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Takuan posted:Aren't WWE's viewer demographics skewing older and older as time goes on? Like most of the people watching now are people that have been watching since the Attitude era and as they tune out there's no one replacing them? I watch partly to see them fail and partly because I am still a mark deep down.
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May 9, 2018 02:08
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Okay, pardon my ignorance. I'm trying to think in terms of the greater issue here. Is there any evidence that Salman actually DOING anything beyond all this propaganda that he's making sweeping reforms? Like, is he handing out crumbs while talking about how he's handing out delicious loaves of bread, or is he handing out sawdust while having all his psychopath friends promote his amazing feasts?
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May 9, 2018 02:11
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Not really? It's a tough question to answer because it's not as simple as him saying everyone has food while people are starving in the streets. It's more that the things they're pushing as reforms are still a mess. They're saying that things are better for women but the biggest change is that they're able to drive with a male chaperone. They say they're fighting corruption in the government but that mostly means they've arrested some corrupt politicians while the government is still an autocratic monarchy comprised of one large family. They're no longer arresting progressive voices for political crimes, now they're arresting conservatives. They're bringing in western sporting events and the world cup but those arenas are being built with slave labor. There are no real sweeping reforms, just small things to fix their image without actually changing the country. It's a monarchy run by one family where the majority of KSA nationals work in the public sector because the private sector is often slave conditions. Getting a bunch of sporting events and letting women drive is not going to fix their problems.
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May 9, 2018 03:23
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Yeah it's basically all window dressing. Their real strategy is trying to spur the growth of non-fossil fuel industry in order to sustain long term wealth for the royal family while westernizing just enough to maintain their autocratic power and keep the people happy enough so they don't revolt
Pinche Rudo fucked around with this message at 04:07 on May 9, 2018 |
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May 9, 2018 04:05
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Dexie posted:The archives are ridiculously good and some of the original programming on the Network is pretty cool. Yup, I hardly ever watch raw or smackdown anymore, but the gargantuan archive, being able to easily check out the smidgen of legit good things on the ppvs, and a couple of the original shows (ridealong, table for3, legends with jbl) is easily worth it.
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May 9, 2018 04:39
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e: old news
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May 9, 2018 14:31
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Mel Mudkiper posted:This is why I want them to find out about Muhammad Hassan because you know they have no idea  "Muhammed Hassan's Wiki posted:On April 28, 2018, Hassan returned to professional wrestling for the first time in 13 years, appearing at The Dynasty event, Dynasty King of Thrones, defeating Papadon If they bring back Muhammed Hassan for next year's Saudi show then it's all worth it in my opinion. 
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May 9, 2018 15:47
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honestly I feel like Hassan isn't remotely an unsalvageable character, and pretty much the only big problem on the booking end was that they made him a heel and not a face like, make Hassan a face and you basically have proto-Sami Zayn
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May 9, 2018 18:59
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:honestly I feel like Hassan isn't remotely an unsalvageable character, and pretty much the only big problem on the booking end was that they made him a heel and not a face Please don't, he isn't any good. It was a bad idea over a decade ago, bringing him back under that gimmick is a horrible idea today.
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May 9, 2018 19:13
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have his theme start with a plane crash but have people cheer for it
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May 9, 2018 20:20
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Hassan was a gimmick that could maybe have worked if it was given to both a good writing team capable of nuance and a good performer capable of winning people over. But it was the WWE so he was literally a terrorist who beat up the handicapped and as a performer he was the less interesting, less memorable part of a duo with Daivari. (also I don't know that any gimmick that requires nuance will work in the WWE in the first place especially as a face so he was doomed to just be a terrorist) (also in 2018 a primarily Italian dude playing an Arab would maybe be more of a problem than it used to be)
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May 9, 2018 21:19
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I'm not saying he should be brought back, just that it could have initially worked if they weren't huge assholes about it at every turn.
