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 It's time to spend basically the whole episode talking about encounter design! Perhaps along the way we'll rediscover religion and ring our first Bell of Awakening.
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Jun 10, 2018 07:28
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I've spent a lot of time playing Dark Souls but I have basically zero understanding of the plot because if I have to stand there while a completely static NPC slowly reads their weird, disjointed lines to you in a fruity accent I will immediately start mashing skip and not retain any of it
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Jun 10, 2018 08:44
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Pig... Gate... what? I've beaten the game four times and had no idea that you can prevent that guy from closing the gate.
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Jun 10, 2018 09:14
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My kids were shoulder surfing me playing this game a few days ago and when a hollowed soldier hopped back from my attack and then took a swig of estus, my kids lost their poo poo. I don't think people who've played Dark Souls for awhile remember some of the small things this game does that are special. Also the first time to the parish is one of the great action, then pause style pacing areas in the game. Petrus can kick rocks though, the patronizing little poo poo. Crane Fist posted:I've spent a lot of time playing Dark Souls but I have basically zero understanding of the plot because if I have to stand there while a completely static NPC slowly reads their weird, disjointed lines to you in a fruity accent I will immediately start mashing skip and not retain any of it This is absolutely a valid way to play the game.
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Jun 10, 2018 09:22
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Well, that was interesting. I had a hell of a time taking down the taurus demon - my attacks just never seemed to do much damage at all, and I ended up just buying a bunch of firebombs and using those at point-blank range instead of my longsword. On the other hand, I went into the gargoyle fight with a +2 claymore and Solaire in tow, expecting to get flame-breathed to death while trying to roll under a halberd swing, but we chumped them almost as fast as you did. The one-handed thrust and two-handed chop/slam are super awesome, are there other better swords like this? I've Tried Parrying a bit with mixed success, but find that screwing up is often so punishing, like 80% of your health bar, that it doesn't seem worthwhile unless you're in a very controlled 1-on-1 situation. I guess I should practise more? I'm guessing you are going to show us what Lautrec does and his eventual comeuppance, but can you also please show off kicking the bastard off the cliff at Firelink?
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Jun 10, 2018 10:25
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Crane Fist posted:I've spent a lot of time playing Dark Souls but I have basically zero understanding of the plot because if I have to stand there while a completely static NPC slowly reads their weird, disjointed lines to you in a fruity accent I will immediately start mashing skip and not retain any of it Going for the obvious joke here, but listening to what all the characters say will probably also leave you with zero understanding of the plot.  The gargoyles gave me a lot of trouble on my first time through. I didn't know you could summon Solaire to help you with them - actually I might not have even known at that point that you had to be human to see summon signs. (Dark Souls being bad at communicating important information to the player is still one of my main criticisms of the series.) Something I also didn't know - that actually allowed me to get past the gargoyles once I learned it (in other words "read about it on the Internet") - is that blocking using a shield with high fire-resistance will protect you from fire-breath really well. I'd assumed that the fire would just flow right around a shield; that made more sense to me. But yeah, I'd given up on fighting the gargoyles for a while and just went exploring, when I was lucky enough to have a particular shield with high fire-resistance drop from a black knight a fair way away. Blocking the gargoyles' fire-breath with that shield got me through the fight. I did a lot of blocking with shields in my first playthrough. Because again, it was a long time before I learned that invincibility frames were a thing. E.g. when dodging. Until then I'd thought that you had to dodge in a way that would actually physically avoid an attack.
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Jun 10, 2018 11:15
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Antistar01 posted:Until then I'd thought that you had to dodge in a way that would actually physically avoid an attack. This is probably the single most unintuitive thing about fighting things in Dark Souls, which is otherwise pretty drat intuitive. Instinctively, most people dodge attacks by rolling away from the swing. In Dark Souls, this means you're traveling with the swing, which means it passes through you more slowly, which means you're a lot more likely to come out of your iframes inside the attack and eat a hit. Instead the correct way to dodge an attack -- at least one that isn't just a poke or overhead straight at you -- is rolling sideways into the swing, ideally while close to the enemy. That way your angular momentum is maximized, so you spend the least amount of time in front of the enemy and inside the attack's collision volume. On difficulty: Dark Souls is hard in the sense that it doesn't really bother to tell you what you can do to make it easier. Most games will explicitly tell you how to beat them and just leave you to handle the execution. Dark Souls tells you nothing, it just kills you until you figure out the right approach. This makes some parts very hard if you're not willing to experiment. Case in point: a lot of people seem to be intent on making their first round through the game a pure melee affair with no spells, bows, or summons. You can do that, sure, but you're also essentially enabling Hard Mode. Dark Souls doesn't explicitly tell you that this is the choice you're making with that playstyle: instead it's just going to repeatedly kill at some points until you persevere through repetition, change your approach to an easier one or give up and play something that doesn't do that. In the current trend of games trying to make all possible approaches equally rewarding and challenging it's fair to say that this makes Dark Souls pretty hard for most people.
