Glorantha gaming: Heroquests and Cows

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Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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New to the setting, and some questions I find kinda hard to answer:

- Do Dragonnewts remember all their past lives in detail? If so, aren't they more or less impossible to play, being immortal sages with good recall?

- Do 'regular spells' below the level of Heroquesting exist? I only have experience with Glorantha from King of Dragon Pass, and that kind of implies that warriors emit some sort of magic when attacking, but it seems more like a group phenomenon. Can I cast a spell to make light, get magic armor or gank someone like in mainstream fantasy settings? Or is it more a matter of completing a hero quest and then getting a magic benefit for a while?

- I guess what I'm getting at is, how do you run this as an RPG? I'm sort of leery of Runequest and 13th Age, and wouldn't buy either without a strong recommendation. I like Shadow of the Demon Lord which seems portable, but I don't know how to do magic then.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2021 09:13

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 04:18

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Where can I find a primer on the cosmological backstory stuff you're discussing? Yelm is only tangentially mentioned in the stuff I got.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2021 15:27

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Sounds like my jam, thanks!

# ¿ Oct 4, 2021 08:36

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Going to start a campaign in Glorantha this year! Bought Runequest in Glorantha and I'm super stoked, but I literally have no experience with the world apart from KoDP (and a little SA-RLTW). So, questions:

1: Where would a good starting/introductory point be for a campaign? I'm more or less decided on central Genertela, because it's what I feel I "know" fro KoDP - although KoDP also has me getting a feel for Yelmites.

2. What are good themes to explore, and how would I explore the ones my group have decided on? These are "swords and sandals" (my players love Conan the Barbarian and thinks Runequest is "a bit like that"), humor (that's their request as well), and I for my part would like to explore the powerful mythological aspect of being able to participate in God-time and affect the 'big story' of the deities with consequences on earth.

3. What's a good primer on recent history? A lot of the stuff I've picked up seems to happen before the timeline of Runequest.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2022 09:17

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Thanks a lot, you own!

What is the sourcebook you refer to?

# ¿ Mar 3, 2022 09:51

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Nanomashoes posted:

3)Honestly the official webcomic Prince of Sartar sets up most of the recent events and major players, unfinished as it is. Otherwise it sounds like the Sourcebook is what you want.

I don't know what I expected, but this is trippy as gently caress.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2022 11:49

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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So, let me see if I got this right. I would probably like for my group to originate around Dragon Pass somewhere, like Sartar. This means the recent history goes something like:

War has been going on for decades, with the ascended King Sartar and Tarsh throwing down against the Lunar Empire, killing their king in the battle of Karnge Farm, though this eventually also destroys Tarsh in 1555. Sartar itself falls and is invaded in 1602. Something called the Holy Country eventually dissolves, with their god-king not reconstituting himself as he was apparently supposed to, in 1616. The Lunar empire takes Heortland in 1620, a year before the setting itself takes place.

The actual ruler is some Lunarite governor shithead named Fazzyr or Fazzur, but what form of self-governance is allowed to the tribes of former Sartar and Tarsh? Will everything be infused with a sensation of ongoing resistance and insurgency, or are people doing okay with being forced back into reservations of sorts? It seems like there are a lot of armed factions and some of them are crazy enough to stand up to the Lunars still.

Jenx posted:

Thanks, that was part of the aim of it.

You made it!? Extremely well done, and bringing the mythology alive for newbies like me. Big thumbs up!

# ¿ Mar 3, 2022 16:41

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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That's in 1626? My guide to Glorantha has a historic picture of the defeated members of Starbrow's rebellion submitting to Fazzur, but I guess it picks up again later then..

The Pharaoh was Belintar!? Crazy poo poo :aaa:

E: Ah never mind, the Runequest rulebook starts later than the Guide and details Starbrow's eventual success.

Tias fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Mar 3, 2022

# ¿ Mar 3, 2022 17:39

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Discussion in my group: Would it be better to start a campaign with the Runequest Glorantha starter set, or just buy the rulebook and expand from there? Does the starter set have the option of making a character from scratch that you can take on a longer campaign, or do you have to select from prefabs?

