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The thing is... there's a lot of upsetting things about this. The discrimination against women and WWE treating that as "respect people's cultures." The propaganda of a bad state. The Iran stuff writing storylines that feed into life and death world issues as a minstrel show to a King. Sami Zayn effectively being punished for giving a poo poo and being a good person trying to help people in this world, who happen to be some of the people KSA are hurting and hate. Its outrageous to me and a line I genuinely never imagined WWE crossing for as bad as they are. But like... for the most part we all generally agree with that, no? That wasn't really the point of debate or thing I felt was worth discussing. My thing was the whole "condemn it but then handwave it away to a compartmentalized place so it doesn't affect our enjoyment" thing. But by opening a separate thread for it so it doesn't bother people in the WWE Discussion thread who don't want to think about it... didn't we just decide that issue?
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May 4, 2018 05:54
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Well I think that was my round about point. I mean, I don't agree that "WWE Discussion" doesn't include this. Its not a "WWE Storylines Discussion" and never has been. And that was really my argument. Compartmentalizing this means "out of sight out of mind." And that's what we did, isn't it? So as you said, unless we start establishing some kind of movement for change all we're doing is endlessly discussing how disgusted we all are. I think my contributions in that thread were less about "this is bad" and more about "no, its wrong for us to push it aside so we can enjoy the show." But the community has spoken and it is what it is. If I'm worth what I'd like to be I'll find a way to take this somewhere like you suggested. I admit I'm often a passive, morally compromising, lovely person.
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May 4, 2018 06:33
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Gaz-L posted:I think the issue there is that at that point the argument stops being about WWE and the KSA and turns into condemning individuals. Basically at the end of the derail, it was becoming "YOU PERSONALLY are a BAD PERSON if you don't immediately cancel the WWE Network, the cable package that has USA on it, and burn all your wrestling merch", which is at best counterproductive, and at worst is going to be actively antagonistic if the people hearing it have very personal reasons for watching. Like, me, I'm a wrestling fan because of my late father. It was one of the few things we had in common, and a thing we'd watch together when I was little, and watching it gives me a little connection to him now. Now on an intellectual level I can understand the argument that you were making, but when the ire is aimed at ME and not WWE, it becomes very hard to disentangle those feelings and not feel like I'm being personally attacked for that connection. I certainly got the impression a few other people were uncomfortable for similar reasons. But of course that's easier said than done. And I'm certainly not qualified to force a bunch of posters on a messageboard to do it. Gaz-L posted:And finally, IF this was a commercial show, and WWE had ANY leverage in pulling out (ie, that it would cost the Saudi economy X amount to not have the show) then I can see trying to organise a campaign to alert sponsors, a la the Moolah thing, but these are sold shows. WWE pulling out would have literally no impact to the KSA and say nothing to them. They'd just get the UFC or Impact or someone to come instead. I'm not saying you should do it. Its totally up to you. But I think saying "WWE I'm done with you because of all these things but especially X" is totally fair.
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May 4, 2018 20:25
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Yeah, I guess it comes down to the fact that I think "WWE can never do anything that would make me stop supporting them" is a stance worth digging into and really questioning, and is a real matter of "moral consumption" that matters, and that if you're mad about it that seems more about cognitive dissonance. But like... I'm not a TOTAL prick and I'm not gonna harass someone with it after they make it clear they're not interested in talking about it. And that's what happened so there we are. Re: Boycotts. I don't think boycotts ever really lead to a corporation "learning something." Its just about putting enough pressure on them to do the right thing for the only reason they care about, money. And once the right thing has been done, regardless of motivation, hopefully that has a positive cascading effect. "WWE" is probably never going to become "good" but forcing them to do the "right thing" is still a win for the side of good. Its just "The Racist Tree."
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May 4, 2018 23:11
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I don't know what "this isn't a VKM thing" really means. I don't think anyone here was under the thought process that KSA is just a pet project of Vince that the WWE is singlehandedly trying to help. But that doesn't change anything WWE has done or any of the criticisms about it. Other people taking money from the Saudi Royal Family is totally a thing WWE is late to the party on. But they're here now. And this is a forum about wrestling and WWE. Like, Harvey Weinstein and Larry Nassar are both monsters who abused many women and girls. But one might get more attention in a sports forum and one might get more attention in a TV/Film forum because that's what they care about.
