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Eh, I feel like we could probably slot Alt in the middle if they're all supposed to connect unless Alt goes way off the rails. OG -> 1 iron -> MM Defeated by Atomsk because Haruko ended up summoning him by unleashing Naota's N/O potential. then Alt -> Many Irons -> MM Defeated at least such that ruins are every where because ???? then Prog -> 1 iron, ruins everywhere -> MM Defeated basically by Aiko, but with assists from the Brotherhood. That said, if OG & Prog sort of said "there is hope, if you can figure out the right way to grow up for who you are right now," the Alternative maybe could be "sike, when you grow up, the world ends and the rich get to live while you die, losers." Which hey, maybe that's the swerve and the underlying thought system here. If FLCL is Freudian & Prog is Lacanian, maybe Alt, for all of it's Iyashikei trappings, will be Nihilist in the end. Seems bleak for FLCL though.
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Oct 7, 2018 07:53
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progressive was not lacanian, it was just bullshit unless bullshit is lacanian or vice-versa, in which case, carry on
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Oct 7, 2018 08:02
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Oxxidation posted:progressive was not lacanian, it was just bullshit My full on bullshit thoughts on Prog (as co-signed by Jason DeMarco for what it's worth) are here in all their "sir this is a Wendy's drive thru" glory. However, the tl;dr is that all the death imagery and such in Prog is really just leaning on Jacques Lacan's approach to psychoanalysis the way FLCL (and everything else of weight Gainax did for a while) leans on Freud. It's still clumsy at points, and by that choice of philosophy it ends up way less flashy, but it makes sense after a couple watches given you're not looking though OG's lens alone.
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Oct 7, 2018 08:20
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A terrible narrative that references something smart is still a terrible narrative. Anything like that Prog had to say felt like window dressing to appear more superficially Gainax-esque
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Oct 7, 2018 14:06
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Well, that ruled. Kana is so gay she opened a wormhole to Mars.
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Oct 14, 2018 04:58
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that was great right up until the last fifteen minutes
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Oct 14, 2018 05:26
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Agreed. Still a fan of gayness to rip the space-time continuum though.
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Oct 14, 2018 05:30
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like the oppressive fatalist melancholy of the pre-iron activation scene with kanda smoking by the vending machine was everything i was hoping for when progressive first came out, and then it spewed rainbow gainax all over its denouement the show was generally too grounded to get away with that kind of trippy ambiguity
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Oct 14, 2018 05:32
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It felt like they didn't know how to end it, so they just went "gently caress it, end it!" So much like all of FLCL.
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Oct 14, 2018 05:33
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Waffleman_ posted:It felt like they didn't know how to end it, so they just went "gently caress it, end it!" FLCLassic's ending was perfect and tied up all the ends that mattered, and while Alternative poo poo the bed plotwise it at least had a clear thematic throughline (that got about as subtle as a thrown brick by the end) Progressive just farted out some pabulum about adulthood and education and then tripped and fell as it tried to slink away from the stage
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Oct 14, 2018 05:34
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Waffleman_ posted:It felt like they didn't know how to end it, so they just went "gently caress it, end it!" Except that the first FLCL had an ending that was clearly the payoff to everything it set up. And Alt was a garbage show all through. I will stand by this statement, like I stood by saying Revenge of the Sith was terrible despite the claims it was "the good one" for the first few months. Edit: Ah, hell, might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb. Lay my cards on the table and that. FLCL the original is a genuine classic, maybe the best OVA ever. Fast, smart, funny, great use of the soundtrack, and all brought to you by bunch of all time best animators at the top of their game doing whatever the hell they want. It has a big, mostly coherent (if, you know, weird) space plot running in the background, but we only see it as snatches of crazy smashing through Naota's life, because that's all the show needs. Progressive is not an all time great (duh), but it is a good show. It has its own themes about adolescence, sex, permanence, desire, and the like, and it manages to mostly express them, even if it doesn't do it as well as the original. It tries to both be a sequel, exploring Haruko (the bit about being in love with Atomsk? That was in the original's novels) and its own thing, focusing on Hidomi's pile of issues. There's stumbling, flailing, the last episode is clumsy in bringing things together, but what it does, no other show does, for good and ill. Alternative is not good. The show is, for the most part, just another four girls anime that happens to have Haruko in it. I admit I've got somewhat limited experience with the subgenre, since, not my thing, but I did at least watch through A Place Further Than The Universe, so I