# ¿ Mar 8, 2022 10:59

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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I made a lil' CYOA, let's have fun:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4024046

# ¿ Feb 13, 2023 11:20

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Just chiming in to say the Prosopaedia is great, and I'm really looking forward to reading the cult books. The art is amazing since they got Katrin Dirim on board!

# ¿ Aug 18, 2023 14:02

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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Narsham posted:

One thing I didn't like was identifying Gbaji explicitly as Nysalor and not Arkat. That's not wrong, exactly, but it's disappointing to think that it's right. Something tricky happened on the Heroplane when those two confronted each other and it's not clear whether the survivor of the confrontation was even the same being.

Except that the EWF masterminds understood they were farming the end game content while oriented improperly within Time, meaning they were actually disempowering themselves like complete dopes.

You really have to admire the number of people in Glorantha who figured out creative ways to endanger the world. That's part of what makes it such a good adventuring setting.

"Something tricky" explains more or less every interaction Arkat ever had with anything.

Jeff's been rather straightforward about this being a biased source, and "today" (1425-ish) Orlanthi would most often remember Gbaji as Nysalor. It's not meant to be a restricting canon document, as much as something that will be accessible to all the new players in Dragon Pass.

# ¿ Aug 19, 2023 08:29

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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The canon rulebooks closed it a while ago, explaning that some guy quested to the disparate tribes with proof that Elmal was always Yelmalio. There's a nod to the Elmal grogs somewhere too, saying you can be part of one of the few groups who claim he is only Elmal.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2023 08:09

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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I will dissent and say I think Yelmalio is both cool and interesting. The only path to Dayzatar, he who owns Truth? Rule! Keeper of the truth a rekindling, the truth so hard to 'get' without walking it that many of his followers become grade-A assholes? Respectable. Restoring the truth of being the Loyal Thane, but also having mercenary followers who betray the three empires they've historically served to end the civil war between Orlanthi and Lunar (Y)Elmalions? Owns.

reignonyourparade posted:

If nothing else I feel like his "it's definitely 100% the yelmalions that are right" really goes against the spirit of the setting

(personally In My Glorantha Yelmalio/Elmal is Ernalda's son with Yelm and, in proper kid-of-divorced-parents fashion, is Yelmalio when Ernalda and Orlanth say he can't have a new xbox so he's trying to see if Yelm will give him one and Elmal when Yelm says he can't have a sleepover and he's trying to see if Ernalda and Orlanth will let him. Only the Esrolians openly describe it that way though, and I certainly wouldn't go out and say "this is how the setting should definitively be".)

Again, I feel like this is done kinda as an in-game point at well, to make sure there's some continuity (we are also told that the Elmal and Yelmalio cults are culturally different), but it's for sure also Jeff not liking him.

Narsham posted:

Yelmalio does have self-resurrection, so that�s something.

Yet another way of considering the situation: the Hill of Gold heroquest is central and important to multiple pantheons, and a locus for questers. When Yelmalio went there, Zorak Zoran bushwacked him and took his fire powers, and bad things happened to him in multiple other encounters, but the world itself would not let him die. When Elmal went there, he fought off most of those encounters and didn�t die or lose his fire powers.

Ormi explained it to me like this:

These secrets are those of the Young God, but unlike the other Young Gods (say, Orlanth, or Yelm), Yelmalio does not overthrow the Old and take their place, but continues upon the path. And for this, he reaches Youth again, and becomes renewed, completing the circuit. Thus... if one ever truly accomplishes the feat of the Hill of Gold, surviving the entire time no matter the onslaught, one becomes physically immortal and incorruptible.

Which is a lot to take in, but very cool.

E: \/ I just don't see it. Stuff changes every edition, and in reality there's just more versions of (Y)Elmal(io) out there than there was before. Different things to different tribes, all at the same time. We can do it like we want to.

