Glorantha gaming: Heroquests and Cows

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Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

DalaranJ posted:

What�s a Lightfore?

For seein' in the dark!

# ? Sep 22, 2023 16:39

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# ? Apr 30, 2024 16:45

Spiderfist Island: Feb 19, 2011

I suppose this is the thread to complain about RuneQuest: Adventures in Glorantha's mechanics, right?

I get that it's the Chaosium BRP system, and that it's going to be grognardy by default, but... I don't know. Back when I saw early development shots and their sketch of the new character sheet with the Wu Xing-style Element Wheel and the opposed Power Runes, it looked like it was going to be doing a lot more of a change: hopefully, taking more from later forms of Pendragon in terms of complexity and something a lot more modern, accessible, and streamlined.

But, at least from my perspective, it wasn't. I don't know if it's just me being spoiled, but having to look at a massive table for the core mechanic in a Quickstart rules PDF is a real drag, and it'd immediately kill off any interest in my local player base. There's some real innovative gems in the design directions for RQAiG that they could have made more holistic and push out to the forefront for the first "new" edition of RuneQuest in ages, but it just is still an unsatisfyingly kludgy 70's system.

And yes, I do know about 13AiG and Heroquest. They just aren't what I'm looking for, either. I've played 13th Age, but it kind of just answered for me that after so long playing them, I'm 110% tired of d20 class-and-level systems. And Heroquest is more than a little obtuse to get into at this time, and was always too free-form for me.

I have pretty concrete ideas of how to make a more accessible and stylistically appropriate system for Glorantha, but I don't have the cachet and I dunno if I'd ever be in a position to develop it.

# ? Sep 22, 2023 20:34

NewMars: Mar 10, 2013

DalaranJ posted:

What�s a Lightfore?

It's an extremely bright star that follows a regular path in the sky. It was the thing that lit the world after the regular sun died, but not nearly as well.

# ? Sep 22, 2023 20:35

Haystack: Jan 23, 2005

Yeah, Runequest: Glorantha is kind of a whiff. Among other things, there's a real disconnect between how involved character creation is vs how easy it is to be one-shotted.

Spiderfist Island posted:

I have pretty concrete ideas of how to make a more accessible and stylistically appropriate system for Glorantha, but I don't have the cachet and I dunno if I'd ever be in a position to develop it.

Even if you're never gonna make it, I'd be interested in hearing your ideas.

# ? Sep 22, 2023 20:48

White Coke: May 29, 2015

I have a question about Daga. He's an Orlanthi god but he seems to be regarded as an enemy god or is used by Orlanth to punish people. His father is Yelm or some other Solar god and while his mother Molanni is associated with Entekos who is a Dara Happan god there doesn't seem to be any analogue for him in the Dara Happan pantheon even as a foe like how Orlanth is Rebellus Terminus. What I'm wondering is if any cultures have deliberately incorporated another culture's enemy god into their pantheon in order to strengthen it, or altered the cult of one of their gods to incorporate elements of a foreign culture where their god is hostile? This seems like the sort of thing the Lunars and Nysaloreans before them might have done. The Lunars did make Yara Aranis to be an enemy of the Pentans but she was born of a goddess they feared and later apotheosized. Maybe the Yelm cult don't want to admit his bastard?

NewMars posted:

DalaranJ posted:
What�s a Lightfore?

It's an extremely bright star that follows a regular path in the sky. It was the thing that lit the world after the regular sun died, but not nearly as well.

And depending on who you ask it might also have died but came back to life before the sun did with the sun possibly having only come back after the Dawn. Also it might not have initially followed the same path the sun does but zipped around, and there might have been multiple Lightfores until one was subordinated to another and it might have lost some of its brightness and power after the real sun came back, or after the Sunstop or some other magical experiment.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 02:47

Spiderfist Island: Feb 19, 2011

Haystack posted:

Yeah, Runequest: Glorantha is kind of a whiff. Among other things, there's a real disconnect between how involved character creation is vs how easy it is to be one-shotted.

Even if you're never gonna make it, I'd be interested in hearing your ideas.

Sure! Here's my attempt to expound on some elements of them:

De-Granularize the System. BRP is filled with fiddly rules that scan from the origins of the system being in the hands of SCA enthusiasts from the 1970s. Take a big step back, ask yourself if hit points per body part, SIZ vs. STR vs. CON, and shopping-lists of magic spells at hand are needed, and start cutting, cutting, cutting. Seriously consider if roll-under percentile is still a good fit for the game, mathematics at hand, and power levels you want to display. I am greatly in favor of moving to a step-die system, making every system and check holistic, and having stats that are more "Paper Mario" scale than what is present at hand (so, 1/5 to 1/10th what is given). Quicker math + less cruft and sacred cow options == faster gameplay.
Look at Systems Published since 2000, for Goodness's Sakes. Get rid of the skill lists and replace them with backgrounds (with judicious guidelines on how to define and invoke them, of course). Change the in-house writing style to fluff text clearly separate from keywords. Build NPCs using a simplified scaffold and only several actions, depending on if they're a combat and/or a social encounter (do not make them equivalent to a PC anymore, I swear to Arkat, it's never been worth it). Encounter math. Encounter math. Encounter math. 4th Edition D&D has been dead for over a decade, yet no major studio's truly internalized any of its lessons. Speaking of which, develop encounter rules for exploration, travel, and social conflict that don't suck and that fit into the game as a whole.
Mix Free-Form with Cut-and-Dry. We don't need ten thousand different variations of "do a thing" or "better weapon" or "zap/burn this guy." General rune and battle magic should be well-codified, simple, and a short list of powers (unique actions) with structured guidelines on how to extrapolate to actions appropriate to a given character should be available. This system could also apply to mundane unique talents such as combat styles, cryptic languages, crafting etiquette, etc. Add degrees of success similar to 10+ results in Powered By the Apocalypse games to powers, whether generic or specific.

Moreover, whether a character can do supernatural stuff should be approached based on what sorts of magic the character is trained or initiated into. An Orlanth devotee shouldn't have to waste a slot and rules space on being able to say "I roll Might + Storm and Spend 1 Magic to jump really high." It's just a given that they can enhance a skill check that way. ('Making Better Decisions' with Willpower plus Storm isn't within a Wind Lord's purview, in contrast.) For really unique or above-baseline magic stuff, characters should draw on their unique Cult magic talents.
Strong Fundamentals. Make sure that interaction with the world is possible and interesting enough for mere mortal characters. Turn every check into a holistic variant on the core mechanic. Standardize your keywords. Have all actions (natural, supernatural, instantaneous or ritual/process, etc.) use the same descriptive framework, similar to D&D 4E's innovation there.

Simplify combat math to the actions� center it around what's called a "bout" sometimes in fighting sports, and use "guard points" or something similar but refilling as the majority of a character's hit points. I am, of course, going to desperately ask you now to study how Sekiro handles sword fights and make that element of not landing lethal blows until one side loses control and a lethal blow takes most or all of someone's HP out a core element of the new system. Make critical hits and body part effects an aftermath of a fight to speed things along. Additionally, you can use this aftermath system to vary just how lethal you want your game to play.
Runes as the Center of All Stats. It's time. We already have Elemental Affinities and Power Rune affinities as base elements of a character. Now, let's just make those core stats and have them replace POW. We've already got a list of eight to nine major cultures, right? Have that be the first thing chosen in character creation. Culture denotes what runes a character can normally be associated with, what cults/sorceries/spirits/mysticisms they may have access to, and a list of simplified backgrounds with skill bonus cues. For non-Lunar cultures, the "middle wheel" Element could be replaced by another Rune in the culture typically associated with governing the elements (Law in Orlanthi and Western cultures, Dragon in Kralorelan cultures and certain Dragon Pass residents, or gods forbid, Chaos in Fonrit) and that has its own connotations and drawbacks.

Along with determining your Element and Power dominances, a character would also always be physically/mortally defined by a few extra runes similar to the old ability scores. Simplify the primary 'mortal' stats, and tie them to runes (seems weird? Well, physical might can be connected to the Power rune or maybe the now-disused Umath rune, the Communication rune could represent your charisma, and there's already a very apocryphal Sight rune that could be connected to perception. An 'agility' and 'willpower' representative rune are all that's needed then for a 5-stat system). Each of these Mortal runes would then have an associated calculated gauge, like HP or passive perception.

Speaking of which, get rid of Intelligence. It's instead spread across your backgrounds and cult / caste trainings. Since I like low-granularity step-die systems, there isn't much space to allow for random rolling to really be plausibly balanced if I get 100% my way, so I'd replace it with randomly rolling to determine what your stat array is.
Heroquesting Rules. No, no, I'd want to stay away from Godlearnerism. But we really need codified rules for these. A Heroquest is a very involved form of ritual magic that's a mini-adventure in of itself. Much like in KoDP and its successors, a Heroquesting write-up would include the "mundane" reasons for why you'd normally want to undertake the quest, the required characters and roles, a list of "stations" of the legend where encounters would occur, along with the projected benefits. The GM may also add in incursions from other myths, other heroquesters or Chaotic entities in the Otherworlds, and put places where things may start to go horribly wrong (or where you could find a New Truth). This is a thing that characters are able to do in Glorantha. You should be able to do it with support from the rules.
Every Cult (and Subsequently, All Magic) is Unique. On top of our little mortal scaffold of Ability Runes, a few Power and Element Rune affinities/weaknesses, a background, and a few neat cultural traits or powers, we can then start layering on top of a character the magic system, which is where most of a character's major defined power comes from. Each type of magic (the old God/Spirit/Sorcery distinction, along with artifacts) has a different structure and method of character advancement. I really only have thought out the Theism structure, though.