can say with confidence that it's not even a particularly good four girls hanging out anime. Even aside from Place having, you know, forward momentum, the leads there show more layers, more growth, and are just, in general, more fun to watch. And that's being generous, because the thing calls itself FLCL, and that carries expectations. Visual innovation, insane space hijinks, ordinary life torn apart as it intersects with space hijinks, "ordinary" students having their ordinary decisions spiral into chaos... None of that delivered. Almost to the end, the two halves were siloed off, with the robot stuff happening more from contractual obligation than any organic narrative developments, and the ending was more realizing Kana had to do something important than an actual earned point. And having Haruko be just a good guy with some "wacky" habits... gently caress's sake, Alt. How did you screw that up so badly? I expect to be pilloried for a while (especially for saying Prog is in the 7-8 range rather than lambasting it), but... well. Just going with the crowd every time isn't living. And my sometimes-reliable gut says that betting on the whims of the moment isn't a good long term investment. Moving on, it's interesting how the protagonists of FLCL have a pretty much reversed correlation between age and maturity and a similar curve on age and effectiveness. Naota's twelve, but he's world weary beyond his years, to the point he has to learn that, hey, it's fine to be a kid sometimes. He also straight up wins, taking the power of Atomsk, defeating MM, and managing to win a tiny part of Haruko's shriveled, black, Atomsk obsessed heart in the process. Hidomi's 14 and is pretty much on track for it. As in she's terrified of change, but hates stasis, is awkwardly managing her first hormonal crush as it drifts into something like love, and has no idea what she's doing. It takes a lot of other factors to score a win, but she's a part of defeating Medical Mechanica, the world is saved even if her hometown got roughed up, and things are moving forward again, even if she doesn't know what forward looks like. And Kana's 17, but really, really isn't ready. Her first crush is on someone who makes Ide look like a straightforward winner (which is impressive, considering that not being up for the task is one of Ide's basic things) and doesn't go anywhere, she doesn't grow up, she doesn't move forward. Oh, and other than her hometown and the ultra-rich who could afford a ship, everyone on Earth was flattened. So, great job there. Really. Thumbs up. And with all that said, at least we can all agree that the best FLCL sequel is still Space Patrol Luluco. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Oct 14, 2018 |
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Oct 14, 2018 05:40
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I think I like Alternative more than Progressive But to me it's OG FLCL > Alt FLCL > Prog FLCL And I wonder if Haruko flying through the wormhole was her scraping against the universe of the Original FLCL, what with the flashes
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Oct 14, 2018 07:07
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Waffleman_ posted:Well, that ruled. Kana is so gay she opened a wormhole to Mars. On the other hand, she is screaming her love to another girl while literally emitting a rainbow aura so at least one goddamn person on the staff had to have some self-awareness. Alt was good even though it feels like something that was originally going to be its own thing before having the FLCL bits stapled to it. At the very least it kept a lighter touch instead of Prog just throwing wacky robot stuff in a blender and praying something coherent could be sussed out if it.
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Oct 14, 2018 09:17
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I'll have to rewatch Alt through in a sitting, but my first impressions are that at best, Alt was going more for a broader commentary with the whole billionaires escaping to space in the face of a disaster they did nothing to help stop if not aided subplot rather than the character focused stories of OG & Prog (incredibly polarizing results aside.) That broader aspect is certainly something the other two series ignore or at least code in very different ways to Alt. Quality and deeper metaphor postmortems aside, I still think that if they're in the same time line, the time line might make the most sense as OG->Alt->Prog since we see a post-MM disaster world in Prog, and Alt ends with a big disaster. Also, using the same Pillows song for the Alt finale as the Prog intro seems like a hand off of sorts. I dunno. I'd like to see another couple FLCL series either way if the audience is there for it though.
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Oct 14, 2018 10:20
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If Alt is part of the timeline then it’s likely a prequel since Atomsk isn’t even mentioned, among other things.
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Oct 14, 2018 16:23
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The omission of Atomsk by name is certainly interesting. Does Haruko even have the Atomsk detector (broken cuff) on her wrist in Alt? I don't recall, but I think no.
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Oct 14, 2018 16:38
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Did we even see Atomsk though for her to make the connection outside of the mark on main girl's head? Alternative just threw up a whatever ending that doesn't deserve its mystery. Did the planet actually get smoothed out with that mostly blue planet? Did Harkuo go back in time and she seeks out Atomsk to save Alternative/herself? It didn't have the guts to even confirm that this is the downer ending variation of the series and that's gonna mar Alternative for a long while. Especially if they're not gonna make any more FLCLs ever.