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Jun 10, 2018 12:11
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Gargoyle health bar briefly visible in the distance at 29:46. Edit: I thought the game was bugged when you ran into Oswald, I didn't remember him being T-posed. Videogame visual shorthand. Erd fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Jun 10, 2018 |
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Jun 10, 2018 13:54
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I think it's less that you overprepared and more that a two-handed halberd is actually extremely good, most people just don't use it.
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Jun 10, 2018 15:29
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Praise the Sun!
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Jun 10, 2018 15:40
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Petrus is a real rear end in a top hat. He overcharges you for miracles, and the first time you can talk to him without him blowing you off entirely he gives you a copper coin, which is worthless. "No, take it, it's yours. I insist!" I have some lore words about the Way of White and how miracles work behind these here spoiler bars. The sources are mostly item descriptions and conjecture. Nothing major is revealed. The Way of White was founded by Gwyn's uncle, Allfather Lloyd, and they want to prolong the Age of Fire by kindling bonfires with humanity. They hate the Undead Curse, and have established an order of Knights to hunt them down (and presumably put them away, in some sort of Asylum). Miracles, according to Heal's item description, are stories of the saints performing a miracle. You believe the story, and so you use your faith to reproduce it, since you believe it can be done. This is only hinted at, and is one of my favorite things about Souls magic. In a sense, a Christian cleric could perform the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes by telling the story and believing its veracity. I just think it's neat. So, Andre and Solaire are from the same place, huh? Fascinating.
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Jun 10, 2018 17:41
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Tasteful Dickpic posted:
It's a pretty interesting twist to the usual fantasy convention of gods existing because people believe in them. instead it's the magic that runs on belief and the stories of miracles function like spells, so instead of reciting the right words and performing the right gestures you just find the right section in scripture and try to make it happen.
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Jun 10, 2018 18:54
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anilEhilated posted:Pig... Gate... what? Another example is in Dark Souls 2 where a certain axe-wielding hollow will always start with a jump attack...from around a corner, in a narrow hallway. Other enemies might be programmed to always aggro at the same time, so it's literally impossible for you to separate them with ranged weapons; or an enemy will wait around a corner juuust long enough for you to engage a buddy so they can pincer you, instead of dumbly attacking as soon as you get in range. It really shows an astounding amount of care put into every single placement, where they don't just design the level to support the placement, then place them smartly, no, they also make them act specifically to support the placement in a way I've never really seen before, at least consciously. I mean, in Resident Evil the dogs jump through the windows, that is a specific movement associated with placement, so it's not unprecedented or anything, but still, Dark Souls really turns it into an artform. By the way, the guy closing the gate won't respawn after you killed him, meaning that once you open the gate (or prevent him from closing it), it'll stay open, making the shortcut permanent! And another thing: if you insist on tackling things head-on, you can; CJacobs already pulled the balder knights carefully out of the church and dealt with them, so going through the front door is perfectly doable. If you don't pull them individually, they'll gently caress you up though. And if you manage to prevail against two (or three!) of them at once against all odds, then you carefully walk up to the giant dude guarding the Firekeeper Soul...and get sniped in the back by the Channeler. Ask me how I know. Lesson learned: take the back way, you loving moron.
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Jun 10, 2018 18:58
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White Coke posted:It's a pretty interesting twist to the usual fantasy convention of gods existing because people believe in them. instead it's the magic that runs on belief and the stories of miracles function like spells, so instead of reciting the right words and performing the right gestures you just find the right section in scripture and try to make it happen. It's not the case in Dark Souls 1, but miracles scale with Faith. So if you literally believe more in religious truth and are better at telling stories about the saints, you can heal more and throw better lightning spears.