Let's assume that we're using my suggested step die mechanic for a moment, since it's one I've used for my own home-brew projects and I'm familiar with its quirks. Each cult, like with your ability scores and your Power / Element Runes, has both a static value used in calculations and a die value used in checks. The static value is the mean of the die value's roll, rounded down. (So, one could have a 2/d4 in Harmony and a 3/d6 in Water, or what have you). Cults work the same way, with the uninitiated at 0/� in the cult, an Aspirant to the Cult at 1/d2, an Initiate (the minimum a PC would start at) at 2/d4, Rune Lords all the way at 5/d10, and Rune Priests at 6/d12. There's a ladder to climb, but it's not one that's as tedious as full class/level systems. The higher you are in the cult, the more strength you have to draw on when acting as your god (or association of gods) would with those freeform spells I brought up earlier, as opposed to raw runic powers.

Naturally, at each level you'd gain a new passive trait or a unique, more powerful power or ritual. Some cult levels, mostly the Rune Lords and Rune Priest Levels, would also reveal heroquests to you, free of charge. These would all be tailor-made for the given cult in question. Since unless you're Arkat you're not exactly bouncing between cults and retaining full strength in all of them, the average high-level PC would have a few very powerful unique abilities but still be relatively easy to run without option paralysis.
Lay Observance of Cults. One thing present in the setting's fiction, but rarely extant in the tabletop rules is the fact that most members of a given society do pay observance to other gods in the pantheon. As such an Orlanthi character that pays proper observance to a given deity can gain a temporary boon. This is the cult's Observer Boon, equivalent to a Level 0 spell in D&D or what have you. For devotees of that god's cult, this is a permanent thing that's part of their panoply of powers. Anyone can do this, provided they do the proper libations and recognize the same gods. So, characters can get minor effects as part of a greater community and for temporary purposes.

~~Here's how an Observer trait for Orlanth would~~ just kidding, it's Nanda's time to shine for once:

Hypothetical Observer Trait for Nanda posted:
Cult Sites and Libations
A shrine to Ernalda�s Weaver Women or a tula�s hearth-shrine is the most proper place to offer libations to Nanda. Shrines devoted solely to Nanda are uncommon, but not unheard of, particularly in Esrolian cities. There is a full-fledged temple for Nanda in Notchet, located in-between the Tershis and Kalava districts. This may be the only temple to the Bearded Woman in the world, and the only location where a Rune Priestess of Nandan could be found.

Nanda will accept a lock of your beard hair, cow or mare urine, corning salt, pickling brine, or pickled vegetables as libations.

Lay Observance of Nandan
Nanda may be observed by any Orlanthi, though observance is primarily by Heortlings and Esrolvuli. Other cultures that recognize the Earth or Storm Tribe may observe Nanda at any proper cult site, if given instruction by a Orlanthi-cultured character.

Nanda�s gift to Observers is the Blessing of the Housekeeper trait. This trait lasts by default from when the libation is offered to the sunrise of the next day.

Observer of Nanda Boon
Blessing of the Housekeeper (Trait, Observance, Duration)
When Vinga led off all the women to fight Erladivus, the men of the Storm Tribe were helpless to feed the children, work the looms, and thresh the grains. One of them stepped forwards, strung a loom with Her beard-hair, and renounced all manhood so as to lead the men in how to work the home. Now She is Nanda, the Bearded Woman and Housekeeper. Or perhaps She always was.

Effect:
� You grant advantage when Aiding Another in performing women�s work in Orlanthi cultures.
� When you make a Critical Success on checks taken when performing any women's work in Orlanthi cultures, you gain +1 Magic per additional degree of success. This also applies to Aiding Another in such checks.

Duration: Until the next sunrise; or, permanently if a member of the Nandan Cult.

Reprisal:
� Trigger: Performing men�s work or referring to Nanda, yourself, or other Nandans with �he,� �him,� or �his.�
� Effect: The boon immediately ends. If you are a Nandan Cultist, you must perform Aspirant Observance to regain use of all your Nandan powers.

Anyways, that all is what I've got in terms of coherent thoughts on how I'd handle my own addition to the endless attempts at a Glorantha RPG.

Spiderfist Island fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Sep 23, 2023

# ? Sep 23, 2023 02:48

wiegieman: Apr 22, 2010; Royalty is a continuous cutting motion

You might want to look into Heroquest Glorantha, which now that the trademark has been sold to Hasbro might be better called Questworlds Glorantha. It's a radically different, story-first approach to gaming compared to RQ. Instead of having 85% in the 1H Axe skill, you have a rating in broad Keywords (like your runes) and narrower abilities. It takes a different approach than RQ, but it's worth it.

Here's what the powers for an initiate of Babeester Gor look like:

And a character sheet for said Gorite:

pre:

Keywords:
	Culture: Heortling 13

	Community: The _____ Clan 13

	Occupation: Cult Warrior of Babeester Gor 17
		Dazzlingly Skilled Axe Fighter +1
		Terrifying Reputation +1
	

Runes:
	Earth 17
		Immovable as a Mountain, Unstoppable as an Earthquake +1
	        Glare that can Turn Stampedes +1

	Death 4W, Initiate of Babeester Gor
		Divine Murder Trance +1
		Berserker Blood Brew +1

	Truth 13
		Your Sins are Written on Your Skin +1
		

Possessions, Companions, Trinkets, and Tricks:

	Holy Obsidian Axe 13
		Cuts Straight Through Swords +1

	Sarassossa, a Sly Snake Sidekick who Seldom Sleeps
		Sneaky Snake 1W
		Always Watching 17
		Patient 13

Flaws:
	Must Always Obey Earth Priestesses 5W
	Distinguishing Characteristic: Vengeful 18

Compare that to spending an hour grinding out an RQ character. Coming up with Heroquest abilities is fun.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 03:08

Gorelab: Dec 26, 2006

I feel like it wouldn't be too hard to kinda wiggle Heroquest into something more grounded if you wanted to, but also at that point, you're fighting the system somewhat. Pendragon also feels like it found a better balance than Runequest did. It's still pretty heavy, and you can die fast but it feels like it kinda knows what it wants to do better.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 03:44

NewMars: Mar 10, 2013

The solution is to make Pendragon Pass. Or remake it rather, since someone already did that but for the spectacularly ancient too-close-to-runequest 2e version.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 06:50

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

White Coke posted:

I have a question about Daga. He's an Orlanthi god but he seems to be regarded as an enemy god or is used by Orlanth to punish people. His father is Yelm or some other Solar god and while his mother Molanni is associated with Entekos who is a Dara Happan god there doesn't seem to be any analogue for him in the Dara Happan pantheon even as a foe like how Orlanth is Rebellus Terminus. What I'm wondering is if any cultures have deliberately incorporated another culture's enemy god into their pantheon in order to strengthen it, or altered the cult of one of their gods to incorporate elements of a foreign culture where their god is hostile? This seems like the sort of thing the Lunars and Nysaloreans before them might have done. The Lunars did make Yara Aranis to be an enemy of the Pentans but she was born of a goddess they feared and later apotheosized. Maybe the Yelm cult don't want to admit his bastard?

And depending on who you ask it might also have died but came back to life before the sun did with the sun possibly having only come back after the Dawn. Also it might not have initially followed the same path the sun does but zipped around, and there might have been multiple Lightfores until one was subordinated to another and it might have lost some of its brightness and power after the real sun came back, or after the Sunstop or some other magical experiment.

Daga is kept in a jar at Orlanths bedside, and so having him around to interact with in the god-time is probably hard. The 'problem' I see with your contention is that no god is inherently good or bad (though we humans probably would agree that Daga, a god of famine and drought, is bad for us), and some cultures have a god as enemy while others have the same god as an ally or even supreme king. The war of many suns that pop up routinely in here is a good example. The gods are not necessarily adopted because they are someone's enemy, but because your own circumstances have changed.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 07:57

TGG: Aug 8, 2003; "I Dare."

I think it almost hurts to view Glorantha through the lens of the books, it forces a "God Learner" mentality on the reader which I almost think is the point of the books. We should all be more like the EWF and just contemplate the deeper mysteries and perhaps bring forth a purer cleansing belief that will bring all Glorantha fans together. Unity has never hurt anything and maybe we all need to look into ourselves for the truth and stay away from building false gods out of flawed understanding of what we call "Runes". Nothing has ever gone wrong when people are united in their disparity. Praise Nysalor!

# ? Sep 23, 2023 08:56

ZeroCount: Aug 12, 2013

White Coke posted:

I do wonder how the game is going to deal with Monrogh's revelation in the Third Age. Hopefully they don't take a cowardly route and end before the timeline gets to that point. Based on what people have said about the depictions of Elmal and Yelmalio they haven't shied away from the conflict but haven't definitively taken a side. My guess is that the player's clan will have the choice of switching over to Yelmalio and that whatever decision they make will be the 'correct' one. What I'm more interested in though is how the First and Second Ages will be depicted. I hope we get to see the Bright Empire and Empire of Wyrm Friends in all their illuminated madness along with how the Elmali deal with the Yelmalios of those periods, Daysenerus and Tharkantus.

Six Ages 1 has a very similar thing happen in-game where an event brings the Hyaloring clans of the valley into contact with a drastically different interpretation of Hyalor, specifically about the events of his death and his lineage. Some clans adopt this, some oppose it and it leads to a permanent schism that almost always lasts the rest of the game. You can choose a side, engage in a lot of infighting about it, send off guys to try and find the truth yourself, etc etc. Depending on which side you take, there can be serious benefits or penalties.
It seems kind of dubious that we're ever gonna reach the Third Age anytime soon but if we do, I expect the Monrogh revelation will be mechanically treated the same.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 09:53

Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

Haystack posted:

Among other things, there's a real disconnect between how involved character creation is vs how easy it is to be one-shotted.

That's been a thing since RQ1.

Not that I'm defending it.

There's always been that disconnect between the Heroic Bronze Age Heroes! the fluff conjures up and the reality of how deadly the combat can be.

I love Glorantha as a setting but I've never found a ruleset I really like for it. Heroquest is too abstract for me and I too am burned out on d20 systems.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 09:53

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

The pragmatic problem with a radically different system that has detailed enumerated powers for each cult is you need to actually write all those cults.