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Oct 14, 2018 18:33
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Did she go back in time or did she just end up on the other side of the worm hole (IE: Mars)? Since we can't know if they were implying that she got a glimpse of the past, or an alternate timeline, it's possible she's just on Mars.
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Oct 14, 2018 18:39
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I thought Alternative's ending was pretty great. Not as great as the original's, but way better than Progressive.
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Oct 14, 2018 19:02
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Double checked: yes, Haruko was worm holed to Mars (the first episode of alt flash forwards to this in its intro monologue,) so the worm hole antics must be a glimpse of the original universe more than anything else: 
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Oct 14, 2018 19:35
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It's really weird how Haruko was pretty much on the up and up the whole time. Like, she didn't have any ulterior motives or anything, she just wanted to stop MM. It's especially weird coming off of Progressive where she was at her most evil/selfish.
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Oct 14, 2018 19:52
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Rhonne posted:It's really weird how Haruko was pretty much on the up and up the whole time. Like, she didn't have any ulterior motives or anything, she just wanted to stop MM. It's especially weird coming off of Progressive where she was at her most evil/selfish.
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Oct 14, 2018 21:03
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I'd buy the prequel theory over the alternate universe theory more if Mars was in the sky via wormhole during the original series & Prog, (unless the wormhole to Mars eventually collapses which is as plausible as anything else I suppose.) I'd also think Naota's reaction to the MM factory wouldn't be so non-plussed initially if everyone already knew the factory was a copy of one that brought about a extinction level event (though he writes off a lot of messed up stuff as "normal" and "not extraordinary".) Interstellar Immigration seems like dying organization in Alt vs. OG (maybe slightly more together than in Prog unless the suggestion is they're in deep cover,) which squares with an AU rather than placing it anywhere on a timeline with the other two the more I think about it. Even the wormhole antics could be her seeing her own future, or her seeing her alternate self. Either way, I scrubbed through the whole of Alt to see if Haruko ever has the Atomsk detector bracelet, and nope, she never does, so maybe that's prequel evidence, but maybe that's AU evidence.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:14
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Rhonne posted:It's really weird how Haruko was pretty much on the up and up the whole time. Like, she didn't have any ulterior motives or anything, she just wanted to stop MM. It's especially weird coming off of Progressive where she was at her most evil/selfish. she's still essentially haruko in that she decides what she wants to do and then goes and does it as hard as possible it's just that this time she wanted to stick her finger in MM's collective eye rather than sexually harass teenagers until a space-bird came out of their heads
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Oct 14, 2018 22:54
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Maybe Atomisk is dead at this point and thus she has nothing else but I guess helping out the kid with the highest No signal she can find?
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Oct 14, 2018 23:05
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atomsk doesn't strike me as the "killable" type it's more likely this is literally just an alternative continuity
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Oct 14, 2018 23:15
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Progressive felt like it ended abruptly and left plenty of loose ends... but looking back at it I felt like it told a complete story. Alternative just... Doesn't. I can't even figure out if it takes place before or after the other seasons, or in an alternate timeline, or what. Seems like I'm not alone. The whole time Alternative has been airing, I've felt that it was worse than Progressive, even though majority oppinion went the opposite direction. I feel a bit justified now, since everyone else seems baffled by the last episode too.
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Oct 15, 2018 00:31
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Funkmaster General posted:Progressive felt like it ended abruptly and left plenty of loose ends... but looking back at it I felt like it told a complete story. Alternative just... Doesn't. I can't even figure out if it takes place before or after the other seasons, or in an alternate timeline, or what. Seems like I'm not alone. I'm not sure how majority that opinion was, honestly. If you look at the size of discussions, a lot less people were talking about Alt, and the Japanese discussion I've seen was okay with Progressive, while really hating Alternative. Looking at the ratings, Prog's finale drew better ratings and demos on rerun than Alt got for its later episodes. And it's a steady bleed for Alt, where (except for a weird dip for the final), was able to keep things together better. Basically, I'd say that Progressive just had more people left who cared enough to get angry.
