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We're wrapping up a DCC funnel tonight and jaunting into the campaign! First I wanted to share this thing I put together a while back - kind of a cheat sheet for leveling from 0 to 1st. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SpkXnSIocQew-1O_07_ELzeOJHB1vxa0gb57212Qa5U/edit?usp=drivesdk Second... I am looking for ideas for a campaign "home zone" where inactive characters can stay and adventures will just come and find them. I explicitly want to avoid any heroic/chosen ones kind of thing because it's loving DCC. I'm open to ideas, lol
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Mar 6, 2024 16:59
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You can't go wrong with a Lankhmar-esque Corrupt Fantasy City. Even if you don't use the setting itself, the DCC Lankhmar box is very good at fleshing out a classic sword and sorcery city environment for your players to explore. Which funnel did you use?
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Mar 6, 2024 17:07
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dwarf74 posted:We're wrapping up a DCC funnel tonight and jaunting into the campaign! I'm partial to ships; the Aubrey Maturin novels have completely sold me on how they can provide a sense of place, of home, and a community, all of it traveling the world, simultaneously self sufficient yet vulnerable. The population is large enough to support a wide cast but small enough that it's still absolutely dwarfed by any town or city. If you're worried it'll be used to solve too many problems and become the campaign focus, medieval knarrs and cogs can have crews of less than a dozen and don't have any weaponry other than what the crew carry.
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Mar 6, 2024 17:09
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dwarf74 posted:We're wrapping up a DCC funnel tonight and jaunting into the campaign! Hirot from Doom of the Savage Kings is a great small town.
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Mar 6, 2024 17:13
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Halloween Jack posted:I didn't touch on the thief skills because that's sort of an ongoing question for me. It seems that the trend in the OSR is to interpret Thief Skills as, to use 3e language, "extraordinary abilities." Anyone can climb or hide, but the Thief can scale sheer surfaces and hide in shadows. But how did most people actually handle it in the years before 3e? Is that 20% chance to find/remove traps instead of, or in addition to an ability check, assuming you're using those? Are other classes incapable of climbing or detecting noises? There's a particular breed of D&D wonk that holds the opinion that the Thief is when it all started going downhill, because it codified a bunch of specific probabilities for success in doing things that everyone should be able to do with sufficient roleplaying. A lot of OSR-style stuff runs into particular problems with the Thief precisely because it gives a rigid mechanical system for doing specific things that otherwise would be covered by trying to convince your DM you totally could climb that wall or describing how clever you are are breaking up sightlines and using camouflage to hide in the darker parts of the room, which is the style otherwise used in negotiating outside the strict rules with the DM. Making the Thief capable of superhuman feats resolves this contradiction by letting the Thief do what nobody "should" be able to convince their DM of otherwise, like how the Fighter's player "shouldn't" be able to convince the DM that his Fighter can cast Fireball, but the Magic-User can cast spells. Though frankly, this all comes from trying to make a cohesive whole out of a bunch of shoddily written rules from the 1970s that lack a coherent vision or design philosophy while being unwilling to innovate or actually fix things with rigid systems or a coherent design philosophy, because both of those things would fundamentally make it "not feel like D&D". There's an inherent contradiction in trying to make a rigid and good rules that also feel like the old, unrigorous rules.
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Mar 6, 2024 17:49
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I agree. The Thief class is self-justifying, and also the first class that's specifically a dungeoneer. Being able to climb and sneak around and pick pockets and locks is all well and good, but "Listen at Doors" is so dungeon-specific that it comes across weird when the game goes beyond the dungeon. "Modular rules that contradict one another and use different mechanics" isn't something I specifically look for in games. That said, "you should spend 20 minutes arguing with the DM about it" is actually worse. I'm skeptical of the idea that a mathematician, an engineer, and a historian arguing about the imaginary mechanism of an imaginary trap in an imaginary pseudo-medieval world counts as "roleplaying." Anyway, I think some of the division between Fighter and Thief was maintained by equipment, since armor is loud. I don't dislike the Thief in concept, though. I dislike the Monk in concept. It fucks with a bunch of things for no real reason because they thought Carl Douglas was funny.