Tias fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Sep 1, 2023

# ¿ Sep 1, 2023 07:19

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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NewMars posted:

You're confusing Yelm with Dayzatar in the first bit there. Dayzatar is the high sun beyond the sky and his adherents are mystics who retire to towers to stare at the sun all day. Yelm worship is done by nobles in cities, a surprisingly high amount of the people in Dara Happa: 4% of the overall population. To worship him you must be a full Citizen of an imperial city, and he grants the power of nobility, command, rule and related magics. Having a yelm initiate involved in any project will make it go much smoother, even if, (especially if) they don't actually do anything. Such is the magic of Yelm.

I believe this is one form for Yelm, and definitely also the case in the Lunar Empire, where the Red Emperor is one of the high priests of Yelm! However, a lot of Pentans and Grazelanders also worship him, even if not high on the totem pole. He is the archetype for men in many solar societies, like how Orlanth (or at least Storm gods) are the model for Sartarite men.

E: I consulted the scrolls. Looking at Yu-Kargzant, the Sun Horse, he of course is Yelm, but remains a completely different cult from Imperial Yelm, with different strictures, hiearchies, and even different sub-cults and associated cults! And with 50% of Grazers initiated with one or more of his powerful cults, and no real need to maintain temple infrastructure, you can see why they're such a pain in the neck to the settled societies.

Tias fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Sep 5, 2023

# ¿ Sep 5, 2023 06:36

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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The (otherwise pretty good) Runequest Glorantha.. actually doesn't. However, Jonstown Compendium (the Chaosium-supported fan supplement publisher) has several books with system proposals, some of which are written by folks who worked on the corebook itself. There are several interesting ones, but my method is most informed by the ones popping up in Austin Conrads Six Seasons in Sartar.

# ¿ Sep 5, 2023 09:33

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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You may take the heroquesting rules from my empty hand when you are able. The hand is not there. now your kidneys are gone

# ¿ Sep 5, 2023 10:13

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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I feel that wanting to nail this question and its answer down is something that only grognards want to do (and lord, thou madest grognards, of which I am the first!)

However, this is probably a question of semantics. Most recent editions of Glorantha, including the three new cult books, are emphatic in stating that when using names like Yelm, Orlanth, Ernalda, Eurmal etc., they are using the names penned down in the god learner monomyth, that tried to liken all similar gods and give them one name - and that, in practice, all languages and even different groups within the same language area, use different names for the same god.

While Monrogh managed to shed mythic (and so actual) light on the fact that Elmal and Yelmalio were one and the same, that does not mean it was not already the case.

Tias fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Sep 15, 2023

# ¿ Sep 15, 2023 06:54

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Magnusth posted:

Yeah, but this is both a coward's way, and a big difference from how glorantha used to do things. Like, "actually the god learners are right in the ways that matter" just makes glorantha worse. The idea that there is a single, definate truth, a pair of myths that are unquestionably true outside of your religious experience of them, is violence to the metaphysical foundations of glorantha. There may be general truths and relationships between powers, but a single true perspective or set of events.

I don't disagree, though, as NewMars says, it is very clearly an off-game blurb meant to explain why they haven't put in a bunch of extra names for each god, not an authoritative argument - I'm pretty sure the current designers did not think the God Learners got it right, considering they point out how bad they hosed up in several places.

quote:

Back to storm tribe, Elmal's initiates do use the light rune, but there are abilities listed with it which are clearly about fire and heat - resist frost, rekindle hearth fire, and blazing spear. The write-up does focus on his brightness over his heat, but there are also several mentions of his heat, and in the narrative of guards the stead, he burns things away, his tears are flaming, etc. He is also the fertile sun, which is another sun and heat thing. He is very clearly not the light without heat that Yelmalio is, the bright light of the lightfore which shines without heat but still illuminates the dark.

If you want to keep Elmal as a separate deity, just give him those powers and say they are gifted from associate cults that jive better with his specific mythology.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2023 06:51

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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White Coke posted:

That'd let people play the kind of Elmali character they want, with fire spears and arrows, but it wouldn't solve the issue for those who want Elmal to be the sun and not Lightfore. It isn't enough to say that they're different beings, Elmal needs to have different (and de facto better since Light is a component of Fire) runes and be a different (and more important) planetary body.