Which is the issue Chaosium have. An 11 volume cults books is not enough to include every fan favourite. Let alone handle say the healing goddess of the East Isles in any other way than �it�s probably a bit like Chalana Arroy maybe?�.

You can, like questworlds, have the players basically make up their cults and powers, which works for some people. But other find it requires them to do too much homework.

A more feasible single-person project would be to stick with a BRP D100 system but with Questwords-style opposed rolls counting degrees of success, with damage coming at the end of combat.

Or just do what most people who tolerate the system do, and houserule away (or just be unaware of) the rules that make combat excessively lethal. RAW 3x location hp is Instant death, with no healing, representing beheading or being cut in half. It�s just that takes as little as 9 damage, when a typical hit from a human warrior does 1d10. +1 + 1d4.

And then there are of only specials that double that, but criticise that are worse still.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 11:10

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

I wish I was smart enough to run a proper Heroquest Glorantha setting.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 13:29

Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

Me just now: 'Say. It might be fun to try and write a Glorantha/Runequest hack for AFF2'

Me a moment later: 'Shut up Brain! You stay out of this. You've already got too many projects.'

# ? Sep 23, 2023 14:45

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

I ran a game of Heroquest once and found the system basically unusable. In the end I hacked it to the point that I might as well have just run anything else

# ? Sep 23, 2023 15:23

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

White Coke posted:

I keep bringing up the 'bizarre space battle rankings' because I think you keep dismissing what seems to me such a direct statement about not just their relative power but what established the link between Elmal and Yelmalio. I don't care about a grand unified theory of who can beat whom. I first brought up the relative strength of the two because I had seen the opposite argued, that Elmal was stronger than Yelmalio and that that was proof of their difference and then I discovered something from Stafford which said that they were the same because they were unequal.

The article you posted was very interesting and had some quotes of particular interest like:

and

but since it doesn't have any direct statements regarding the relative power of Elmal vs. Yelmalio and how that relates to the nature of their metaphysical relationship there's no relevance to it as regards this argument other than engaging in endless space battle rankings based on vibes.

I mean, it very clearly supports my claim that godly strength isn't an absolute thing, but dependent on the mortal world.

quote:

What you quoted seems to lean towards soft Elmal-is-Yelmalio-ism since it presents it as an issue yet to be fully resolved which I do find more interesting than just saying "Move along Elmal is Yelmalio nothing to see here".

The way he describes the Hero Wars as a conflict between gods via their cults for who gets to be the one true god of this-or-that is a lot more interesting than King of Sartar's "Argrath gets all the gods eaten" ending to the Hero Wars.

I have nothing against "Elmal and Yelmalio are connected" or "Elmal and Yelmalio may have some degree of shared nature," I am against it being established as absolute truth that Elmal is just a different mask of Yelmalio, and especially that this is an obvious in universe truth that everyone accepts.

quote:

It's the light of the sun that endured after Yelm's death which is why it doesn't go into the Underworld at night, but before Yelm died the sun's light was part of him so during the day Lightfore might still be in the sky but impossible to see because it is out shone by the sun or merges with it at dawn before separating again at dusk. But such a possibility cannot be entertained because of its implications.

Sure it can. Elmal having lightfore connections is fine?

quote:

If he raised Yelm from the dead then Yelm is the sun not Elmal. If Elmal isn't the sun then how does he manifest in the world and how does it make him a sun god and not a planetary god?

Yelm is the sun disk, Elmal is all the good friendly parts; mythologically, he pulls or rides the sun disk itself.

quote:

What about lynching tricksters?

As a defender cult are they responsible for rounding up and executing suspected tricksters? The stead must be guarded from internal enemies too. I keep harping on this point because Orlanthi society has its share of unpleasantness and the Elmali must surely participate in it too if they are Orlanthi. If players feel that they have to be a 'Puritanical Mormon Spartan' as I believe someone put it (quite aptly) in order to authentically play a Yelmalian then there are all sorts of unseemly behavior which have uncomfortable parallels with the real world an orthodox Elmali would have to get up to.

Elmal isn't the god of that sort of internal guardianship, except in a minor way as s god of justice. However, I would not be surprised if tricksters get lynched more often in Elmali tribes.

quote:

KoDP and SA are both set in earlier time periods. Making books to allow people to play in earlier time periods would be great but aside from Elmal there's been a bunch of changes from how things are depicted in KoDP. Should the setting also revert back to them?

If you want to preserve the rich anthropological mythohistory, then having Elmal be definitively not Yelmalio would require ignoring or removing any lore from the setting regarding Monrogh's revelation and still require taking a definitive authorial position about the nature of not just Elmal but by extension the gods in general. When people say that Elmal-is-Yelmalio is God Learnerism or Monomythism they're making a statement about the setting as a whole not just this one case.

I'm not in favor of making an ultimate statement about Elmal never under any circumstances also being Yelmalio, I'm making an argument in favour of ambiguity and complexity.

quote:

That Greg Sez article I posted was from March 2000. So to say that it'd been settled for 30 years until some grognards came in recently to mess everything up seems inaccurate to me. And wasn't Stafford involved with the early development of Runequest: Glorantha before he died? At the very least there's been ambiguity about the nature of their natures for a long time instead of a definitive separation recently undone.

Yep. What's recently undone is the open question, the complexity, and the general presence of Elmal among the Orlanthi.

quote:

Well despite his personal feelings he's going to allow them to be playable. If you don't want to play something associated with someone who has insulted the kind of character you want to play then don't, but if he had said Elmali were all well meaning but misguided holdouts would you drop your rejection of Elmal-is-Yelmalio?

I mean, he's not going to allow you to play a traditional Elmali the way they've been portrayed, with his own cult and presence in orlanthi culture. Just Yelmalions as a part of a specific subcult.

quote:

So if consistent heroquesting can change the nature of a god such as giving them a rune they might not have had, then couldn't a single incredibly powerful hero like Monrogh who could almost single handedly defeat an enemy that the kingdom of Sartar was unable to, and used that victory as proof of his revelation about the nature of his god Yelmalio vis Elmal have heroquested in such a way as to turn Elmal into Yelmalio?

Sure, and I'm sure that for him that is true. But there should still exist a large and lively tradition of Elmali, and their Truth should also still be true.

quote:

I don't quite follow regarding HeroWars and HeroQuest. Is it that Yelmalio worship was blended with Elmal worship until it was strong enough within Elmali rituals that Monrogh led mass conversions to Yelmalio? If so why did Elmali shift over to Yelmalio according to those books?

Let me just quote the book. Storm tribe:
"Orlanthi tribesmen have worshipped Elmal since the Dawn. Over the centuries, the Elmali have come in contact with many other solar cults. Some worshippers or temples have adopted foreign rites and practices, and each time they did so it led to disaster. In the time of King Tarkalor of Sartar, some temples again held to foreign customs. Trouble arose that threatened to turn to kinstrife.
Orlanth pointed out that Elmal�s brothers were again trying to make his light their own. Elmal inspired one of his worshippers who had gone wrong how to find what he wanted. Thus it was that the lord Monro discovered that he actually worshipped Yelmalio, not Elmal. He went away with the other dissenters and ended the conflict in the land. Since then, the Elmali have remained true to their original traditions."

I thought Heroquest Kingdom of Sartar had a little more, but this is what i could find:
"Elmal and Yelmalio
Since the Dawn the Orlanthi have come regularly into contact with the rich solar cultures to the north. Many of these cultures also worshiped the Sun, but in other guises. The impact of this Dara Happan culture was particularly strong; at first the impact was superficial, as the Elmali began to adopt gold as their preferred metal, later it became more substantial. In King Tarkalor�s reign Monro Lantern was one person who sought another way for the Elmali. He heroquested, and brought back Yelmalio.

The deity was already known, under different names, as the wounded sun, limping across the sky. Monro recited the List of Visionaries whose work had paved the way for the liberation of Yelmalio among people."

quote:

To build off of the three I mentioned:

1) If Elmal can't be Yelmalio because Elmal is the sun and Yelmalio is Lightfore, but Shargash is Tolat because they are both the Red Planet then that suggests all gods which share the same celestial body or other embodied physical feature or natural process, like death, are the same god. This would mean Elmal is Yelm, which seems to be what many Elmali were coming around to before Monrogh got them to worship Yelmalio instead.

I'm not familliar with Shargash and Tolat, but the differences betwee Elmal and Yelmalio are a lot more than Sun vs Lightfore. However, I don' think that all gods who are gods of the same thing should be the same god, but i also don't mind if some gods of similar things get syncretized by the people of Glorantha. Gods are as much about culture as about whatever phenomena they embody in the natural world.

quote:

2) When is a sun the sun? When they have the Fire rune instead of Light? Shargash has the Fire rune and was also a sun during the Greater Darkness but is now a planet. If a planet can have the Fire rune why can't a sun have the Light rune? Must all gods be locked into having specific runes because of the roles they fulfill? Isn't that God Learnerism, to say that gods have to have specific runes in order to fulfill their requisite functions and from there you say that all those gods must be the same because they have the same runes and do the same things? If one rejects the idea that sharing the same runes means that two gods have to be the same, but doesn't also reject the idea that two gods can actually be the same then why do they have to have identical runes?

God's runes should describe the things they do. The light rune is specifically for light-without-heat, and that's not the thing Elmal does; it also exists mostly for Yelmalio, so it's a sticking point. But there's no reason to believe that two gods with the same runes must be the same god. That said, if gods have different runes, they are probably at best aspects of a greater truth in some manner.

quote:

3) The Guide to Glorantha says that some Pentan tribes worship Storm gods and lists them plus their Orlanthi analogues. This is presented as a recent development. I think it might not just be post Sheng Seleris but within living memory. The Guide mentions a new tribe, the Women Warriors, who reject the traditional gender norms for men and women but does say that the Storm tribes "maintain the ancient social structure derived from Kargzant". The implication is that these are the Orlanthi gods but adapted to local conditions. There isn't any mention of them being Lunar New Gods or recently rediscovered Pentan gods from the God Time. I'm unaware of where it is mentioned that the Pentans used to worship the Storm gods, so they've quite dramatically reinterpreted gods who are foreign to them. There isn't mention of a revelation like Monrogh's but it does show that gods can be rather radically reinterpreted, even renamed, but still be the same, which fits in with at least a soft Elmal-is-Yelmalio interpretation. Is such an interpretation to be thrown out because of its implications?