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Mar 6, 2024 18:38
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Lumbermouth posted:You can't go wrong with a Lankhmar-esque Corrupt Fantasy City. Even if you don't use the setting itself, the DCC Lankhmar box is very good at fleshing out a classic sword and sorcery city environment for your players to explore. I dig this idea and I almost went with it except... Jack B Nimble posted:I'm partial to ships; the Aubrey Maturin novels have completely sold me on how they can provide a sense of place, of home, and a community, all of it traveling the world, simultaneously self sufficient yet vulnerable. The population is large enough to support a wide cast but small enough that it's still absolutely dwarfed by any town or city. alg posted:Hirot from Doom of the Savage Kings is a great small town. 
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Mar 6, 2024 19:16
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dwarf74 posted:Starless Sea. It's a revisit for two players but it's been like 5 years. Oh then a ship would be perfect, you've already got one! Maybe have them ride the flood wave to an underground sea and have them adventure in a fungus-lit marine underworld for a while.
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Mar 6, 2024 19:38
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Halloween Jack posted:I agree. The Thief class is self-justifying, and also the first class that's specifically a dungeoneer. Being able to climb and sneak around and pick pockets and locks is all well and good, but "Listen at Doors" is so dungeon-specific that it comes across weird when the game goes beyond the dungeon. "Modular rules that contradict one another and use different mechanics" isn't something I specifically look for in games. Listening at doors has uses outside of dungeons (it’s something people do in real life, although of course it isn’t considered polite). But I agree that the specific rules for it assume a dungeon crawl framework. I have mixed feelings about Monks. It’s true that a class that can’t normally use weapons or armor requires some odd special-case rules and balancing mechanisms. People also sometimes complain about their existence having weird effects on worldbuilding, though Clerics are far worse in that regard (and the singling out of the Monk in that regard sometimes feels a bit xenophobic). And of course some versions of them (most obviously the 3e version) ended up horribly underpowered. On the other hand, Monks are cool.
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Mar 6, 2024 20:21
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I’m reading the AD&D 1e retroclone OSRIC now, and while it has some overcomplicated aspects, there are some things I really like. The handling of Thief skills leans towards the “they’re basically superpowers” interpretation. Multiclassing, while convoluted, does make some sense of demihuman level caps…except there are still some demihuman multiclass combinations with low level caps, and the difference between dual-classing and multiclassing means, if I understand correctly, that for Druids or Assassins it’s actually the humans who are effectively level-capped. Actually, OSRIC feels weirdly indecisive about where games should stop. In a way there’s three different endpoints. The writeup on Fighters implies that it’s normal to end a campaign when the PCs get their titles and strongholds at levels 9-11 or so, with later levels being something like epic-level play in 3.5, I guess. But Gygax and friends bothered to write two spell levels’ worth of spells after that for most classes (four spells levels for Magic Users), so clearly they expected a substantial number of people to keep going. The second natural stopping point is around 1,500,000 XP (around level 14 for most classes), when Druids and Assassins hit their level caps, especially since level 14 is also the level cap for the B/X human classes. The third endpoint is level 24, where the other classes get their final class features (except for Fighters, who get their final to-hit bonus at level 20). How high a level did people actually play AD&D 1e to in practice? I remember reading somewhere that “domain-level” play was fairly rare, and I think Gygax himself acknowledged that the game was questionably balanced after level 16 or so. Also, while I haven’t done the math, I think getting the XP to reach level 24 would require quite a few long sessions of play.
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Mar 7, 2024 00:30
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What level does the AD&D fighter get a domain? The Basic fighter becomes a Baron at Level 9.