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Oct 15, 2018 01:38
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Lowkey ending but I liked it. I didn’t expect as explicit of a Diebuster callback as they can do without breaking copyright
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Oct 15, 2018 01:58
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Alternative literally mocks the idea of neatly tying up loose ends for a happy ending so I'm not sure what people expected. Kana learns to let go of the past and be a better friend for it, and Earth wasn't destroyed. How the Earth was saved is up to interpretation, and maybe it lends itself to additional seasons (which I'm sure Adult Swim wants) but the core story itself isn't that ambiguous.
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Oct 15, 2018 03:44
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Pants Donkey posted:Alternative literally mocks the idea of neatly tying up loose ends for a happy ending so I'm not sure what people expected. Kana learns to let go of the past and be a better friend for it, and Earth wasn't destroyed. But Earth was destroyed. We saw a shot of it flattened out. Kana apparently managed to save herself and her hometown, but humanity as a whole seems to be on shakier ground.
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Oct 15, 2018 03:47
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I’m mentally placing Alternative neatly as the midquel of FLCL and Diebuster at this point within the ”Fraternity saga” while dismissing Progressive. Not as a serious ”rargh canon wiki culture” sense but as a fanciful personal notion
Nina fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Oct 15, 2018 |
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Oct 15, 2018 04:03
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I took the ending like the ending of the original FLCL. Atomsk destroyed the Iron and most of the town, but later everything is rebuilt and back to normal Kana opened a wormhole that sucked up all the MM junk, and in the last narration everything was rebuilt and back to normal
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Oct 15, 2018 04:09
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SgtSteel91 posted:I took the ending like the ending of the original FLCL. But Earth is flattened out. Right there. And the sky is orange, like they're on Mars. Is... is this what it takes to enjoy Alternative? A complete inability to process even the most basic events? Like, the ending was a confusing mess, but "The Earth was flattened" is pretty clear.
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Oct 15, 2018 04:22
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One of the things I noticed in the original is that while 95% of it is expressed through outlandish metaphor (visual or verbal), there would be one or two times an episode where a character would just break through and speak unambiguously in a way that re-contextualizes what we've seen and both completes and complicates their character. Think Naota's brother's photograph with "I've got a blonde", Ninamori saying she talked to her parents about what she's going through, or Kamon ending a seemingly pointless story with "unlike that hamster I think Naota is enjoying his freedom". I feel like Prog/Alt was trying to do drops like this but instead had every episode end with a five minute monologue where the main character states exactly how they feel, what happened that episode, and the moral, at which point the monster explodes.
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Oct 15, 2018 04:28
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chiasaur11 posted:But Earth is flattened out. Right there. And the sky is orange, like they're on Mars. Kanda even says the NO hole fucks with spacetime, which gives the writers the freedom to do whatever. Maybe the flattened Earth was an alternate future or the bad present that Kana got everyone to escape from. The sky is orange because the sky can be loving orange on Earth. If they had moved to Mars then Pets would have likely shown up at the end, and we know the evacuation still happened because Pets is gone. But it's ambiguous, likely because A) Adult Swim wanted it open for sequels and B) it is not the main focus of the plot
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Oct 15, 2018 04:30
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chiasaur11 posted:But Earth is flattened out. Right there. And the sky is orange, like they're on Mars. I don't think the Earth was flattened Like I said, Kana opened the wormhole which sucked up all the MM irons and MP Cantis edit: I think it makes sense is a meta sense too. Kana's world was falling apart because of her fight with Pets, represented by the Irons starting to flatten the Earth. Kana then faced her true feelings, when she gave her "I love you Pets" speech, and saved the world. Pets is still gone, but that's alright with Kana now. SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Oct 15, 2018 |
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Oct 15, 2018 04:35
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Hot Take: I hope Pets died on her way to her new home planet, along with all the other rich people.
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Oct 15, 2018 05:40
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I shot myself in the foot by checking wikipedia and saw both Alt and Prog are written by the same thundering boob. I hate all of it so far. 3 eps to go on Alt and I hate it. This is on par with writing in the 20th season of the Simpsons written by fans for the mutants who still tune in.
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Oct 15, 2018 20:50
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chefscientist posted:I shot myself in the foot by checking wikipedia and saw both Alt and Prog are written by the same thundering boob. I hate all of it so far. 3 eps to go on Alt and I hate it. This is on par with writing in the 20th season of the Simpsons written by fans for the mutants who still tune in. Thanks for your bad opinions on Alt.
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Oct 15, 2018 20:53
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