Oh, this is actually a very good set of questions, lets explore them a bit. So, this is fundamentally the same question as the real world question of 'is Mars and Ares the same' or 'Is Aphordite the same as Astarte' or 'is Inanna the same as Ishtar'. These are pretty interesting questions! We also have Greg's reference or Worlanth as 'an inferior manifestation.'
So let's consider, when is a god the same or a different god. To be clear, i don't think there's a correct answer to this, but these are the things I'd concider, in mostly no particualar order.

Do they fulfill similar roles in the mythology? That is, do their myths serve to explain the origin and reasons of the same things? Humakt's mythology serves to explain the nature of death and its impartiality, does the North War Wind do the same? He is also a war-god, related to the role of death in war, does that relate to the North War Wind as well?
Do the worshipers of the gods have a shared mythology? Are their stories of the gods similar, and when they diverge do they diverge in meaningful ways or in minor ones? For example, does the West King Wind fight a solar emperor? Does he gather lieutenants to his and struggle for mastery of the world? Does he set out on the lightbringers' quest?
As a related - and probably one of the most important - question, do the worshipers acknowledge the other god as their own, and is that reciprocal? Would a storm tribe pentan and an orlanthi noble look at the rites, etc of the other and consider it a (possibly wrong/misguided/etc) version of their own?

And let's consider 'inferior manifestations'. When can we say that so-and-so god is a lesser version of another? well, i think, when that god's myths serve to explain things, but explains them in less depth and with less completeness than the more complete version, but explain fundamentally similar things in fundamentally similar ways. E.g. a version of Orlanth where the lightbringer's quest is missing or less important has a less complete version of why Orlanth is currently the big man on campus. One which does not have his relationship to Ernalda or Heler says less about why and how the air fertilizes the earth, etc.

That said, the question is complex, and when gods are the same and when they're different is something that different people (including in setting, importantly!) will judge differently. That's good! that's a source of drama and interest!

# ? Sep 23, 2023 16:58

White Coke: May 29, 2015

Tias posted:

Daga is kept in a jar at Orlanths bedside, and so having him around to interact with in the god-time is probably hard. The 'problem' I see with your contention is that no god is inherently good or bad (though we humans probably would agree that Daga, a god of famine and drought, is bad for us), and some cultures have a god as enemy while others have the same god as an ally or even supreme king. The war of many suns that pop up routinely in here is a good example. The gods are not necessarily adopted because they are someone's enemy, but because your own circumstances have changed.

Daga is sometimes kept in a jar until used by Orlanth, sometimes he's just driven away by Orlanth so he might be contactable. Not to mention what might have been possible during the Windstop. Wakboth is the god of capital 'E' Evil, but he's the exception that proves the rule. Also an enemy god is a god, or culturally relativized version of one, which a culture views as evil, hostile, misguided, or otherwise opposed to their pantheon and so will probably be seen as inherently evil by that culture. We as players might take the position that all the gods (except Wakboth) aren't inherently good or bad but are unilluminated characters going to all share that perspective? The Orlanthi view the red planet as Orlanth's enemy Jagrekriand whom they conflate with (and he may actually be) Shargash, from the Orlanthi perspective Jagrekriand is the evil murderer of Umath and they don't see the positives of Shargash since some of those positive aspects are directed against them. I asked about the Lunar or Bright empire incorporating Daga because they'd definitely see being able to spread drought and famine in order to advance their cause as a good thing. The Nysalorean Riddlers spread diseases only they could cure and the Lunars use the Crimson Bat among many other Chaotic things. Given the different climates of Peoria and Dragon Pass they might see some other positive side to Daga that the Orlanthi don't, like how they see the still air of Molanni/Entekos in a favorable light unlike the Orlanthi.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 17:06

Ataxerxes: Dec 2, 2011; What is a soldier but a miserable pile of eaten cats and strange language?

Spiderfist Island posted:

Sure! Here's my attempt to expound on some elements of them:
...

Anyways, that all is what I've got in terms of coherent thoughts on how I'd handle my own addition to the endless attempts at a Glorantha RPG.

That sounds like a great idea. Runequest has , for me, always been a game that promises something and delivers something entirely else and a new Glorantha game that is mechanically deep but not rooted in the 70's design would be awesome.
Much as I like 13th Age Glorantha it is limited by the class and level system and being d20 based. And Heroquest has, for the few times I have played it, been too generic and bland.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 17:06

wiegieman: Apr 22, 2010; Royalty is a continuous cutting motion

The point I was trying to make with the Shargash/Tolat thing is that, even through they're both gods of the red planet, they're different gods because they're gods of different people. Shargash isn't Tolat, he's the Demon Sun of Dara Happa, the husband of Oslira and Yelm's dread enforcer. Tolat is the Artmali war god who subdues the ocean and raises the land.

There are more worshipers of Tolat than there are of Shargash in the world. That doesn't make Shargash any less real and he's not getting written out of any books any time soon. (In fact, he gets a lot more copy than Tolat does -- because most of the books are set in or near areas where people worship Shargash, not Tolat.)

That said, Tolat and Shargash have the same runes, which means that they arise from the same source and perform similar functions. It's easy to syncretize them, but that's a mistake that will get you killed by an Alkothi demon man or a Tolat crusader. It's a mistake the God Learners made, but not the one that killed them.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 17:29

TGG: Aug 8, 2003; "I Dare."

When it comes to individual cults among Gloranthans the words of Koh-Stan-Za, Lord of Failure, King of False Hopes and He Who Should Be His Opposite are most applicable. He spoke truth to his kinsman at the house of Monks and made the proclamation �It Is Not A Lie If You Believe It.�

# ? Sep 23, 2023 17:49

White Coke: May 29, 2015

wiegieman posted:

The point I was trying to make with the Shargash/Tolat thing is that, even through they're both gods of the red planet, they're different gods because they're gods of different people. Shargash isn't Tolat, he's the Demon Sun of Dara Happa, the husband of Oslira and Yelm's dread enforcer. Tolat is the Artmali war god who subdues the ocean and raises the land.

There are more worshipers of Tolat than there are of Shargash in the world. That doesn't make Shargash any less real and he's not getting written out of any books any time soon. (In fact, he gets a lot more copy than Tolat does -- because most of the books are set in or near areas where people worship Shargash, not Tolat.)

That said, Tolat and Shargash have the same runes, which means that they arise from the same source and perform similar functions. It's easy to syncretize them, but that's a mistake that will get you killed by an Alkothi demon man or a Tolat crusader. It's a mistake the God Learners made, but not the one that killed them.

Syncretization wasn't unique to the God Learners. The Unity council spread their religion too. And even before they got to Ralios they syncretized the Lightbringers and associated gods from the small communities they found in Kethaela and Dragon Pass. What confuses me is that when people denounce God Learnerism and its attendant syncretism it sometimes sounds like they want all the gods in the setting to be wholly distinct and separate when they aren't given how existing gods can incorporate myths, forms of worship, and even the names of other similar gods. If they are supposed to be wholly separate then everyone seems to keep doing God Learnerism for some reason.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 17:52

Narsham: Jun 5, 2008

NewMars posted:

I'm reading up on the pamaltan materials by greg and... they're actually really good? And extremely different from the dragon pass and greater genertelan perspective we get. Particularly interesting is that they hate sacrifice to gods, but are fine with a person pursuing absolute dedication to one. They also have a very interesting perspective on spirits.

So, pamalta is the big animism continent, right. So you'd expect them to like spirits a lot? Except, no, they hate them. The spirit world is a place of vampiric half-complete beings called spirits. But spirits in the physical world are something different to them, what they call "natural creatures." So spirits with a body are good, without a body are very bad. And their shamans pursue immortality as a goal. See, physical health is a righteous pursuit and you can enhance it by pursuing balance with the natural and the peak of this balance is to integrate as many spirits into your physical body as possible, to give yourself completeness: immortality and wisdom. This is absolutely nothing like how shamans and the like interact with spirits in runequest or heroquest as given or in stuff like six ages, all in the genertelan perspective.

Interesting! I wonder if part of that isn't Pamalt surviving, and thus providing a pattern for their shamans to pursue immortality because Pamalt survived? That would imply that the nature of spirits and their connection to the natural world in Genertelia was largely shaped by Genert's death.

Tias posted:

I suppose. However, direct confrontation between deities in debate has been a thing in the RL world as well. While christianizing Scandinavia, missionaries had to convince the heathens living there that A) Jesus could best Thor in a fight and B) Jesus was a strong, mail-wearing tribal lord, not unlike the visage of Odin.

Also, if Humakt is a chaos-god by his actions, Eurmal and Orlanth are too.

On the first point, I'd say, exactly. Except that it isn't so much "here's a story of how my god can beat your god," because it's possible to exhibit your god's power in the real world and even embody your god to at least some degree. And I'd say the key point if you're trying to prove, say, that Elmal is actually Yelmalio, isn't to set up a fight between them because if they are the same god, how in the hell can they fight? The real argument is that "you have lost your way to the true Yelmalio, and your rituals and rites are thus less effective," probably with some blame aimed at the locals' enemies politically or culturally. Then your champion draws upon the power of Yelmalio to perform some great task and demonstrates that, truly, your rites and rituals access the god more powerfully. All of this is potentially proving something objective, but it is as likely or more likely that what's really happening is contingent on the "real-world" status of those contending over the issue and how well they can sway the people around them.