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Jun 10, 2018 19:14
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Hello! Count another viewer who's never played Dark Souls nor ever watched an LP of it (I prefer LPs by people who know what they're doing which is why I haven't bothered with semi-blind ones). My first question: Apparently we're in a land that's full of evil creatures that try to kill everything that's even a bit human. You need to be incredibly brave and to be a decent warrior to go anywhere. I'd expect people to not go here unless they have very important business here... Yet there's all these people running shops or smithying or whatever, and apparently they're able to make a 'living'. Does the game ever make sense of this or is this just a gameplay element we should accept because it's necessary for the overall game design?
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Jun 10, 2018 19:40
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Have you ever seen Red Dwarf? Because everybody's dead, Dave.
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Jun 10, 2018 19:53
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They accept only Souls as currency, because if you have enough Souls, you'll stay sane. Basically, they're providing services so other people collect Souls for them, instead of having to go out themselves and trying to steal Souls from mindless Hollows themselves.
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Jun 10, 2018 19:59
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Carbon dioxide posted:Hello! Count another viewer who's never played Dark Souls nor ever watched an LP of it (I prefer LPs by people who know what they're doing which is why I haven't bothered with semi-blind ones). Time in Lordran is... weird. Solaire hinted at it, that "heroes centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure". This is largely a figleaf explanation for PvP mechanics, like cooperation. But it also means that there are many Lordrans, laid on top of each other, and many Cursed Undeads running about and buying things from merchants. If we were in online mode we would see ghosts of other player characters running around. We know that the Crestfallen Warrior has at least tried to ring the Bells, so did he also come here to fulfill Oscar's prophecy? I assume that the merchants (especially Male Undead Merchant) came here to make a buck, since there are apparently lots of Hollows here, accumulating souls to try and keep their wits about them. I could say so much more, but that would be spoilers.
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Jun 10, 2018 20:07
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Simply Simon posted:They accept only Souls as currency, because if you have enough Souls, you'll stay sane. Basically, they're providing services so other people collect Souls for them, instead of having to go out themselves and trying to steal Souls from mindless Hollows themselves. It helps, that everyone is batshit insane or is getting there. Keheheheeee...
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Jun 10, 2018 20:08
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Carbon dioxide posted:Hello! Count another viewer who's never played Dark Souls nor ever watched an LP of it (I prefer LPs by people who know what they're doing which is why I haven't bothered with semi-blind ones). Well, Rickert was stuck behind bars so he doesn't have much to do otherwise. The Undead Merchant is presumably a former resident considering he has a residence key, but even if he's not he explains pretty well that it's better you collect souls for him than he goes to get them himself. Andre, well, he's his own dude we will learn a little about along the way. Either way, Simply Simon has a pretty solid explanation!
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Jun 10, 2018 20:09
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There's a lady merchant we're going to run into later who explains this nicely. But the non-adventurers we run into pretty clearly don't have a choice about being around Lordran. Everyone else we meet is after something.
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Jun 11, 2018 01:32
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 Welcome back, Patchouli! It's time to take Lordran by storm just like old times in this alternate playthrough where we go about things the hard way!
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Jun 11, 2018 17:49
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This is, technically, your fourth concurrent LP? (It's a bonus feature, yes, but it's still a bunch of work to record and edit.) Sky Boat watch over you and your admirable work ethic, CJacobs.
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Jun 11, 2018 19:15
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gently caress yeah, Dr. Pepper!
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Jun 12, 2018 04:42
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Now this seems like an interesting take on things.
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Jun 12, 2018 06:38
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CJacobs I object to your interpretation of what the typical player would walk into the gargoyles with because I went in there without knowing about kindling bonfires (so only 5 flasks), what fire keepers souls did, that I had to be human to summon NPC phantoms (or that NPC phantoms even existed), and without finding Andre. If you want some tips on what constitutes an actual terrible Dark Souls game, I can give you the goods. Edit: I could also not have understood weight limits so I may have even had the fat roll. Kibayasu fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 07:27
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Kibayasu posted:CJacobs I object to your interpretation of what the typical player would walk into the gargoyles with because I went in there without knowing about kindling bonfires (so only 5 flasks), what fire keepers souls did, that I had to be human to summon NPC phantoms (or that NPC phantoms even existed), and without finding Andre. If you want some tips on what constitutes an actual terrible Dark Souls game, I can give you the goods. did you not notice that you had 10 flasks when resting at the Firelink bonfire and 5 when resting at the Parish? (I actually mostly agree with you. It's a good social game because sherpa-ing someone through the game can be rewarding in it's own way)
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Jun 12, 2018 08:18
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Welcome back, Patchy!
