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Inflammatory posted:it's a retcon if it contradicts previously established information. we've been told basically nothing about the blue spider lily up until now so there's really nothing to contradict. also it's not really "making muzan an idiot" so much as " making it abundantly clear that muzan's ultimate downfall was always his own selfishness/paranoia/ego;" like if he'd formed genuine bonds with humans or just not been a complete psycho he might've found it, but because he adamantly refused to let any of his minions go without a failsafe that lets him kill them at will, he was doomed from the start. It's this
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May 16, 2020 22:19
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Patware posted:it's a piece of new information that significantly changes the context of previous plot points. in this case, if the spoilers are accurate, we have learned in the very last chapter that muzan's quest for the macguffin flower was futile all along and he was never ever going to succeed It literally is not. Retroactive continuity is when you change a preexisting bit of fact in a story in order to fit within the new continuity. We knew Muzan was trying to find the Lily, but were never told why he failed. We now know why he failed, and that additional context drives home the tragedy. It does not change the existing facts of the story, just adds context.
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May 16, 2020 22:50
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both of these definitions of retcon are correct
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May 16, 2020 23:05
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no, as has been repeatedly explained, your definition is completely incorrect. you are wrong. maybe in the depths of tvtropes a retcon is the same as an explanation you don't like, but that isn't true anywhere else.
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May 16, 2020 23:12
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/retcon-history-and-meaning Quick history lesson on the term 
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May 16, 2020 23:18
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While everything that's been mentioned so far is interesting as part of the "curtain being drawn down on the story" discussion, here's my favorite thing about that whole thing: Even with the colored swords, the rays of the sun and the Kochou murder-cocktail, the biggest obstacle in Muzan's path was himself. It all comes back to Muzan getting in his own way. That's the sweetest loving thing. 
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May 16, 2020 23:23
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:no, as has been repeatedly explained, your definition is completely incorrect. you are wrong. maybe in the depths of tvtropes a retcon is the same as an explanation you don't like, but that isn't true anywhere else. i don't use that garbage website additive retcon is absolutely a thing. it's just not something that makes people post furiously on usenet and get sweaty and upset so it isn't as popularized. and ultimately my issue is with undermining muzan after the fact, rather than everyone getting mad that words mean a lot of different things. this plot point would have been way more interesting if it existed in the story rather than an offhand epilogue legdrop
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May 16, 2020 23:46
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Patware posted:i don't use that garbage website Do you think the story of Oedipus involves a retcon because we don't learn until later in the story that he was the Son of Laius? What you are describing here is dramatic irony. The thing the villain sought was forever from his grasp and he died without even knowing it. It is a sad coda to his story that doesn't change anything about what previously happened in continuity within the story.
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May 17, 2020 00:45
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Patware posted:i don't use that garbage website That is still not a Retcon. A Retcon requires changing something. This is just a reveal.
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May 17, 2020 04:44
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So did Muzan just stop having a wife and daughter at some point? Did he eat them or something when he found out about Nezuko being immune to sunlight? Because while maybe not a retcon, it's definitely something that came up and never went anywhere. BTW Patware, it's time to back down, you're not going to convince anyone, but especially not like this.
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May 17, 2020 05:25
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Bible Ian Black posted:So did Muzan just stop having a wife and daughter at some point? Did he eat them or something when he found out about Nezuko being immune to sunlight? Because while maybe not a retcon, it's definitely something that came up and never went anywhere. Pretty sure he ditched them early in the series. Maybe when he was living as a Woman, and for sure when he was living as a child.
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May 17, 2020 05:31
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theGrooseofLegend posted:But Muzan IS a complete idiot
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May 17, 2020 06:24
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Patware posted:i don't use that garbage website thank you for doiing the legwork and geting sweaty and upset about it here so furture generations wont be deprived of the term "additive retcon"
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May 17, 2020 06:26
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Muzan loving sucked but was very strong Like a goku with no friends who was evil. Wow, what a loser. 
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May 17, 2020 09:37
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An infinite loser, you might say!
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May 17, 2020 10:37
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muzan's family was a prop. he didn't give a poo poo about them because he didn't give a poo poo about anyone. it's equally possible that he ghosted, butchered, or demonified them.
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May 17, 2020 15:42
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Muzan having a family would have been an interesting development so of course this manga didn't pursue it
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May 17, 2020 15:47
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muzan having a family he genuinely loved would undermine the themes of the manga for the sake of some wishy-washy attempt at moral ambiguity, he has never been painted as anything other than a deranged manchild who is incapable of caring about anyone but himself. it is the source of every problem in his life and his ultimate undoing. he is an object of pity to be contrasted with tanjirou and nezuko, who by this point have both been turned into demons themselves, but were able to overcome their transformations and find redemption through the bonds of love they had formed.
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May 17, 2020 16:29
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The "monster has a fake family he uses as a front but secretly cares for" was already done in Fullmetal Alchemist with Fuhrer King Bradley and Selim. I'm sure it's been done in other stories too.