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Mar 7, 2024 00:58
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mellonbread posted:What level does the AD&D fighter get a domain? The Basic fighter becomes a Baron at Level 9. Also level 9. Weirdly enough, the B/X Fighter has no minimum level for building a stronghold; he just has to be able to afford it. The only domain-related thing he gets at level 9 is the title. The AD&D Fighter, on the other hand, actually has to be level 9 to build a stronghold.
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Mar 7, 2024 01:36
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Terrible Opinions posted:I've always found the need to justify non-humans being rare in setting as kind of silly, given that the inspirations of D&D either have them as pretty dang common (Tolkien) or not really suitable for PCs (Conan). The only book series that has fantasy races as rare but easily usable for PCs that I can think of is Fafrhd and the Grey Mouser's series of one off near-humans. Though half of them are basically just monster-girls to server as single story love interests. Lankhmar is the weebiest of old-school settings.
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Mar 7, 2024 08:51
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It just occurred to me that the Gray Mouser being a former wizard might be the inspiration for AD&D’’s clunky “dual-classing” mechanic.
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Mar 7, 2024 14:11
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Speaking of non human races, I'm currently playing in a 5e curse of Strahd game and I was surprised and a little annoyed that undead still age you in that edition? In the weird, asymmetrical, fundamentally less balanced versions of D&D? Yeah ok, whatever. But in 5e? I'm already the only part member without dark vision, now I have to worry about a hidden one shot mechanic? (My character was 50). Then again, it's only now occurring to me that 5e actually doesn't have any aging mechanics and if I turn 80 nothing actually happens?
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Mar 7, 2024 15:48
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Silver2195 posted:It just occurred to me that the Gray Mouser being a former wizard might be the inspiration for AD&D’’s clunky “dual-classing” mechanic. It's 100% the reason that Thieves can cast spell scrolls.
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Mar 7, 2024 15:58
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I thought the main inspiration for thieves using scrolls (with a chance of failure necessitating a bunch of stupid tables) was Cugel loving up the Spell of Forlorn Encystment.
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Mar 7, 2024 16:00
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Mouser also uses a magical scroll when him and Fafrhd were employed by rival wizard brothers.
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Mar 7, 2024 16:05
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Jack B Nimble posted:Speaking of non human races, I'm currently playing in a 5e curse of Strahd game and I was surprised and a little annoyed that undead still age you in that edition? In the weird, asymmetrical, fundamentally less balanced versions of D&D? Yeah ok, whatever. But in 5e? I'm already the only part member without dark vision, now I have to worry about a hidden one shot mechanic? (My character was 50). I'd be surprised if they had a lose 1 str but gain 1 wisdom thing like they did in older versions. Seems like it's probably just flavor
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Mar 7, 2024 16:44
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LatwPIAT posted:There's a particular breed of D&D wonk that holds the opinion that the Thief is when it all started going downhill, because it codified a bunch of specific probabilities for success in doing things that everyone should be able to do with sufficient roleplaying. In practice, for adjudicating stealth, I see people lean into the surprise roll, which is old D&D's kind of awkward bastard stealth system. It's not great but it's fast. I think the people who think the thief skills squelch the fighter simply want to recover that gameplay and emphasize it. It's not the deep movement of subterranean conflicts, it's right there in 'rulings not rules'. I also think the thief probably was designed in a context where it was understood that everyone can sneak some, and everyone can climb some, and everyone can So I think the real tension going on with the thief is a usual problem with old D&D, is that it was not designed for modern heroic play. BUT, it's also not designed for what a portion of the OSR wants -- small party of low level low magic yet somewhat durable schmoes. So it's probably no accident that that last group is the one that has moved the furtherst into NSR stuff, but it also resulted in LotFP's skill system pretty early on.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:45
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Sax Solo posted:I don't think OSR players are as devoted to free-form play as you say. Your dichotomy, she is false.
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Mar 7, 2024 18:15
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This is the biggest bundle that Goodman Games has ever put out, holy poo poo. Love that it has both first and third party books in it.
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Mar 7, 2024 20:10
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Silver2195 posted:It just occurred to me that the Gray Mouser being a former wizard might be the inspiration for AD&D’’s clunky “dual-classing” mechanic. Almost certainly.
