WWE is behind the times (shocker) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/31/saudi-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-us-tour https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-saudi/saudi-crown-prince-begins-european-tour-in-paris-idUSKBN1HF0F4 https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-publisher-pal-puts-saudi-propaganda-magazine-in-us-supermarkets All of these visits have included full page ads in papers and billboards advertising how great Saudi Arabia is https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/971297231595765766 I get that people don't like it but this isn't a VKM thing its a western media thing in general
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May 4, 2018 23:19
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i mean thats basically what propaganda is
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May 4, 2018 23:22
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yeah hell yeah I'm just trying to show the bigger picture that it's not just vince and the wwe that's doing the deal, mostly because of the angry "if you watch WWE U R SCUM" posts that's been appearing in these threads
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May 4, 2018 23:26
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well they're not exactly off the hook for doing it because other organizations are complicit as well, in a vacuum its still really really bad on their part as a publicly traded company who cares about their image when it comes to pr. but then again the entire women's revolution thing in wwe is just a pushed move for PR reasons to get stephanie over so nothing this company does is real anyway
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May 4, 2018 23:28
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I don't know what "this isn't a VKM thing" really means. I don't think anyone here was under the thought process that KSA is just a pet project of Vince that the WWE is singlehandedly trying to help. But that doesn't change anything WWE has done or any of the criticisms about it. Other people taking money from the Saudi Royal Family is totally a thing WWE is late to the party on. But they're here now. And this is a forum about wrestling and WWE. Like, Harvey Weinstein and Larry Nassar are both monsters who abused many women and girls. But one might get more attention in a sports forum and one might get more attention in a TV/Film forum because that's what they care about.
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May 4, 2018 23:29
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i mean i find 90% of wwe content to be legitimately unwatchable, so it's easier for me to say, but yeah it is gross to continue to give wwe money
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May 4, 2018 23:30
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I ain't arguing it's good I'm just saying people are zooming in like Vince personally said "lets go to Saudi Arabia on a field trip" I just want people to have the full picture because I feel they're missing it
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May 4, 2018 23:31
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you guys are overanalyzing that a sociopathic owner of a publicly traded company would gladly sell out his own employees to make a whole lotta money to help fund his vanity football league he's making to impress the president
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May 4, 2018 23:33
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cams posted:i mean i find 90% of wwe content to be legitimately unwatchable, so it's easier for me to say, but yeah it is gross to continue to give wwe money Yeah, a big part of why I'm not really comfortable with the "boycott" thing is because I wasn't really watching WWE or giving them money before so for me to act like I'm "boycotting" them because I cut back the little I do watch feels kind of bullshit. Peanut President posted:I ain't arguing it's good I'm just saying people are zooming in like Vince personally said "lets go to Saudi Arabia on a field trip" I just want people to have the full picture because I feel they're missing it I actually assume Vince has a lot less say in this sort of decision these days and I think its very clear that Triple H and Stephanie are hugely "guilty" in this, not to mention lots of other board members or people with power in WWE, including probably a number of wrestlers. I mean HHH has outright personally done this propaganda himself. But I think its save to say Vince wasn't the one who made the call about Sami Zayn and if I was being harsh I'd question why no wrestlers speak out in support of one of their peers and morals I hope they have. But Vince isn't my boogedy man and I don't think I've said his name once during my posts on these topics. I'm not sure singling out individuals is really fair or the point. "WWE" is the bad guy and WWE is way beyond Vince now. Its beyond "Steph and HHH" too. Its a massive corporation and I'm treating it as such. I'm not treating it as the plaything of a rich elderly megalomaniac or the carnival pasttime of a niche bunch of fans. Its a billion dollar machine that seriously affects the world. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 23:40 on May 4, 2018 |
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May 4, 2018 23:34
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STONE COLD 64 posted:you guys are overanalyzing that a sociopathic owner of a publicly traded company would gladly sell out his own employees to make a whole lotta money to help fund his vanity football league he's making to impress the president it always stuns me when people think Vince actually gives a gently caress about his employees like what could lead someone to that conclusion
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May 4, 2018 23:42
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It actually really surprises me that people still see WWE in terms of "Vince McMahon's circus." Like, its become such a massive global multi media billion dollar machine that spends billions of dollars in politics and bought one of the most important seats in the US Government. I think that's a big part of this conflict. The way some people brought Sinclair into the conversation I think was tied to that where "Sinclair" is more of a corporate boogedyman to some than WWE is. I was watching WWF in 1996 too so I get it. But WWE in 2018 is just something else entirely. In a lot of ways I think its like people who can never really hold their children accountable for their actions because they can never truly see them as anything but the kids they were.