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May 17, 2020 16:41
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My babies are happy and so I'm happy too, more or less That's quite the wall the kamados have
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May 17, 2020 17:19
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Ubayashiki living to a ridiculous age after the curse is lifted is great.
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May 17, 2020 17:23
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Sindai posted:Ubayashiki living to a ridiculous age after the curse is lifted is great.
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May 17, 2020 17:35
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The cat lived.  I kind of agree that I'm tired of Harry Potter endings, but it doesn't invalidate the rest of the series being enjoyable.
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May 17, 2020 18:08
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i don't think literally everyone needed to reincarnate in the same town. it really detracts from the message of mortality being part of human life when the very next chapter is 'lol jk you'll live again eventually, nbd'.
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May 17, 2020 18:11
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i don't think literally everyone needed to reincarnate in the same town. it really detracts from the message of mortality being part of human life when the very next chapter is 'lol jk you'll live again eventually, nbd'. Did any of the demons get reincarnated?
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May 17, 2020 18:25
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Lurking Haro posted:Did any of the demons get reincarnated? Nope they all went to Hell.
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May 17, 2020 18:40
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:muzan's family was a prop. he didn't give a poo poo about them because he didn't give a poo poo about anyone. it's equally possible that he ghosted, butchered, or demonified them.
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May 17, 2020 18:52
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MonsterEnvy posted:Nope they all went to Hell. Thanks for underlining my point.
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May 17, 2020 18:57
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So it's over now, right? MAL says it goes for two more chapters but that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
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May 17, 2020 19:01
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Viz version is out. Ending feels kinda rushed and schmaltzy but it's not bad. Less annoying than Bleach's ending for sure. Really I would've preferred to see the actual original characters in the last chapter instead of their descendants but uhhh you probably couldn't show much past the next decade for the originals without getting uncomfortable unless everyone retreated to Inosuke's mountain and hid.
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May 17, 2020 19:05
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at least he ran from the cops, displaying wisdom
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May 17, 2020 19:14
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Fabricated posted:Viz version is out. Ending feels kinda rushed and schmaltzy but it's not bad. Less annoying than Bleach's ending for sure. I can't believe Zenitsu participated in war crimes in Nanjing.
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May 17, 2020 19:24
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I read this comment in the other place but now it's bothering since I read the actual ch: So a descendant of Tanjiro x Kanao and a descendant of Nezuko x Zenitsu got together? I wish I didn't see that b/c now I'm even more conflicted 
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May 17, 2020 19:31
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Alder posted:I read this comment in the other place but now it's bothering since I read the actual ch: So a descendant of Tanjiro x Kanao and a descendant of Nezuko x Zenitsu got together?
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May 17, 2020 19:41
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I really feel like she phoned in that ending, but overall I think the story and characterization was really solid!
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May 17, 2020 20:17
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in the end i really don't know how i feel about the series the characters were pretty uniformly great, the humor was solid, the art interesting, and the basic premise and tone of the story was gripping and generally managed to keep from going overboard the fight scenes were almost always a bit muddled, but nothing terrible the actual plotting of the story was kind of mediocre. it's honestly bizarre, the characters were great but their individual arcs ranged from anemic to non-existent, and any development that did happen almost invariably involved a prolonged flashback. i'm not sure if that's the tool that the mankaga felt most comfortable with, or if it was used explicitly to express some theme, but it gave me this disjointed feeling, as if the characters where all in their end states at the start of the series and nothing on their journey actually had an impact on them as character. inosuke is the one minor exception to this. i think that's part of why it was hard to write a satisfying ending (although those are always difficult). normally you kind of highlight how the characters have changed since their introduction, and otherwise put a cap on their arcs. but you can't do that here, tanjiro and nezuko are essentially the same as they were in the first chapter. overall it was an enjoyable read, but i don't know if i'd ever feel compelled to pick it up and re-read any portions of the story again.
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May 17, 2020 21:25
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it is still fuckin' nuts that inosuke's big fight included him randomly recalling memories from infancy.
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May 17, 2020 21:51
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i really liked how modern zenitsu was somehow even more of a nightmare wait i hated that zenitsu < mineta
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May 17, 2020 22:08
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This was the best 4/10 manga I've read. I wonder how it wouldve gone without executive pressure.
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May 17, 2020 22:11
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I think basically everything up to about halfway into the Infinite Fortress arc was really good 8-9/10 stuff. The one thing from an action writing perspective I think I respect Gotogue for is not being afraid to really gently caress the characters up- yeah they somehow recover mostly from stuff that'd leave you permanently injured but stuff like Tanjirou getting hooked through the loving jaw with a sickle is pretty visceral and a lot of the battle injuries avoided being entirely generic non-fatal slashes and the like. Most of the battles in the series felt appropriately desperate- where you see all these people using breathing techniques to do superhuman moves basically just barely clawing out victories against demons. Tanjirou is a really good MC too IMO, even if his hero's journey isn't much of a journey outside of powerups.
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May 17, 2020 22:21
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