It's as likely that Elmal starts out as a useful accommodation/legend to explain the merging of Dara Happan refugees during the Darknesses with the local Orlanthi, and that this arrangement worked fine so long as each group had a viable path to rulership. Then things broke down in multiple ways, partly with the rise of the Orlanthi over the Elmali, partly with the marriage into the Horse Tribe complicating the positioning of one sun cult against another, and partly with other cults taking the forefront as war leaders (Orlanth, of course, but also increasingly Urox and Humakt as darkness became less of a threat as compared to chaos). When Elmal's incorporation into proto-Sartarite society involves equal status, that's very different from Elmal becoming increasingly subordinated culturally as Orlanth's portfolio expands. Yelmalio offers an alternative model that gets the sun cult out from under the heel of the local air cultists, and that's going to appeal regardless of the truth or falsity of Yelmalio being Elmal or one deity being stronger than the other: one is demonstrably more efficacious at this place and time, and the idea that you're not changing cults but rather correcting rituals that were corrupted or weakened due to the desire of the air cults to be supreme helps avoid potential issues like being killed by Elmal's Spirits of Vengeance.

That the underlying mythic and mystic maneuverings may have more in common with Arkati-style manipulations of deific portfolios or with Godlearner experiments than with more traditional "discovery through heroquesting" really doesn't matter if you're not in a position to tell the difference, and frankly, almost nobody would be.

As for chaos-gods, I think there's a clear implication that EVERY wave of incoming deities represent the potential to either destroy the world or reshape it. Darkness maybe came closer to destroying the pre-dark world, and Umath's arrival is probably next-most destructive, with the difference between most of the Storm gods and the Chaos gods who came in at about the same "time" being that Umath wanted to lay claim to a place in the world where Chaos wants to revert the entire world back into Chaos. But this isn't something safe to discuss culturally as there's actual situations where this kind of intellectual exercise leads to people in town transforming into Chaos monsters; the Illumination path might make conversations safer, but only if you don't think Illumination is an even worse form of Chaos.

The Lunars are curious because the Red Goddess is either the newest interloper attempting to integrate into the world, or a well-established part of the world attempting to integrate Chaos more broadly into the world. That the Lunars are hypocritical about what they're doing--for example, apparently leaving the Crimson Bat unintegrated while freely "converting" broos and the like--needn't necessarily prove that their ideas are bad, and their primary conflict with the Storm cultists matches every other stage where it's the latest "invaders" who become dominant and then challenged by the next group. The key question "can we trust her" is obviously ambiguous at this point in its answer, and the extent to which the problem might be solved not by the Red Goddess but by the moon to come just further complicates everything.

Deptfordx posted:

That's been a thing since RQ1.

Not that I'm defending it.

There's always been that disconnect between the Heroic Bronze Age Heroes! the fluff conjures up and the reality of how deadly the combat can be.

I love Glorantha as a setting but I've never found a ruleset I really like for it. Heroquest is too abstract for me and I too am burned out on d20 systems.

Just letting healing magic bring people back within a minute or so of injury solves many of those issues, but I agree that the ruleset has not aged well and the official alternatives have their own problems.

I think a 4E modification would work well: I ran heroquests in a 4E game and granting hero powers in-system is extremely easy. The problem, as with most 4E hacks, is that it'd take a tremendous amount of time and effort to generate the powers necessary to support RQ in 4E.

Years back I thought the FATE system would adapt very well to Glorantha and to heroquesting, in particular, using Hero Points and compels as the central questing mechanism. I still think that would work. The problem with such conversions is that because Glorantha as a setting is so rich, the immediate instinct is to complicate mechanics. For example, you could have the various rune affinities give you a set number of "starting" rune points in every affinity, that could be spent like fate points to operate related powers or rune magic, or even to do things that match with that rune. Instead of tracking castings or points of rune magic, you'd power such things out of your affinities and recover rune points through participating in rituals or holy days or events. Heroquesting requires that you're spending lots of these points, though you may get some or all back at the end of the quest; your ritual support and other such elements might give you a refresh, plus on most quests you'll want to accept compels to earn even more, but encountering someone doing a counter-quest could suddenly cost a lot of resources unexpectedly.

I don't know if it's worth the work involved, though, because even FATE is getting long in the tooth. Maybe one of the simple "failure/succeed at cost/total success" systems would work better.

# ? Sep 23, 2023 19:53

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

Magnusth posted:

I have nothing against "Elmal and Yelmalio are connected" or "Elmal and Yelmalio may have some degree of shared nature," I am against it being established as absolute truth that Elmal is just a different mask of Yelmalio, and especially that this is an obvious in universe truth that everyone accepts.

Then you are in luck, because I�ve not see any attempt to establish that.

What there is is a book series called Cults of Runequest, which will reportedly state as a game rule that Elmal is a _subcult_ of Yelmalio. Subcult is a rule term that mean you can potentially worship at, and learn magic from, multiple sub cults of the same cult without hitting game mechanical consequences like sprits of reprisal or split rune pools.

As is the purpose of game rules, this answers practical in-play questions like �if my Elmali worshipper signs up for a term of service with the Sun Dome Templars, does he get kicked out of the clan?�

To attempt an analogy, say season 1 of a TV sitcom features a love triangle between Pat, Lesley and Sam. In Season 2 Pat and Sam get married. Does that settle the question of whether Lesley is Pat�s true love? No, all it means is they got married. Maybe they will divorce later. Maybe they will be ok, but notI as perfectly happy as they could have been. The point is, it would be really impractical to film a whole season of a sitcom while maintains ambiguity between who is living and sleeping with who. And if you did, there would be a real disconnect between the characters, who would know that, and the viewers who didn�t.

I do kind of dislike the term �sub cult�, because it implies a hierarchical relationship where one rarely actually exists. But tht goes back to RQ2, so you can probably blame Steve Perrin.

# ? Sep 24, 2023 12:32

Narsham: Jun 5, 2008

radmonger posted:

Then you are in luck, because I�ve not see any attempt to establish that.

What there is is a book series called Cults of Runequest, which will reportedly state as a game rule that Elmal is a _subcult_ of Yelmalio. Subcult is a rule term that mean you can potentially worship at, and learn magic from, multiple sub cults of the same cult without hitting game mechanical consequences like sprits of reprisal or split rune pools.

As is the purpose of game rules, this answers practical in-play questions like �if my Elmali worshipper signs up for a term of service with the Sun Dome Templars, does he get kicked out of the clan?�

To attempt an analogy, say season 1 of a TV sitcom features a love triangle between Pat, Lesley and Sam. In Season 2 Pat and Sam get married. Does that settle the question of whether Lesley is Pat�s true love? No, all it means is they got married. Maybe they will divorce later. Maybe they will be ok, but notI as perfectly happy as they could have been. The point is, it would be really impractical to film a whole season of a sitcom while maintains ambiguity between who is living and sleeping with who. And if you did, there would be a real disconnect between the characters, who would know that, and the viewers who didn�t.

I do kind of dislike the term �sub cult�, because it implies a hierarchical relationship where one rarely actually exists. But tht goes back to RQ2, so you can probably blame Steve Perrin.

I really don't want to restart an argument here with this observation, but as I understand it, there's a huge difference between "two rival cults with deities situated predominantly in different pantheons that are constantly at odds for largely political reasons but where individual temples or even priests may end up taking sides that differ from the majority" and "one cult that's a subcult of another cult" and that appears more nuanced than what the latest Runequest has done.

It's especially significant in this instance, where many Orlanthi worshipers in Dragon Pass and Prax had strong reasons to want to undermine the Elmal cult and were happy enough using the "newer" Yelmalian cult to do so, but then it turned out that a substantial subset of the Yelmalian cult (as part of the Sky pantheon and loyal to Yelm) were actually supportive of the Lunar Empire that was trying to displace the Orlanthi. Oops!

Even better, if you're playing as rebel Orlanthi you can quickly find out that Yelmalians have radically differing opinions of the Lunar Empire and you can quite possibly work with some against them if you pick the right ones. But if you do that, are you alienating the few Elmali still around?

Ending that story with "Monrough proved Elmal was just a subcult of Yelmalio, the end" completely eliminates any interesting stories that would otherwise inevitably come of the Elmal cult being threatened. I mean, on some level it's a microcosmic version of doing "Orlanth is Dead!" and declaring that the only way Orlanthi can get any magic from that point through to the end of Time is through the Lunars. You had a great opportunity for an adventure or even a whole campaign and you just wrote that possibility away instead.

Cults of Runequest: The Prosopaedia, writes of Elmal

quote:

Elmal was worshiped by the Orlanthi at the Dawn, until contact with solar cultures revealed him to be another name for Yelmalio.

I should probably be more upset at the suggestion that the Orlanthi had no contact with solar cultures before the Dawn, which is just laughably wrong, but this retcons a really interesting political dynamic and subthread in favor of, uh, being more boring, I guess? And it doesn't seem as nuanced as you're suggesting. I admit I'm less eager to get the Sky and Storm books after seeing what the Prosopaedia is doing in terms of flattening complexity. Keep the complex cultural and political Glorantha and simplify the rules, instead!

# ? Sep 24, 2023 19:24

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

radmonger posted:

Then you are in luck, because I�ve not see any attempt to establish that.

What there is is a book series called Cults of Runequest, which will reportedly state as a game rule that Elmal is a _subcult_ of Yelmalio. Subcult is a rule term that mean you can potentially worship at, and learn magic from, multiple sub cults of the same cult without hitting game mechanical consequences like sprits of reprisal or split rune pools.

As is the purpose of game rules, this answers practical in-play questions like �if my Elmali worshipper signs up for a term of service with the Sun Dome Templars, does he get kicked out of the clan?�

Or we can see what the book says...

"A subcult is a smaller and often local version of a cult, which worships a local variant of the deity, a minor god subservient to the deity, an ancient hero, family ancestors, or an obscure spirit surviving from the God Time. Such deities are always worshiped as aspects of, or otherwise in association with a greater deity. The lesser deity obtains its glory and existence from the larger cult.
The subcult has no existence independent of the larger cult. Major cults always include subcults; some cults like Orlanth have subcults of minor deities and spirits and/or dead heroes. These entities depend completely upon the central deity for existence: they are not worshiped outside the cult. Some, like Orlanth, have over a dozen commonly recognized subcults. A subcult provides access to additional Rune spells, spirit magic, skills, or powers to initiates of the greater cult who also worship through the subcult."