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Mar 7, 2024 20:28
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Lumbermouth posted:This is the biggest bundle that Goodman Games has ever put out, holy poo poo. Love that it has both first and third party books in it. 1. That’s a killer bundle with a ton of great stuff in it. 2. LMAO they’re just giving physical copies of MCC away now. Not exactly been a smash hit, has it?
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Mar 7, 2024 21:28
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Arcsech posted:1. That’s a killer bundle with a ton of great stuff in it. It's been a third party fixing effort, especially since Jim Wampler left Goodman after completing work on it. Thankfully this bundle has a couple of the supplements that I think really help (Enchiridion of the Computarchs, Marvels/Mysteries of the Multiverse) I'd definitely recommend picking up Stefan Surratt's Merchants of the Multiverse and James Pozonel's Unveiled Elisions too.
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Mar 7, 2024 21:49
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While I was reading retroclones, I decided to read Swords & Wizardry (the 2011 Core Rules I already had on my DrivethruRPG account) next. Being OD&D-based, it has much less fiddly complexity than the AD&D-based OSRIC. Despite labelling the Thief an optional class, it has the best handling of the Thief of the true retroclones I've seen...with one exception. For once, the issue is the lack of a demihuman level cap; halfling Thieves are strictly better than human ones! What I really like about Swords & Wizardry is the honesty of the writing; it points out where the original rules are unclear, and occasionally when rules are copied from OD&D that the writers aren't fans of, with suggestions for changing them. Whereas OSRIC sometimes has a weird tone where the author doesn't clearly distinguish between his own viewpoint and Gygax's.
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Mar 8, 2024 02:57
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Halloween Jack posted:Philotomy Jurament is better known for coining the phrase "tyranny of fun" than for his OD&D houserules. I need to know more
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Mar 8, 2024 03:43
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SlimGoodbody posted:I need to know more If that post is unfamiliar I'd actually recommend this, which includes the tyranny of play but is s broader, like, historiography of TTRPGs https://retiredadventurer.blogspot.com/2021/04/six-cultures-of-play.html?m=1
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Mar 8, 2024 03:48
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Jack B Nimble posted:If that post is unfamiliar I'd actually recommend this, which includes the tyranny of play but is s broader, like, historiography of TTRPGs I always found it funny that the Retired Adventurer talks about wanting to move beyond "relatively pejorative" characterizations of the OC/Neo-Trad category, like "the tyranny of fun"...and then proceeds to say that it has "the largest group of people who are low-skill and ignorant of the history of roleplaying." It's an interesting essay, though.
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Mar 8, 2024 04:06
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Yeah it's not well worded if they wanted to be more neutral; the charitable interpretation I'd make is that he's pointing out that, for a lot of young players, their conception of what d&d IS comes from critical roll and dimension 20 and stuff like that. And they're the ones who will be least aware of the other, older styles of play just because they're literally younger and less experienced players. But yeah he could have worded it better. But here's a great example: did y'all ever see Stephen Colbert play with critical roll? He mentions at the start that he'd played some in the 70's and man, you can see it when he starts. He is extremely careful in where his character goes, what he touches, what the GM tells him, distances, etc. Now, he's also a wonderful actor and he warms to the critical roll style quickly, but go check out the first couple scenes he's playing through and you can see that he's coming from a different culture of play. https://youtu.be/3658C2y4LlA?si=F6vjgDLjsmGOhx3R Intro starts it at 10:38 , Colbert starts around 12:28 Silver2195 posted:I wasn’t saying he was wrong, exactly. It’s just a funny way of putting it. Right, yeah, I agree. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Mar 8, 2024 |
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Mar 8, 2024 04:14
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I wasn’t saying he was wrong, exactly. It’s just a funny way of putting it.