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May 9, 2018 21:52
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:I'm not saying he should be brought back, just that it could have initially worked if they weren't huge assholes about it at every turn. You'd still have an Italian American dude from upstate NY playing a wronged Muslim character in a post 9-11 world, and he was a pretty lovely wrestler on top of that. It was never a good idea.
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May 9, 2018 21:57
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Perfect timing on WWE's part, as usual https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/994275222751776768
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May 9, 2018 22:58
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Even if everything else fell into place WWE fans wouldn't cheer him.
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May 9, 2018 23:35
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Chris James 2 posted:Perfect timing on WWE's part, as usual nuclear heat one way or another
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May 9, 2018 23:36
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:I'm not saying he should be brought back, just that it could have initially worked if they weren't huge assholes about it at every turn. What's funny is that Hussein's very first video promo actually presented him as reasonable, supposedly being a Muslim-American who didn't want to be judged for the actions of a group of extremist murderers. But evidentally that was too nuanced for WWE so for every promo after that he became the typical AMERICA SUCKS AND I AM SUPERIOR boo the foreign other heel.
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May 10, 2018 00:11
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Hassan was a heel who was completely justified. That is impossible to write for in professional wrestling. It was the sort of gimmick that would make people face their own prejudices. As much as we'd like to think that would be ok, it's not. Wrestling is not something for people who seek introspection. You don't want to cheer him because he's throwing shade at you but if you boo then you're victim blaming. Anybody who feuds with him is going to come off as a complete jingoistic tool (So they threw Duggan and Slaugher out there because the ship had already sailed on those two) So you either make him more antagonistic or...I'm not even certain what the 'or' is in this scenario.
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May 10, 2018 01:03
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Lita posted:I understand that they are a business, a global business and they are always looking to expand their global presence. However, I do feel this was a direct conflict of interest with them maintaining any integrity or truth to the fact that they say they would like to push forward women, their roles and their reputations in this business as anything resembling equal to a male. Make the money, that’s fine, but don’t try to cover it up. Don’t say, “No, we are doing this because in the future we would like to help progress their culture forward!” No, you want the money, you’re a business and businesses make money. That’s okay. From my perspective over here, I don’t own your business so that’s your call. From a PR perspective don’t say you are doing it because, “We want to help progress that culture forward.” Uh no, it’s a direct conflict of interest, in my opinion.
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May 10, 2018 02:35
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Maybe Saudi Arabia's Actual Headsman In 2018 can come work an angle. Fun had by all.
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May 10, 2018 02:40
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When did Lita go from 'drunk aunt' to 'cool hippie drunk aunt'?
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May 10, 2018 02:46
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ChrisBTY posted:Hassan was a heel who was completely justified. Except all the times it's been done flawlessly, like most of Mick Foley's heel turns (particularly his ECW one), or Bret turning his back on non-Canadian fans, or Punk turning on The Rock, or Randy Savage turning on Hogan for not being there for him in the Megapowers, or Orndorff turning on Hogan. Or Sid turning on Hogan. Turning on Hogan is acceptable, is what I'm saying. Now, if you wanted to say "foreign heel whose racial identity in intertwined with why he's a heel", then you're onto something. And this isn't pedantry, because there's a sizable difference between the way people might react to a man angry that the fanbase who watches him is so bloodthirsty, that it wants to see his 3 year old child beaten with a singapore cane, and a guy who says that anybody who dislikes him must feel that way because of his racial makeup. Even if he's correct. Because while I agree with MRT that it was an angle that WWE was ill-equipped to handle and casting an Italian guy as a middle eastern Muslim was wildly inappropriate, I doubt the average fan eyeballed him and said "That ain't no muslim, he's eye-talian!". So it's quite possible that at least some of the fanbase were booing him for racial reasons. Mick Foley once said that Michael Hayes told him that the best heels were ones whose actions are at least somewhat if not fully justifiable. Hayes wasn't a good wrestler and he's a poop booker, but he's right. El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 02:51
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ChrisBTY posted:Hassan was a heel who was completely justified. which is why you... just make him a goddamn face from the start. have Cena and the other top guys side with him and be like "yeah, most muslim people are totally fine," and have the people trying to fight that be the most unlikeable dickbag heels on the roster (JBL would have been a good choice around the time). and just to make absolutely sure he gets over as a face, have him be the absolute most boy-scout-ish, nicest, most wholesome person of all time. like, book the motherfucker to just be absolutely impossible to hate on any level. have him shake hands with his opponents after he beats them and cut post-match promos about how much he respects them and how great it was to get to share the ring with them. have him cut promos about how much he loves his pet corgi, Sparkles, and then have an angle where JBL threatens Sparkles. make it very, very clear that Hassan is completely right that Muslim people shouldn't be discriminated against. (also, put a wrestler who's actually Middle Eastern and who can wrestle better in the role preferably, but intelligent booking could have smoothed over both things.)