That's the RQ:G explanation of subcults. When Jeff says that the Elmal cult exist as a subcult of Yelmalio, this is exactly what he means, that Elmal's cult exist only as a part of Yelmalio's, that all Elmal worship is subsumed by Yelmalio.

And Jeff has said, many times, that this is an obvious truth to everyone in setting - i quoted him earlier saying that if you're an Elmali who doesn't think Elmal is Yelmalio, you're perverse and in denial about what your own cultic rituals and divination tell you and probably get tossed out of the cult for heresy. Jeff 100% intends 'Elmal is just Yelmalio" to be an absolute, in-universe truth.

# ? Sep 24, 2023 21:04

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

I was hoping the cults books would clear up the rules in this area, perhaps introducing some new term like cognate cult. Because that text clearly doesn�t describe the relation of other �sub cults� like Shargash and Tolat. So there is no reason to assume it applies here.

As a deity, Elmal is clearly not a lesser or subservient figure to Yelmalio; neither has any myths of one being the others cup bearer. Instead, what Yelmalans and most Elmali believe is that Yelmalio is Elmal �grown up�. Once Orlanth left the world, the junior patrol thane got promoted to being in charge of the defences. This makes them cognate cults; magically this demonstrably works.

As a cult, Elmal is clearly smaller than Yelmalio, having perhaps two minor temples in its own right. Both of which are integrated into the Orlanthi tribal system, and so can�t really be called politically or economically independent of the Orlanth cult.

I don�t see any useful way of adding ambiguity to any of that that wouldn�t resolve to PCs in setting not knowing what spells they could cast.

# ? Sep 24, 2023 23:17

White Coke: May 29, 2015

Magnusth posted:

I mean, it very clearly supports my claim that godly strength isn't an absolute thing, but dependent on the mortal world.

[...]

Let me just quote the book. Storm tribe:
"Orlanthi tribesmen have worshipped Elmal since the Dawn. Over the centuries, the Elmali have come in contact with many other solar cults. Some worshippers or temples have adopted foreign rites and practices, and each time they did so it led to disaster. In the time of King Tarkalor of Sartar, some temples again held to foreign customs. Trouble arose that threatened to turn to kinstrife.
Orlanth pointed out that Elmal�s brothers were again trying to make his light their own. Elmal inspired one of his worshippers who had gone wrong how to find what he wanted. Thus it was that the lord Monro discovered that he actually worshipped Yelmalio, not Elmal. He went away with the other dissenters and ended the conflict in the land. Since then, the Elmali have remained true to their original traditions."

I thought Heroquest Kingdom of Sartar had a little more, but this is what i could find:
"Elmal and Yelmalio
Since the Dawn the Orlanthi have come regularly into contact with the rich solar cultures to the north. Many of these cultures also worshiped the Sun, but in other guises. The impact of this Dara Happan culture was particularly strong; at first the impact was superficial, as the Elmali began to adopt gold as their preferred metal, later it became more substantial. In King Tarkalor�s reign Monro Lantern was one person who sought another way for the Elmali. He heroquested, and brought back Yelmalio.

The deity was already known, under different names, as the wounded sun, limping across the sky. Monro recited the List of Visionaries whose work had paved the way for the liberation of Yelmalio among people."

[...]

I'm not familliar with Shargash and Tolat, but the differences betwee Elmal and Yelmalio are a lot more than Sun vs Lightfore. However, I don' think that all gods who are gods of the same thing should be the same god, but i also don't mind if some gods of similar things get syncretized by the people of Glorantha. Gods are as much about culture as about whatever phenomena they embody in the natural world.

God's runes should describe the things they do. The light rune is specifically for light-without-heat, and that's not the thing Elmal does; it also exists mostly for Yelmalio, so it's a sticking point. But there's no reason to believe that two gods with the same runes must be the same god. That said, if gods have different runes, they are probably at best aspects of a greater truth in some manner.

[...]

And let's consider 'inferior manifestations'. When can we say that so-and-so god is a lesser version of another? well, i think, when that god's myths serve to explain things, but explains them in less depth and with less completeness than the more complete version, but explain fundamentally similar things in fundamentally similar ways. E.g. a version of Orlanth where the lightbringer's quest is missing or less important has a less complete version of why Orlanth is currently the big man on campus. One which does not have his relationship to Ernalda or Heler says less about why and how the air fertilizes the earth, etc.

Can you clarify some things for me? You previously said:

Magnusth posted:

Because gods don't have agency, and their strength exists primarily in relationship to mortals.

[...]

If the main Elmal cult consistently heroquest a version of Elmal with the fire rune then... Elmal has the fire rune. Like, that's how heroquesting works. If you consistently quest in a partcular way, you can (and do) affect the gods

If the gods' power is primarily determined by their worshippers, and even their runes can be altered through experimental Heroquesting then would the gods have any fundamental essence of their own or are they just constructs formed of mortal belief? That Storm Tribe quote presents Elmal gently expelling the worshippers who have altered his rites too much by redirecting their worship to the proper god, but you seem to say that gods are ultimately at the mercy of their worshippers regarding their nature.

My understanding is that the gods are fixed by their action in Godtime and attempts to change them without breaking the Compromise can work temporarily but will eventually lead to them reverting like what happened with the God Learners, but because much knowledge of the gods is still lost and given how different cultures myths have been forced into a single world they can potential be radically "altered" from the perspectives of their worshippers.

Magnusth posted:

I have nothing against "Elmal and Yelmalio are connected" or "Elmal and Yelmalio may have some degree of shared nature," I am against it being established as absolute truth that Elmal is just a different mask of Yelmalio, and especially that this is an obvious in universe truth that everyone accepts.

[...]

I'm not in favor of making an ultimate statement about Elmal never under any circumstances also being Yelmalio, I'm making an argument in favour of ambiguity and complexity.

Yep. What's recently undone is the open question, the complexity, and the general presence of Elmal among the Orlanthi.

I mean, he's not going to allow you to play a traditional Elmali the way they've been portrayed, with his own cult and presence in orlanthi culture. Just Yelmalions as a part of a specific subcult.

Sure, and I'm sure that for him that is true. But there should still exist a large and lively tradition of Elmali, and their Truth should also still be true.

Why? There are sociopolitical reasons for why Elmal worship would have declined aside from the metaphysical truth of Monrogh's revelation, and unless the size and uniformity of a god's cult is the only thing that matters their Truth would still be true. Plus there is still a group of Elmali who don't admit Yelmalians or accept that Elmal is Yelmaio:

radmonger posted:

Of the two remaining tribal temple controlled by the Elmal cult, one admits Yelamians and one does not.

How large of a presence do you want them to have? Depending on the ratio of Elmali to Yelmalians there are different kinds of stories you can tell and while you may not want to tell any stories about Elmali being reduced to a minority there are some who will want to play as an embattled, almost extinct minority plus people might want to tell stories about how the absence of Elmali has changed the broader culture, like how with most Elmali converted and moved south to the Sun Domes there aren't any Elmali around to participate in Sacred Time rites so they have to find a replacement which could mean traveling until they find an Elmali who might be from a hostile tribe, getting a Yelmalian, or finding some other solar god worshipper. We can all come up with all sorts of story ideas based on the different numbers and status of Elmal, some speak more to you and its unfortunate that the current lore is something that you find not just un-compelling but repellant but it's how things have been written and it'd require changing a lot of material. For example I think that the loss of the majority of Elmali is supposed to have critically weakened Dragon Pass militarily, with their conversion to Yelmalians being a political lesser evil since the Elmali were being lured over into Yelm worship and thus Lunar influence. Get rid of that and does the Kingdom of Sartar fall? If it doesn't then the Holy Country won't come under siege and does Belintar still disappear?

Magnusth posted:

Yelm is the sun disk, Elmal is all the good friendly parts; mythologically, he pulls or rides the sun disk itself.

Is that a distinction they'd have made at the Dawn? King of Sartar just says that in the First Age the Orlanthi called him the sun god until they met the Dara Happans and acknowledged that Yelm was the sun too and that the Dara Happans worshipped Yelm, not Yelm through Elmal.

As you describe him Elmal sounds like Galanin who pulls the solar disk Ehilm in Ralian Orlanthi myth. Interestingly in the Prosopaedia both Ehilm and Galanin have double Fire runes (with Galanin also having the Beast rune) so there's the implication that Galanin might just provide access to Ehilm, but it could also be that they share the mastery of the Fire rune that having two copies signifies.

Narsham posted:

I should probably be more upset at the suggestion that the Orlanthi had no contact with solar cultures before the Dawn, which is just laughably wrong, but this retcons a really interesting political dynamic and subthread in favor of, uh, being more boring, I guess? And it doesn't seem as nuanced as you're suggesting. I admit I'm less eager to get the Sky and Storm books after seeing what the Prosopaedia is doing in terms of flattening complexity. Keep the complex cultural and political Glorantha and simplify the rules, instead!

The Orlanthi civilization at the Dawn was a post-apocalyptic society. There wasn't even much of a society beyond individual families and small tribes. They had lost most of their knowledge of their gods and their Storm Age civilization, let alone other peoples' gods and civilizations and as they spread they learned more about their own past first. Plus given the weirdness of Godtime the solar cultures they had had contact with weren't quite the solar cultures they would go on to make contact with after the Dawn. In the Godtime Yelm was The Bad Emperor while to the Dara Happans Orlanth was Rebellus Terminus. Elmal wasn't the son of Yelm he was the son of the dead Emperor.

# ? Sep 25, 2023 05:13

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

White Coke posted:

Can you clarify some things for me? You previously said:

If the gods' power is primarily determined by their worshippers, and even their runes can be altered through experimental Heroquesting then would the gods have any fundamental essence of their own or are they just constructs formed of mortal belief? That Storm Tribe quote presents Elmal gently expelling the worshippers who have altered his rites too much by redirecting their worship to the proper god, but you seem to say that gods are ultimately at the mercy of their worshippers regarding their nature.