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Mar 8, 2024 04:19
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Empty Sandwich posted:Monopoly is so much better RAW, especially with the immediate auctions (that might be optional) Yeah it’s absolutely baffling how people ruin the game in the same exact way all over the world. It’s not a great game even when played by the rules, but immediate auctions and money leaving circulation at least make it gameable.
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Mar 8, 2024 08:25
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Silver2195 posted:It just occurred to me that the Gray Mouser being a former wizard might be the inspiration for AD&D’’s clunky “dual-classing” mechanic. I might be making this up, but I thought one of the Greyhawk PC wizards lost his spellbook so he decided to become a fighter. again, might be confusing a couple stories here
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Mar 8, 2024 15:20
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't think OSR players are as devoted to freeform play as some of them say they are, but you can certainly find Brown Box fundamentalists on blogs and forums saying it all went downhill with Supplement I: Greyhawk.
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Mar 8, 2024 18:00
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Jack B Nimble posted:But here's a great example: did y'all ever see Stephen Colbert play with critical roll? He mentions at the start that he'd played some in the 70's and man, you can see it when he starts. He is extremely careful in where his character goes, what he touches, what the GM tells him, distances, etc. Now, he's also a wonderful actor and he warms to the critical roll style quickly, but go check out the first couple scenes he's playing through and you can see that he's coming from a different culture of play. Dude namedropped Thieves of Fortress Badabaskor on national television, I'm not surprised.
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Mar 8, 2024 18:03
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Ultimately, I decided my DCC home setting will be Throne from Kill Six Billion Demons, by way of Jack Vance. They're gonna arrive in the waters around the Red City and immediately be set upon by very pushy and Vancian canoe-based guides. Like tuktuk drivers but somewhat less pushy. Then likely escorted to a barge full of weirdos and merchants seeking to hire them in return for living space. Then I'm gonna use the 1st Dying Earth DCC adventure because it hits the tone I want.
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Mar 9, 2024 00:16
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dwarf74 posted:Ultimately, I decided my DCC home setting will be Throne from Kill Six Billion Demons, by way of Jack Vance. Keep the thread updated please! Sounds like a fun set up, especially with the pushy Vance guides!
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Mar 9, 2024 00:32
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We're getting ready to investigate taking out a copper dragon lair that's spoiling our future domain in our OSE hexcrawl campaign. Most of us have no actual experience fighting old school dragons but we've rolled a few test rolls on treasure table H and we're all tempted. We all have 2-4 characters, either a main and retainers or two mains and retainers split across our two teams that operate independently. We'd most likely combine the teams for this undertaking. Does anyone have any must have spells or tactics we should be considering? We are trying to determine the age but we are fairly confident there are 3 dragons.
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Mar 11, 2024 16:50
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Do OSE dragons do the whole "breath weapon damage = dragon's current hp" thing? I don't remember. When I've fought dragons in B/X in the past, the key was alpha striking them with all you have, then making sure nobody's standing close to each other. You need to hit them so hard before their first turn that they don't instakill everyone they breathe on even on a passed save. You also need to have a plan to make sure you get the drop on them/their 'first turn' takes as long as possible to happen--if you roll initiative and they win, you've basically already lost. It's always extremely fraught-feeling--like, one bad roll away from a TPK fraught-feeling. Old-school dragons aren't anything crazy stat-wise, but that breath weapon is crazy dangerous.
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Mar 11, 2024 19:41
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Dragons are almost unkillable if they are run as intelligent foes rather than superpowered animals. A smart dragon can just fly out of range of the players' weapons and spam its breath attack, which can wipe the average party in a single use. If you use the treasure tables then the average dragon usually has a collection of high power magic items in its hoard, which can also TPK an unprepared group - and it's very hard to prepare for a potentially infinite range of game breaking magic effects. If the dragons are intelligent then it might be possible to either come to some accommodation with them (I don't think it's a spoiler to say that metallic dragons are typically good aligned or at least possible to negotiate with) or use their personality flaws (honor, greed, etc) to lure them into a trap.
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Mar 11, 2024 20:09
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