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May 4, 2018 23:29
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cams posted:i mean i find 90% of wwe content to be legitimately unwatchable, so it's easier for me to say, but yeah it is gross to continue to give wwe money Yeah, a big part of why I'm not really comfortable with the "boycott" thing is because I wasn't really watching WWE or giving them money before so for me to act like I'm "boycotting" them because I cut back the little I do watch feels kind of bullshit. Peanut President posted:I ain't arguing it's good I'm just saying people are zooming in like Vince personally said "lets go to Saudi Arabia on a field trip" I just want people to have the full picture because I feel they're missing it I actually assume Vince has a lot less say in this sort of decision these days and I think its very clear that Triple H and Stephanie are hugely "guilty" in this, not to mention lots of other board members or people with power in WWE, including probably a number of wrestlers. I mean HHH has outright personally done this propaganda himself. But I think its save to say Vince wasn't the one who made the call about Sami Zayn and if I was being harsh I'd question why no wrestlers speak out in support of one of their peers and morals I hope they have. But Vince isn't my boogedy man and I don't think I've said his name once during my posts on these topics. I'm not sure singling out individuals is really fair or the point. "WWE" is the bad guy and WWE is way beyond Vince now. Its beyond "Steph and HHH" too. Its a massive corporation and I'm treating it as such. I'm not treating it as the plaything of a rich elderly megalomaniac or the carnival pasttime of a niche bunch of fans. Its a billion dollar machine that seriously affects the world. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 23:40 on May 4, 2018 |
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May 4, 2018 23:34
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It actually really surprises me that people still see WWE in terms of "Vince McMahon's circus." Like, its become such a massive global multi media billion dollar machine that spends billions of dollars in politics and bought one of the most important seats in the US Government. I think that's a big part of this conflict. The way some people brought Sinclair into the conversation I think was tied to that where "Sinclair" is more of a corporate boogedyman to some than WWE is. I was watching WWF in 1996 too so I get it. But WWE in 2018 is just something else entirely. In a lot of ways I think its like people who can never really hold their children accountable for their actions because they can never truly see them as anything but the kids they were.
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May 4, 2018 23:48
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Apropos of nothing else (I'll wait for the "See, WWE changed the world!" takes) I'm overwhelmed by the string of sources on that.
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May 5, 2018 00:25
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You can get lost in "how do I truly change the world" and either decide its all hopeless or do the "so I might as well not worry about it" thing a lot of WWE fans are arguing. Or you can go the "help where I can, do what I can, change the world in small ways every day" which might not actually be a course to changing the world in any noticeable way but is probably the best life philosophy you can adopt short of throwing it all away and just dedicating your life to a cause. Which I think is where "cancel your sub, voice your displeasure" becomes a worthwhile option. Will it change KSA? No. Will it change WWE? Probably not either. Maybe it will start a chain event that does change something. Or maybe its just you doing what you think is right. IF you think its right. Again, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. You gotta make that decision for yourself. But you should definitely avoid the "I can't do anything" or "I need to do everything" paths.
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May 5, 2018 21:37
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Onmi posted:He's not wrong but he's missing the point. No, it's no ones right to be booked on any card, male or female. The issue here isn't that the WWE didn't book any female talent, it's that they were not allowed to book any female talent. Similarly, house shows where said talent would have worked and made money were canceled, they deserve to be compensated. Yeah, JR's argument is an idiotic conflation of two completely different things. No one "deserves" a spot on a card (within reason). But everyone deserves equal opportunity to earn one. If you don't provide that its called "discrimination." The women were not. Hence, criticism. The fact that they were financially compensated for being discriminated against as if that makes up for it is kind of gross. Especially when it was probably just a way for WWE to avoid this turning into a bigger problem for them. Also the fact that WWE wasn't allowed to book female talent is Saudi Arabia's sin. The fact that WWE didn't take a stand for its female employees and morality in general is WWE's sin. The fact we don't take a stand is our sin.
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May 6, 2018 03:31
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Gaz-L posted:Given that Sami did work Saudi house shows before, I think it was less his ethnicity specifically, and more his charity work that made him taboo. Yeah, his ethnicity might have been a factor but his humanitarian work with the victims of KSA's victims was most certainly the bigger one. But you know, that's fine. WWE is just respecting cultural differences about crimes against humanity.
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May 6, 2018 19:45
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