My understanding is that the gods are fixed by their action in Godtime and attempts to change them without breaking the Compromise can work temporarily but will eventually lead to them reverting like what happened with the God Learners, but because much knowledge of the gods is still lost and given how different cultures myths have been forced into a single world they can potential be radically "altered" from the perspectives of their worshippers.

So, to clarify that quote, it's from the myth and history section, it should, I think, be understood as what loyal Elmali think, not as a hard statement of fact.

As for the metaphysics, my understanding is like this: the gods are real and exist, both within the god's world, which is the metaphysical underpinning, the realm of explanation, more than it is the past, and also manifest in the world in specific ways. Heler is embodied in the rain, Orlanth in the wind and in orlanthi social structures etc. However, as a part of the comprise, they cannot act. They are static unless acted upon.

Humans, however, do have agency, and can act. Through worship and heroquesting, they can enter the gods world and make real changes and real differences. Greg gives an example how how that might look with Yelmalio and Fire, but it has happened before - Orlanth Rex and and establishment of kingship over priests seem to have been one such change, for example. The Red Empress is another major one! Note here, this is not a question of belief, but of action and ritual. You must connect with the gods on the god world and change the myth, enter into the metaphysical underpinning of the world to change things, and you must do it on a wide enough scale. Otherwise you can change the truth for you, but not for the world as a whole. There are other examples of this, it is (on the historical scale) relatively common. Some get reset to some degree, others don't.

White Coke posted:

Why? There are sociopolitical reasons for why Elmal worship would have declined aside from the metaphysical truth of Monrogh's revelation, and unless the size and uniformity of a god's cult is the only thing that matters their Truth would still be true. Plus there is still a group of Elmali who don't admit Yelmalians or accept that Elmal is Yelmaio:

Not according to Jeff!

"
So as of 1625, it makes sense to speak of the Yelmalio cult in Sartar, most of which is focused on the Sun Dome Temple as their religious center. This cult is inter-tribal. There is a small group centred on Runegate that still puts Yelmalio into a tribal cult structure, but otherwise, most Yelmalio cultists that live outside of Sun Dome County look to the Sun Dome temple for militia duties, religious ceremonies, etc.

The bulk of the 250 Yelmalio cultists around Runegate belong to the Enyhli Clan, but the Narri have a fair number as well. The cultists around Runegate worship Yelmalio as an associate of Orlanth Rex. They don’t use the pike, they ride horses, etc. As described in the cult writeup"

quote:

How large of a presence do you want them to have? Depending on the ratio of Elmali to Yelmalians there are different kinds of stories you can tell and while you may not want to tell any stories about Elmali being reduced to a minority there are some who will want to play as an embattled, almost extinct minority plus people might want to tell stories about how the absence of Elmali has changed the broader culture, like how with most Elmali converted and moved south to the Sun Domes there aren't any Elmali around to participate in Sacred Time rites so they have to find a replacement which could mean traveling until they find an Elmali who might be from a hostile tribe, getting a Yelmalian, or finding some other solar god worshipper. We can all come up with all sorts of story ideas based on the different numbers and status of Elmal, some speak more to you and its unfortunate that the current lore is something that you find not just un-compelling but repellant but it's how things have been written and it'd require changing a lot of material. For example I think that the loss of the majority of Elmali is supposed to have critically weakened Dragon Pass militarily, with their conversion to Yelmalians being a political lesser evil since the Elmali were being lured over into Yelm worship and thus Lunar influence. Get rid of that and does the Kingdom of Sartar fall? If it doesn't then the Holy Country won't come under siege and does Belintar still disappear?

The cult has been comfortably written as having a minor but real presence in sartar for decades. I don't mind Elmal being a relatively minor cult, but there's a world of difference between a relatively minor cult with one major temple and being a subcult of Yelmalio. A few Elmali clans, a few of the tribes might have shrines, not much more than that. Compare Jeff's "250 cultists around runegate" to Sartar Kingdom of heroes listing 1000 Vs Yelmalio 3000 in Sartar. This is how things have been written for decades, it is Jeff changing things to insist on a single monomythic Truth that requires changing material.

quote:

Is that a distinction they'd have made at the Dawn? King of Sartar just says that in the First Age the Orlanthi called him the sun god until they met the Dara Happans and acknowledged that Yelm was the sun too and that the Dara Happans worshipped Yelm, not Yelm through Elmal.

Seems like a fairly reasonable distinction to make. Whether or it they made it at dawn, it is how Elmal is portrayed in e.g. the guide.

# ? Sep 25, 2023 12:21

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

250 around Runegate, 200 in the south, 10 other clans that have a shrine and you can easily get to 1000. Or maybe the numbers dropped slightly over the decade to 1625, now the Sun Domers are officially an ally rather than enemy.

As you see in King of Dragon Pass, most Elmali are individuals within majority-Orlanthi clans. There are only one or two majority-Elmali clans. You play such a clan in Six Ages, but there they are one clan amongst many.

A piece of advice that deserves to be explicitly written down is that if you are running a clan-based campaign, you first find out what cults your players are interested in. Those are the shrines that clan maintains. If you can�t subtly discourage a player from generating say a Wachaza cultist, then it�s time to find out why that clan has an Wachaza shrine.

# ? Sep 25, 2023 16:06

Narsham: Jun 5, 2008

White Coke posted:

The Orlanthi civilization at the Dawn was a post-apocalyptic society. There wasn't even much of a society beyond individual families and small tribes. They had lost most of their knowledge of their gods and their Storm Age civilization, let alone other peoples' gods and civilizations and as they spread they learned more about their own past first. Plus given the weirdness of Godtime the solar cultures they had had contact with weren't quite the solar cultures they would go on to make contact with after the Dawn. In the Godtime Yelm was The Bad Emperor while to the Dara Happans Orlanth was Rebellus Terminus. Elmal wasn't the son of Yelm he was the son of the dead Emperor.

"After the Dawn" is radically distinct from "early in the Third Age" in my mind and my understanding of Glorantha is that not everyone accepts Elmal is Yelmalio even in the Third Age, but this is all nitpicking.

This isn't precisely "nobody has any gods or rituals left" Dawn era, because if you want to get that granular, "I Fought, We Won" is a complete breakdown of society even past the level of the family. But the POINT of it is that everyone is alone and everyone is together. But that doesn't matter, because also nobody has very good records from back then and there's no way to know whether Elmal as understood in a specific part of Dragon Pass early in the Third Age bears much resemblance to Elmal immediately after the Dawn, or to Elmal during the Darknesses. Separate son of Yelm, or total miscommunication?

The point is that trying to define away that ambiguity is poisonous to game-play. Worse, it's thinking that nailing down what should be nailed down on the rules-side of things actually means nailing down in-game concepts. Even there, I'd prefer to see guidance on how to handle someone worshiping God X who tries to participate in rituals or recover rune magic in a temple to God Y, which admits to more complexities and choices than "Elmal is a subcult of Yelmalio, so you can do it." Glorantha is full of these kinds of cases and the answers depend heavily on the story you're all telling in the setting. Allowing a Humakti to recover magic in a temple to Yanafal Tarnils could be a minor RP point in one campaign, a huge clue in a second campaign, and the trigger for a complete disaster in a third. Trying to manage these choices on the design end of things is the opposite of what Glorantha should be about. Glorantha isn't about information, it's about stories.

# ? Sep 25, 2023 18:34

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

Narsham posted:

. Allowing a Humakti to recover magic in a temple to Yanafal Tarnils could be a minor RP point in one campaign, a huge clue in a second campaign, and the trigger for a complete disaster in a third. Trying to manage these choices on the design end of things is the opposite of what Glorantha should be about. Glorantha isn't about information, it's about stories.

To my mind, artificial ambiguity does the opposite; it rules out all those potentially interesting stories.

Maybe the PC�s experience e supposed to be unusual, demonstrating something unique about them. Maybe it is something unusual to the shrine, which is in fact not what it.claims to be. And maybe the rules on what works changed last Death day, and the PC is just one of the first to find out.

All of which require a status quo from which to deviate in order for the story to make sense.

You can�t have a murder mystery if everyone perpetually exists is some kind of unobserved quantum mixture of dead and alive.

I have to admit, I don�t get the perspective of someone who thinks otherwise. Even creating a PC character means creating someone who is not, under normal circumstances, going to exist in canonical Glorantha. Does that mean that you need to not have population figures given in order to feel you have permission to do that?

# ? Sep 25, 2023 22:07

White Coke: May 29, 2015

Magnusth posted:

Seems like a fairly reasonable distinction to make. Whether or it they made it at dawn, it is how Elmal is portrayed in e.g. the guide.

I was reading through the section in the guide on the pantheons and something that stuck out to me was that Yelm's runes were Fire x2, Mastery, & Stasis when he usually has Fire x2, Fertility, & Death. It got me thinking about what runes would suit a god best, given how part of our discussion has hinged on whether Elmal needs Fire instead of Light based on his myths. If Elmal is the friendly sun shouldn't he have Fertility too? Him not having Death makes sense if he's the part of the sun that didn't die but Fire by itself doesn't seem to suit the beneficial aspect of the sun he embodies. But also why does he have Truth? Truth doesn't seem like it fits, but that might just be me thinking of maladjusted antisocial weirdoes like Humakt, Dayzatar, Yelmalio, and Lankhor Mhy. Is it supposed to represent his role as a god of justice? Those other Truth deities all seem to be authorities unto themselves for the most part whereas Elmal's justice would be Orlanth's. If Elmal is more just than Orlanth it calls Orlanth's fitness to rule into question and by extension Elmal's justness since he's letting an unjust tyrant stay in power.