I can't find enough argument to support that Elmal was the sun, but honestly, everyones Glorantha WILL vary. If it suits the players better that he is the steadfast thane and also the sun itself, roll with it.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2023 17:36

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Nanomashoes posted:

Six Ages 1 has Elmal being the sun as rather core to its plot.

A sun. Sorry for being imprecise, I meant that if folks are saying Elmal was the actual Yelm/Arraz-core of the light itself.. And it is not completely clear if the Six Ages 1 tribe are not actually worshipping Dayzatar or Yelmalio, and we're just having him referred to as Elmal.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2023 19:33

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Magnusth posted:

Elmal is the Sun God, but no one claims, to my knowledge, that he is the sun disk, that's Yelm. Most myths describe Elmal carrying or guarding the Sun; the guide mentions him as 'the sun stallion' and as a horse carrying the sun on his back.

Okay, but... this is really, actually, fully, just complete nonsense. Every single mention of Elmal in all the main sources call him the sun or a Sun God. He's mentioned several times in the Guide, always as 'the sun' or 'the sun stallion' or 'the sun god.' In Storm Tribe, he's consistently called the Sun god, he's always associated with the dawn, Book of Heortling mythology calls him the sun, and Greg's famous essay on his introduction makes it clear that he is "the sun of life," the friendly sun. That's what he's always called. That's really not in question.

I know when I have been outgrog'd, my bad. I can't afford the guide, but I got to BoHM which cleared it up.

E: in other news, I may be playing my first Yelmalion ever! What, in you guys opinion, would such an initiate act like?

I am of course taking a geas, but would also lift their Truth and Sky runes. Any other ideas?

Tias fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Sep 20, 2023

# ¿ Sep 20, 2023 08:27

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Yeah, the corrupt patriarchal guys are the ones who live in the Prax dome, right?

radmonger posted:

If your PC comes from the Sun Dome branch of the cult, then he was probably born on temple lands, initiated direct to Yelmalio, and trained to fight on foot as part of a military unit in defence of his farmlands.

If he.come from the Elmali branch, he was probably brought up in a regular Orlanthi clan, and initiated as an adult into the clan. There he met Elmal at Orlath�s stead, and, perhaps due to a family tradition, connected with him. He would likely be, or have aspirations to be, part of the clan warrior aristocracy, and fight as a thane from horseback. The clan elders advised him the best way to follow his calling was to sign up with the Sun Domers for a term of mercenary service. This may well have been as a scout, messenger or auxiliary, instead of a hoplite. Now that term is over, and they are looking to make a reputation for themselves.

The latter is probably a lot more playable by default in a typical campaign. The first really needs a specific hook to explain why they are here, and what they hope they gain.

This owns, thank you!

# ¿ Sep 20, 2023 17:03

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ZeroCount posted:

Yelmalio/Antirius is *also* Lightfore but unlike Elmal, who was the patron god of Nivorah and married to the Golden City's tutelary goddess before Nivorah fell, Yelmalio is the patron god of some losers in the old empire who the Hyalorings hate, so 'Little Yelm' shows up occasionally in their myths as a symbol of slavery, antiquated ways and impotence and his main role is to get owned because he's an enemy god in someone else's mythology.

Does this mean someone at least thought Elmal and Yelmalio were different? I had no idea Elmal ruled in Nivorah, but I never got far in Six Ages, so perhaps I'll pick it up again.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2023 06:52

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Narsham posted:

Strength, much less "my god can beat up your god," is only important within a narrow subfield of faiths in Glorantha. The idea that Yelmalio can defeat Elmal in battle is weird anyway, given that the Yelmalians are trying to convince the Elmali that the god they worship IS Yelmalio. As for granted powers, multiple cults in the system grant specific powers or rune magics unique to them that are very effective in combat, but despite being important deities and especially significant to adventuring bands, they are generally not as important as other deities. Humakt is vitally important but worshiped by a tiny number of people, while deities like Barntar or Ernalda are going to have a lot more worshipers and are objectively "powerful" culturally even if they aren't granting reusable access to Sever Spirit, or combat-related oaths, or other such goodies.

The earth cults are some of the most powerful within most Gloranthan cultures, and they are generally not that interested in combat to begin with.

