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He's yellow. We have eyes
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Jun 2, 2018 23:17
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| # ? May 10, 2024 18:50 |
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I love that the entire poem is a blatant misdirection. You see upfront that he's Yellow after all!
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Jun 2, 2018 23:18
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But we've also just seen that the moon is full, therefore he should be Orange. He automatically forfeits for posing a paradoxical riddle, and we get to eat him.
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Jun 2, 2018 23:22
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Yellow. My work: I am not blind.
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Jun 3, 2018 00:05
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July 15, 2011 is a full moon, so he's orange.
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Jun 3, 2018 00:06
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That's the trick - he tells you all this about some other tiger, but asks you what colour he himself is, which is yellow.
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Jun 3, 2018 00:38
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I found some unused concept art of Tostien meddling in an unscrupulous fighting tournament
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Jun 3, 2018 14:37
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Level One: Baby's First Logic Puzzle Seriously, this one was even easier than I remembered it being.
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Jun 3, 2018 16:53
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He's red. He doesn't breathe fire, so he's neither dragon nor wyvern, and he has fangs, so he's not a vegetarian. Easy peasy.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:00
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No, he's A wyvern. Just not a red one. Not a vegetarian and not a dragon either of course. edit: Actually no he's just red. I should have written out the logic on paper instead of trying to do in my head
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Jun 3, 2018 17:06
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It does not breathe fire; that rules out being a dragon or a red wyvern. It has fangs; that rules out being a vegetarian. Since it is not a dragon, it must be red or a vegetarian; since it is not a vegetarian, it must be red. But it cannot then be a wyvern, because a red wyvern breathes fire. Therefore, NOT a dragon, NOT a vegetarian, YES red, NOT a wyvern.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:07
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It does not breathe fire; that rules out being a dragon or a red wyvern. It has fangs; that rules out being a vegetarian. Since it is not a dragon, it must be red or a vegetarian; since it is not a vegetarian, it must be red. But it cannot then be a wyvern, because a red wyvern breathes fire. Therefore, NOT a dragon, NOT a vegetarian, YES red, NOT a wyvern. He could be a wyvern that's not red.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:12
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ultrafilter posted:He could be a wyvern that's not red.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:15
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ultrafilter posted:He could be a wyvern that's not red. Since non-dragons are either vegetarians or red, any not-red wyvern must be vegetarian, which he is not. Interesting that this puzzle sets up options that aren't mutually exclusive (puzzle logic aside), but limits you to only one answer.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:21
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Zereth posted:Are wyverns vegetarians, then? Not if they have fangs, but the puzzle doesn't specify that. It seems like a reasonable assumption, but it should be documented along with all of the other facts given if you're going to use it to make conclusions. Tenebrais posted:Since non-dragons are either vegetarians or red, any not-red wyvern must be vegetarian, which he is not. OK, I missed that.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:39
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In other words, the true solution is that this puzzle just isn't very well written.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:42
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Adamant posted:In other words, the true solution is that this puzzle just isn't very well written. No, there's enough information to determine the answer to all of the questions posed.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:44
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Why is nobody asking this voice why he doesn't know what he is? Poor thing doesn't know what colour or species he is. And you'd think by the time he learns speech he's figured out his diet... (this is why I am terrible with logic puzzles)
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Jun 3, 2018 17:47
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Black Robe posted:Why is nobody asking this voice why he doesn't know what he is? Poor thing doesn't know what colour or species he is. And you'd think by the time he learns speech he's figured out his diet... The invisible thing even specified which wizard.
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Jun 3, 2018 17:59
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Zereth posted:A wizard did it. Or maybe the creature deserved it. He doesn't exactly remember, after all.
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Jun 3, 2018 18:22
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ultrafilter posted:No, there's enough information to determine the answer to all of the questions posed. As others have pointed out, we know he's not a red wyvern since he can't breathe fire, but there's nothing in the writing that excludes him being a wyvern of a different color, and the option you can pick says "wyvern", not "red wyvern". It could've absolutely been worded better.
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Jun 3, 2018 19:22
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Adamant posted:As others have pointed out, we know he's not a red wyvern since he can't breathe fire, but there's nothing in the writing that excludes him being a wyvern of a different color, and the option you can pick says "wyvern", not "red wyvern". It could've absolutely been worded better. It says if he's not a dragon then he's either red or a vegetarian, but he can't be a vegetarian if he has fangs (which he has), so if he was a wyvern he'd have to be a red wyvern, which breathes fire, which we know he can't.
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Jun 3, 2018 19:26
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The Voice is not a dragon, as it does not breathe fire, and if it were a dragon, it would breathe fire. It is not a vegetarian, as it has fangs, which disqualify it from being a vegetarian. It is both not a dragon and not vegetarian, so it must be red. And, knowing it is red, we know it is not a wyvern, as it would breathe fire if it were a red wyvern.
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Jun 3, 2018 20:09
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Therefore, by simple process of elimination, he can only be a red vegetable.