I also wondered if it would be fitting for Yelmalio to have the Mastery rune. One of the functions of the Mastery rune is political authority which is an important feature of Lightfore gods. Antirius was worshipped alongside Yelm by Dara Happan emperors into the Second Age, at least until when the EWF and Carmanians got involved, and Kargzant and Antirius were the patron deities of competing groups fighting for control of Peloria in the Grey Age and early First Age who claimed to be the heirs of Yelm's empire so political authority is derived from worship of them. It would also provide a clear reason why Yelmalio worshippers gave up Heat magic and reflect how they went from being politically subordinate to Orlanth to sovereign, neutral peers. Elmal is left in charge when Orlanth is away but his authority comes from being Orlanth's deputy. Yelmalio inherited his authority from Yelm but became a sovereign in his own right.

Magnusth posted:

I have nothing against "Elmal and Yelmalio are connected" or "Elmal and Yelmalio may have some degree of shared nature," I am against it being established as absolute truth that Elmal is just a different mask of Yelmalio, and especially that this is an obvious in universe truth that everyone accepts.

Sure it can. Elmal having lightfore connections is fine?

Yelm is the sun disk, Elmal is all the good friendly parts; mythologically, he pulls or rides the sun disk itself.

I've been thinking about this. The Lightfore deities are one of the portions of Yelm that remained on the surface after he died, and represent the light of the sun and an attempt to continue Yelm's rule on the surface despite diminished capacity to do so. Elmal fulfilled a similar role but unlike them he wasn't weakened enough to lose his Heat. Instead he swore fealty to Orlanth thereby ceding his claim to rule the world as a son of Yelm. Could it be that he's actually a composite of multiple portions of Yelm amalgamated into a single god who fulfills some of the sun's functions, the ones Orlanth found useful? Lightfore+ in other words since the distinctions between and specific functions of the constituent parts don't matter as much to Orlanthi as they would to Dara Happans. It would explain why Elmali started to incorporate worship of Yelm before Monrogh's revelation since they'd come to the conclusion, through contact with Pelorians and Lunar missionaries, that they were just worshipping an inferior manifestation of Yelm which is why, for example, they couldn't use Sunspear on their own.

There's also the question of whether Elmal goes to the Underworld at night because of his role of pulling or riding the sun disk despite the fact that he didn't die. Does he become Lightfore at night or is he some other planetary body that's also only visible at night? Some of the Lightfore gods did die but they left the Underworld before Yelm. Yelmalio though seems to have endured throughout the entire Age of Darkness like Elmal.

Narsham posted:

"After the Dawn" is radically distinct from "early in the Third Age" in my mind and my understanding of Glorantha is that not everyone accepts Elmal is Yelmalio even in the Third Age, but this is all nitpicking.

This isn't precisely "nobody has any gods or rituals left" Dawn era, because if you want to get that granular, "I Fought, We Won" is a complete breakdown of society even past the level of the family. But the POINT of it is that everyone is alone and everyone is together. But that doesn't matter, because also nobody has very good records from back then and there's no way to know whether Elmal as understood in a specific part of Dragon Pass early in the Third Age bears much resemblance to Elmal immediately after the Dawn, or to Elmal during the Darknesses. Separate son of Yelm, or total miscommunication?

In the early Third Age the Heortlings that settled Dragon Pass would have still been dealing with the consequences of the Dragonkill War and repudiation of the Empire of Wyrm Friends's draconic revelations, as well as being subject to the authority of the Only Old One and subsequently Belintar who meddled in the religion of their Orlanthi subjects to secure their own power. Tharkantus, the Second Age Yelmalio, became associated with the EWF not to mention that the Solar religions of Peloria also had had draconic reforms so there was a sharp religious reaction against solar influences in general and Orlanth worshippers in particular would want to remove anything that might threaten their rule within Orlanthi society so they'd want to assert the submission of the sun to Orlanth and forgetting (or "forgetting") would aid that.

radmonger posted:

To my mind, artificial ambiguity does the opposite; it rules out all those potentially interesting stories.

[...]

All of which require a status quo from which to deviate in order for the story to make sense.

You can�t have a murder mystery if everyone perpetually exists is some kind of unobserved quantum mixture of dead and alive.

I have to admit, I don�t get the perspective of someone who thinks otherwise. Even creating a PC character means creating someone who is not, under normal circumstances, going to exist in canonical Glorantha. Does that mean that you need to not have population figures given in order to feel you have permission to do that?

Clarity and physical space are both limiting factors to consider too. If the authors set out to present all the options and ambiguities to the players they're doomed to failure. In every roleplaying game there's the explicit or implicit understanding that people will change whatever they want whether it's the lore or the rules. As it says in the main Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha rulebook:

Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha posted:

Glorantha is a world of colossal proportions and depth, yet it has plenty of room for new ideas. If the gamemaster wishes to put orcs on some island in Glorantha or invent a new cult for a city, they should feel free. Everyone�s Glorantha will vary, and should vary to match every individual group�s play style.

But as you said there needs to be something for one's own Glorantha to vary from. Not everyone is going to like what's presented as "correct" but that's how things go. If you present five different possibilities as being equally plausible someone's going to ask about six through ten.

radmonger posted:

As you see in King of Dragon Pass, most Elmali are individuals within majority-Orlanthi clans. There are only one or two majority-Elmali clans. You play such a clan in Six Ages, but there they are one clan amongst many.

Good point. I had been thinking in terms of clans, not individuals. Elmal is known as the Loyal Thane, but as I found reading the Prosopaedia Heler the rain god is also known for their strong loyalty to Orlanth to the point where comparing someone's loyalty to Heler is high praise. It's interesting how the primary Fire and Water gods in the Storm pantheon are set up as examples who know their place and don't challenge Orlanth's rule. I can see why people who worshipped Elmal because he represented the element they have an affinity for would be resentful that their political ambitions would be limited because of who they are called to worship. According to King of Dragon Pass elevating Elmal above the other gods is next to blasphemy for many Orlanthi. At least by worshipping Yelmalio they wouldn't have society telling them to stay in their lane and know their place.

# ? Oct 1, 2023 06:45

wiegieman: Apr 22, 2010; Royalty is a continuous cutting motion

White Coke posted:

Good point. I had been thinking in terms of clans, not individuals. Elmal is known as the Loyal Thane, but as I found reading the Prosopaedia Heler the rain god is also known for their strong loyalty to Orlanth to the point where comparing someone's loyalty to Heler is high praise. It's interesting how the primary Fire and Water gods in the Storm pantheon are set up as examples who know their place and don't challenge Orlanth's rule. I can see why people who worshipped Elmal because he represented the element they have an affinity for would be resentful that their political ambitions would be limited because of who they are called to worship. According to King of Dragon Pass elevating Elmal above the other gods is next to blasphemy for many Orlanthi. At least by worshipping Yelmalio they wouldn't have society telling them to stay in their lane and know their place.

This is basically the deal with the Sun County templars in Sartar. They were a group of Elmali who had had grown strong and independent and desired their own land out from under the rule of the cult of Orlanth, and prince Tarkalor (the ruler of Sartar at the time) saw an opportunity to avert a possible civil war and set up a counterbalance to existing religious authority that would also provide him a ready mercenary force -- remember, as the crossroads between the Holy Country and Tarsh and Prax, Sartar is a wealthy trade kingdom. So Monrogh Lantern quested and found Yelmalio, and Tarkalor told him he could have the land if he could take it (which he did, because he had a large and motivated force of initiate level warriors.)

Fast forward 100 years with the Lunars moving into Sartar and the Yelmalions outnumbering the Elmali 3 to 1 (per S:KoH), and their loyalty uncertain, and that doesn't seem as smart. Some of the Elmali get along with the Sun Domers, some of them hate their guts for fighting over the same holy places, etc.

By canon, the Yelmalions end up turning on the Lunars at the siege of Whitewall -- the Crimson Bat is too much for them to stomach, and it's not really a betrayal if you're being paid huge amounts of Esrolian money to fight obvious chaos worshipers, is it?

# ? Oct 2, 2023 01:14

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

They should make a Heroquest Glorantha. Like they did Warhammer Quest.

# ? Oct 2, 2023 04:03

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

wiegieman posted:

By canon, the Yelmalions end up turning on the Lunars at the siege of Whitewall -- the Crimson Bat is too much for them to stomach, and it's not really a betrayal if you're being paid huge amounts of Esrolian money to fight obvious chaos worshipers, is it?

This seems to be a trend, though. They have turned on the empires they helped promote two times before. Their motivation to do so seems at least in part moral or spiritual, though it's quite an outrage when it happens.

# ? Oct 2, 2023 06:40

Nanomashoes: Aug 18, 2012

If you want to have cool anti-imperialists just use the Zaranastangi.

# ? Oct 2, 2023 17:40

NewMars: Mar 10, 2013

Hey people, there's two cool new Heroquest games going on, both on the same server.

First is The Liberation of Prax! Ride free as the animal nomads and bring back the green age. In our way there is every enemy under the sun, from the Lunars to the fact that we have no idea how to do this. But we must, for the good of all! This is for you people who like smashing chaos, riding really tall llamas and hating horses.

Second is Six Ages in Dara Happa. Yelm is Dead! The Imperial sun falls from the sky and his many children fight to see who the true successor shall be. But finding that out is only the first part. To restore the sun to the sky, you will have to discover and negate the errors that have crept into the empire since his loss. Hatred, Cruelty and Fear are the aspects of Dara Happa everyone outside it sees. But they are the grime that must be cleaned away for the purity of the sun to again shine.

Enter Here if you wish to join as a player or a spectator.

# ? Oct 5, 2023 12:03

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# ? Apr 30, 2024 16:45

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

None other than Jeff Richards went on the Godlearners podcast: https://godlearners.com/episode-27-the-cults-of-runequest/ and he does weigh in on Elmal/Yelmalio! Unsurprisingly (but IMO disappointingly) he takes the "Elmal was always Yelmalio, I knew Greg so nyeh nyah" approach and claims that no RQ supplement ever had fire powers or spells for Elmalian initiates.

# ? Oct 9, 2023 12:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Glorantha gaming: Heroquests and Cows

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