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May 10, 2018 03:11
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everything except the dog in that example of getting a face over would generate some pretty good heel heat
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May 10, 2018 03:14
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Just keep on talking about the dog mostly
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May 10, 2018 03:14
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Chris James 2 posted:Perfect timing on WWE's part, as usual My favorite wasteland duo The Ascension is going to come back in a bigly relevant way.
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May 10, 2018 03:32
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:which is why you... just make him a goddamn face from the start. have Cena and the other top guys side with him and be like "yeah, most muslim people are totally fine," and have the people trying to fight that be the most unlikeable dickbag heels on the roster (JBL would have been a good choice around the time). just have the rock come out and say 'personally, i think 9/11 was good. from the first plane ALL THE WAY TO a second plane has just hit the twin towers.' the crowd'd chant rocky rocky
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May 10, 2018 05:29
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Endorph posted:just have the rock come out and say 'personally, i think 9/11 was good. from the first plane ALL THE WAY TO a second plane has just hit the twin towers.' the crowd'd chant rocky rocky the fact that you think "muslim people shouldn't be discriminated against" and "9/11 was extremely good" are equivalent or even remotely similar thoughts kind of worries me
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May 10, 2018 07:19
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Viral marketing for Skyscraper!
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May 10, 2018 07:50
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Can't say I am the biggest Lita fan on a pure Wrestling level. Her recent stints as a commentator and producer/road agent sucked. However, sticking by her convictions on the Saudi situation and the sneaking her #MeToo gear on to PPV during the Royal Rumber displayed a lot of conviction. She could just lay low and say nothing and live the benefits of being hardwired into WWE's women's history.
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May 10, 2018 11:38
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Except all the times it's been done flawlessly, like most of Mick Foley's heel turns (particularly his ECW one), or Bret turning his back on non-Canadian fans, or Punk turning on The Rock, or Randy Savage turning on Hogan for not being there for him in the Megapowers, or Orndorff turning on Hogan. Or Sid turning on Hogan. Turning on Hogan is acceptable, is what I'm saying. You're right that I wasn't thinking of other heels that had similar pushes unrelated to their cultural identities. I probably should have framed it that way. Although I think you could argue that the other 3 had exploitable holes in their justification if you looked closely enough. (Bret was just butthurt that Americans liked Austin better. Foley pioneered the hardcore movement then acted aghast when it drew in the bloodhounds. Punk had the crowd in his hands for a year during an ebb in WWE's popularity and thought that made him better than the guy who had been the man for 5 years before this point and the guy who was, at worst, 3rd most popular wrestler ever. Even I, as a big Punk fan, am forced to accept that Cena/Rock was the real match) But Foley said Hayes told him that the best heels were the ones who think they're completely justified. Or maybe not. poo poo it's been awhile since I read "Have a nice Day" LORD OF BOOTY posted:which is why you... just make him a goddamn face from the start. have Cena and the other top guys side with him and be like "yeah, most muslim people are totally fine," and have the people trying to fight that be the most unlikeable dickbag heels on the roster (JBL would have been a good choice around the time). I'm not entirely sure that that strategy wouldn't get the other faces booed and JBL cheered. Maybe I'm underestimating WWE's core demographic. Were there any middle-eastern wrestlers who could fit that role at that time? ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 14:12 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 12:26
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I'm still pissed that WWE hosed up Stone Cold Steve Islam Muhammad Hassan. Muslim dude who takes no poo poo is a layup. Instead they overthought it, panicked and went TERROR HEEL which had the London bombings not forced them, the character would have been done in a few weeks anyway.