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May 4, 2018 23:48
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STAC Goat posted:Yeah, a big part of why I'm not really comfortable with the "boycott" thing is because I wasn't really watching WWE or giving them money before so for me to act like I'm "boycotting" them because I cut back the little I do watch feels kind of bullshit. there is an argument to be made that the deal could legitimately be a force for spreading liberal values in saudi arabia, as exposure lets people there see the world outside their own and start to question it. however this argument gets hamstrung by wwe not allowing sami to make the trip, or any of the women, and getting reprimanded for showing brief footage of women wrestling at all in a video package. how much you buy this argument depends a lot on just how repressive you believe the regime to be, and i myself don't put much stock in it. but if you want a way to rationalize your continued consumption of wwe programming, that's a decent route. that said, i think any reasonable person can see that the only true solution is to allow any and all discussions of pirating the wwe product so as to allow those who still have an emotional connection a way to enjoy the product without supporting a puppet of a brutal regime. i'm sure j-ru will sign off on this.
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May 4, 2018 23:50
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DO NOT POST ABOUT PIRATING
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May 5, 2018 00:17
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Today's development https://twitter.com/dajosc11/status/992498960982982656
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May 5, 2018 00:21
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yeah but they're still executing people for being gay trevor
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May 5, 2018 00:23
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In all seriousness, why the gently caress would they not announce this BEFORE the first show? The really lovely thing is that WWE is now gonna claim,"See, progressive! All you people who claimed we were just doing a money grab should have just shut up!"
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May 5, 2018 00:24
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Apropos of nothing else (I'll wait for the "See, WWE changed the world!" takes) I'm overwhelmed by the string of sources on that.
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May 5, 2018 00:25
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Jerusalem posted:In all seriousness, why the gently caress would they not announce this BEFORE the first show? That’s probably why
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May 5, 2018 00:31
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Between the dealings with the KSA and all the stuff with the XFL, I'm starting to think Vince McMahon is a crazy person.
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May 5, 2018 00:31
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blowing my mind that a new limb of the trump administration is somehow doing really sketchy evil business things
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May 5, 2018 00:49
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Jerusalem posted:In all seriousness, why the gently caress would they not announce this BEFORE the first show? WWE recruited Aliyah for that purpose pretty much: https://twitter.com/WWE_Aliyah/status/992092432471764992 Simon Gotch elaborated on it in his shoot interview and I remember the search for a "female Sami Zayn" as Sami early on in NXT took part of a WWE live event tour of the Middle East. It took a while to find Aliyah as Muslim female wrestlers are very rare. NXT signed her at 19 and she's 23 now. She speaks Arabic and her parents are from various Middle Eastern countries. WWE has kinda warehoused her in the Performance Center for this eventuality. Her current in ring and lack of a real character isn't exactly forcing their hand in calling her up though. In that tweet above she references sneaking out of the house. Her family is very strict and conservative. She has posted photos of her younger sisters wearing traditional dress and stuff. She had to lie about Wrestling training for about a year as she feared her parents would stop her.
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May 5, 2018 00:55
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Jerusalem posted:In all seriousness, why the gently caress would they not announce this BEFORE the first show? it will be great if WWE somehow caused massive cultural change in saudia arabia because they snuck 30 seconds of carmella singing in a bikini on a ppv and suddenly massive amounts of men in the audience got a boner and want more
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May 5, 2018 02:00
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