Well, there's one or two sources painting Humakt as a Chaos deity because death opened the wound in Glorantha that allowed Chaos in. Almost certainly, that's both unfair and accurate; Chaos got in partly because of Death, but that doesn't mean Humakt is a massive traitor to the universe, it's a matter of consequences.

I suppose. However, direct confrontation between deities in debate has been a thing in the RL world as well. While christianizing Scandinavia, missionaries had to convince the heathens living there that A) Jesus could best Thor in a fight and B) Jesus was a strong, mail-wearing tribal lord, not unlike the visage of Odin.

Also, if Humakt is a chaos-god by his actions, Eurmal and Orlanth are too.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2023 06:44

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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What temples are those?

# ¿ Sep 22, 2023 10:24

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Thanks!

Am trying to homebrew a Elmal cult writeup while I wait for the actual one, is there somewhere in the prior editions I could find a good one to convert?

# ¿ Sep 22, 2023 12:45

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Exactly! Thanks a lot.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2023 16:23

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White Coke posted:

I have a question about Daga. He's an Orlanthi god but he seems to be regarded as an enemy god or is used by Orlanth to punish people. His father is Yelm or some other Solar god and while his mother Molanni is associated with Entekos who is a Dara Happan god there doesn't seem to be any analogue for him in the Dara Happan pantheon even as a foe like how Orlanth is Rebellus Terminus. What I'm wondering is if any cultures have deliberately incorporated another culture's enemy god into their pantheon in order to strengthen it, or altered the cult of one of their gods to incorporate elements of a foreign culture where their god is hostile? This seems like the sort of thing the Lunars and Nysaloreans before them might have done. The Lunars did make Yara Aranis to be an enemy of the Pentans but she was born of a goddess they feared and later apotheosized. Maybe the Yelm cult don't want to admit his bastard?

And depending on who you ask it might also have died but came back to life before the sun did with the sun possibly having only come back after the Dawn. Also it might not have initially followed the same path the sun does but zipped around, and there might have been multiple Lightfores until one was subordinated to another and it might have lost some of its brightness and power after the real sun came back, or after the Sunstop or some other magical experiment.

Daga is kept in a jar at Orlanths bedside, and so having him around to interact with in the god-time is probably hard. The 'problem' I see with your contention is that no god is inherently good or bad (though we humans probably would agree that Daga, a god of famine and drought, is bad for us), and some cultures have a god as enemy while others have the same god as an ally or even supreme king. The war of many suns that pop up routinely in here is a good example. The gods are not necessarily adopted because they are someone's enemy, but because your own circumstances have changed.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2023 07:57

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wiegieman posted:

By canon, the Yelmalions end up turning on the Lunars at the siege of Whitewall -- the Crimson Bat is too much for them to stomach, and it's not really a betrayal if you're being paid huge amounts of Esrolian money to fight obvious chaos worshipers, is it?

This seems to be a trend, though. They have turned on the empires they helped promote two times before. Their motivation to do so seems at least in part moral or spiritual, though it's quite an outrage when it happens.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2023 06:40

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None other than Jeff Richards went on the Godlearners podcast: https://godlearners.com/episode-27-the-cults-of-runequest/ and he does weigh in on Elmal/Yelmalio! Unsurprisingly (but IMO disappointingly) he takes the "Elmal was always Yelmalio, I knew Greg so nyeh nyah" approach and claims that no RQ supplement ever had fire powers or spells for Elmalian initiates.

# ¿ Oct 9, 2023 12:31

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I mean, the people who suddenly lost their staple crops and local goddesses (who, we must remember, straight up made the crops grow) because the God Learners hosed around might not be willing to accept it either.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2023 07:03

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 04:18

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Haven't had time to go through Mythology yet, but it appears the take is that, upon entering a gods mythological area in the god-time, there are various "paths" or "exits" (compare to heroquest stations in earlier editions I guess) that take you to various points in god-time, some of which the god is alive and some is dead if it died in history. This seems like it would also make it possible to encounter various incarnations or gods at the time where they were relevant to your culture, but that's just me guessing.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2023 06:44

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