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Jun 3, 2018 20:48
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Adamant posted:As others have pointed out, we know he's not a red wyvern since he can't breathe fire, but there's nothing in the writing that excludes him being a wyvern of a different color, and the option you can pick says "wyvern", not "red wyvern". It could've absolutely been worded better. Here's the full solution where I deduce that he's not a wyvern: Let B denote "I breathe fire", F denote "I have fangs", D denote "I am a dragon", R denote "I am red", W denote "I am a wyvern", and V denote "I am a vegetarian". ~ is logical negation, & is logical and, | is logical or, and -> is logical implication. The information the voice gives us can be encoded as follows: 1. I do not breathe fire: ~B 2. I definitely have fangs: F 3. If I were a dragon or a red wyvern, I would breathe fire: D | (R & W) -> B 4. I could be a vegetarian, unless I have fangs: F -> ~V 5. If I am NOT a dragon then I must either be red or a vegetarian: ~D -> (R | V) Here's what we can deduce: 6. ~V (from 2 and 4, modus ponens) 7. ~D & ~(R & W) (from 1 and 3, modus tollens, de Morgan's law) 8. ~D (from 7, conjunction elimination) 9. R | V (from 5 and 8, modus ponens) 10. R (from 6 and 9, disjunctive syllogism) 11. ~R | ~W (from 7, conjunction elimination, de Morgan's law) 12. ~W (from 10, 11, disjunctive syllogism) 13. ~D & ~V & R & ~W (from 6, 8, 10, 12, conjunction introduction) ultrafilter fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jun 3, 2018 |
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Jun 3, 2018 21:40
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ultrafilter posted:Here's the full solution where I deduce that he's not a wyvern: That reasoning is fully sound. It's sobering how many steps some of the deductions I'd normally make directly actually take when you use the formalisms. In particular, I jumped to is red basically while reading the problem, and that's both step 10 and relies on all 9 previous steps.
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Jun 3, 2018 22:00
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There actually is one piece there where you could quibble. A unless B is usually translated as ~B -> A (see, e.g., page 6 here). If I followed that convention, "I could be a vegetarian, unless I have fangs" would be ~F -> V, and the only thing we can conclude is D & (V | ~W). However, given the context of the piece, I think the intent is for "I could be a vegetarian, unless I have fangs" to be read as "if I have fangs, I'm not a vegetarian". That also lets you solve the puzzle, so that's further evidence that they meant it that way. And that's not even getting into how to translate "could" besides just ignoring it....
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Jun 3, 2018 23:13
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ultrafilter posted:A unless B is usually translated as ~B -> A A unless B is absolutely not equivalent to ~B -> A, since for B true (and thus ~B false) and A true the latter evaluates to true while the former clearly evaluates to false. The -> operation is false if and only if the first argument is false and the second is true "A unless B" is equivalent to "A if and only if not B": A <-> ~B "maybe A unless B" is equivalent to "if B then not A": B -> ~A
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Jun 3, 2018 23:29
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This is probably way more effort than a puzzle in this game is worth, but I found a book chapter on translating English into the propositional calculus that distinguishes between the weak and strong senses of unless. My first reading was almost the strong sense (it should've been F <-> ~V), but the second reading I discussed is the weak sense. For what it's worth, the logic puzzles on the LSAT apparently only use the weak sense.
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Jun 4, 2018 00:12
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Level One: Gonzaga, Part 1 In which we encounter an old friend, if by "old" we mean we became friends a few PoPs ago. A bit short, but the PoP after this is the Castle Perilous, and it's comparatively gigantic, roughly three times the size and length of the longer preceding PoPs like the tournament. So that one's gonna take a few goes, and this one's technically a puzzle of sorts, so we'll split it in two and then hit up the castle in earnest after getting our peasant asses out of this latest fire.
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Jun 4, 2018 00:14
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Chivalry is why we survived our first encounter with him, before our magic helped us out. We should try to exploit it here. We can expect only cavalier treatment from his comrades though.
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Jun 4, 2018 00:17
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I agree; we've established Gozanga's chivalry. I don't see any other options I'd consider 'reliable'.
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Jun 4, 2018 00:29
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Obviously the way to beat him is to challenge him to a game of Basketball.  Failing that it looks like he doesn't know that we don't have that Elven poo poo anymore so we might be able to bluff him.
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Jun 4, 2018 00:49
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ManxomeBromide posted:Chivalry is why we survived our first encounter with him, before our magic helped us out. We should try to exploit it here. This probably works, but I'm guessing an alternate solution is to use the same Magic word as before. It should work since we're not in the castle yet.
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Jun 4, 2018 00:59
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Yeah, I'd go with using the magic spell Tostien again. Even if it doesn't work, he's not the kind of guy to just murder us where we stand, so we'll probably get the chance to try other stuff as well.
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Jun 4, 2018 02:06
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I know it probably won't work, but... Full on FRIENDSHIP!
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Jun 4, 2018 02:22
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Taunt him by pointing out how he's never won the tournament. Go for a bluff.
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Jun 4, 2018 03:52
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I know it probably won't work, but... Full on FRIENDSHIP!
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Jun 4, 2018 03:57
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Either Tostien or challenge him to a wrestling match.
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Jun 4, 2018 05:24
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Chivalry is the obvious possibility (though it might not work since it's not actually chivalrous to let us pass), but since there's more than one... He's not on a horse this time so we could probably run around him. He's in armor and we're not and it doesn't sound like he's standing at a choke point or anything. Of course that would ruin our relationship but the game doesn't track state so I'm sure it's fine. Also apparently a byrny is a coat of mail. This game is just full of new (or actually very old) words. Qrr fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 08:42
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