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May 10, 2018 15:26
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ChrisBTY posted:I'm not entirely sure that that strategy wouldn't get the other faces booed and JBL cheered. Maybe I'm underestimating WWE's core demographic. that's sort of why I added "also make him as nice and wholesome as humanly possible and give him an adorable puppy," just to make absolutely sure it gets through to all the dumb-dumbs that Hassan is The Good Guy in the feud. make him Face Cena but brown. if they wanna bail on WWE because WWE had a nice muslim guy on it, that's a bad look for them, not for WWE as far as better choices for the gimmick: i'm actually not sure if there were any Middle Eastern wrestlers at all working then other than Iron Sheik (ancient) and Sami (still green as gently caress and only a couple years into the Generico gimmick), but WWE doesn't really have that as an excuse given the PC exists and OVW existed (I mean they pulled Hassan out of OVW in the first place) WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 19:59 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 19:56
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:the fact that you think "muslim people shouldn't be discriminated against" and "9/11 was extremely good" are equivalent or even remotely similar thoughts kind of worries me i dont think that. i am making a joke about his tna theme literally starting with a plane crash. or daivari's did, anyway, i forget if hassan had a tna stint.
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May 10, 2018 20:02
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Endorph posted:i dont think that. i am making a joke about his tna theme literally starting with a plane crash. or daivari's did, anyway, i forget if hassan had a tna stint. ... oh. that was Daivari, Hassan retired from wrestling for like 13 years after his WWE run and only recently started popping back up in the indies a little.
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May 10, 2018 20:08
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That moment when Hassan entered the Royal Rumble, did a taunt, and then immediately got tossed out by nine other people was funny
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May 10, 2018 20:44
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Bring Hassan back, change nothing except for his theme, and make it a copy of this. He'll be a face within six weeks. (Part of his heel bit was that the undulations at the start of his WWE theme were really good at irritating interruptions)
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May 11, 2018 02:35
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:which is why you... just make him a goddamn face from the start. have Cena and the other top guys side with him and be like "yeah, most muslim people are totally fine," and have the people trying to fight that be the most unlikeable dickbag heels on the roster (JBL would have been a good choice around the time). Imagine face Hassan working against alt-right Heel Swagger.
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May 11, 2018 05:41
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Find something you hate more than Gail hates WWE https://twitter.com/gailkimITSME/status/994586072041644032
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May 11, 2018 07:33
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:which is why you... just make him a goddamn face from the start. have Cena and the other top guys side with him and be like "yeah, most muslim people are totally fine," and have the people trying to fight that be the most unlikeable dickbag heels on the roster (JBL would have been a good choice around the time). They're more of less doing this with Mustafa Ali, aren't they? Complete with Daivari on the same show as a direct foil to compare him to. I keep thinking a feud between them where Daivari basically accused Ali of being an Uncle Tom selling out Arab-Americans by catering to THESE PEOPLE would be really great. Although that thought has faded a bit what with the entirely predictable DEATH THREATS the poor man got. The fact that there was a more-than-zero chance both of them could have been murdered for that segment because of where they did it is really upsetting. Also, today I was reminded Balor came out with the LGBT Community and WWE lit up the Superdome with rainbow lights in a show of inclusivity and support for gay people everywhere. And their next event was in SAUDI ARABIA and they're doing propaganda about how progressive the country is. Lita is even righter than she thought she was.
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May 12, 2018 07:49
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