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Jun 12, 2018 09:32
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I noticed the extra flasks from firelink and just assumed it was a home territory bonus for a while.
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Jun 12, 2018 11:51
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Jonny Nox posted:did you not notice that you had 10 flasks when resting at the Firelink bonfire and 5 when resting at the Parish? I did, but I think I just figured Firelink was a special bonfire. I know its pre-kindled now but back then it was like "What's this option? I need humanity? Doesn't humanity mean I can be invaded? Well I won't do that then!" *proceeds to Blighttown before looking anything up*
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Jun 13, 2018 06:53
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This is a good LP. LPer: "If you look hard enough this game tells you everything you need to know" Literally everyone in the thread: "No it doesn't"
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Jun 13, 2018 07:02
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When you know about the systems in the game you can look back and see where the game tries to teach new players some of those systems, but sometimes those teaching moments are only visible if you already know about a given system and thus know what to look for/immediately understand what the game's getting at
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Jun 13, 2018 07:07
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That's what I brought up in the bonus feature when I was running around with the dragon. A lot of the things that make sense to you after you've already made the mistakes and learned from them are intended to be done in that order. My point was that even if it's obfuscated, you can still tell why you made the mistakes and what you could have done to avoid them. So that even in hindsight you can look at the encounter and say okay, that wasn't bullshit, because there was a method, I just didn't see it. You always have a way to avoid the pitfall and if you fall for it anyway then that method of avoiding it is always there for the next time around.
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Jun 13, 2018 07:59
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A lot of those teachings are very La-Mulana. There is, theoretically, a tablet telling you how to solve the puzzle, but chances are you need to already know the puzzle solution for the cryptic hint to make sense.
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Jun 13, 2018 08:02
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I think a key example would be the black knight standing at the top of the tower just after the bridge. Unless you know he's there, you probably aren't going to slowly walk your way up the stairs so you don't immediately aggro him before you can see him. Unless you're omniscient or playing very very cautiously, you're probably going to jog right up there and get pasted. But the lesson to learn from doing so is "be real careful going around blind corners with no escape"- something the game is fine with penalizing you for not doing the first time it's relevant because there's a bonfire real close by. edit: After every death or really any slip-up, the game encourages you to ask "how could I have avoided that, what can I do to keep that from happening next time" and even if it's an encounter that took you by complete surprise I think it's admirable that the answer is never "nothing". It's got mean tricks, yes, and stuff abounds that you would fall for the first time guaranteed unless you thought about it in a very esoteric way, but being able to point at something and say "next time I'll do this instead" is really really important and I think people vastly undervalue it when talking about whether the game is artificially difficult or not. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 08:06
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Yes, I think the point of the discussion on artificial difficulty is moot, since the game often throws curveballs at you and expects you to get murdered by them the first time. It is teaching you two things like that; one: there is next to 0 penalty to dying, you'll be doing a lot of it, strap in, bucko; two: it slowly teaches you the tenets of its level design. But it does so primarily through trial, error, repetition and iteration, which goes well with the lack of penalty for death. You're not "supposed" to figure everything out on your first try and avoid every trap. If you play carefully, you'll avoid many. Others you won't and will kill you. That's ingrained into the design philosophy. Repetition. The big problem, to me, is how obscure it is with its mechanics. How it explains so little of how to actually play it beyond basic controls.
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Jun 13, 2018 08:39
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I do agree with that. Dark Souls is notoriously poor at telling you the minutiae of the controls and mechanics. For a Dark Souls 2 example, you are never actually told about the stat requirements of power stancing (we'll get there), they just tell you that you can do it, and the character class that's based around doing so doesn't start with a weapon they can power stance with. Thanks?? 
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Jun 13, 2018 08:42
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Do they tell you you can do it? One of my friends played through the entire game and had never heard of it.
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Jun 13, 2018 09:25
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I think there's a headstone in the tutorial area that says it?? Hell, maybe they don't even bother in which case that's even worse!
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Jun 13, 2018 09:31
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What the hell is power stancing
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Jun 13, 2018 09:44
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