Glorantha gaming: Heroquests and Cows

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Glorantha gaming: Heroquests and Cows

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

White Coke posted:

Elmal being the Orlanthi sun god does then raise the question of what the Lightbringer Quest was for, was it just to get Yelm to give up some of his power to make Elmal strong enough to fill in his father's role as the sun? If so it doesn't seem like he's making amends for his wrongs or compromising since he's giving his subordinate more power which means making himself more powerful. I've read a bit about the theory that the Lightbringer Quest was originally the Lifebringer Quest intended to resurrect Ernalda but that it supposedly got hijacked to bring back Yelm or something.

Concider the end of Elmal Guards the Stead as told in Storm Tribe and Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, where orlanth brings a torch which revitalizes Elmal. I seem to remember there's also a version with a horse he rides instead, but i can't find it. I think it's reasonable to concider Elmal a part of the sun which survived and joined orlanth, and then reunited with yelm, probably as a torch-bearer or as a thane of Orlanth which accompanies him. HQvoices also includes the line "Elmal follows his path, unwilling to break it" which i think fits.

# ¿ Sep 2, 2023 14:22

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 19:27

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

Tias posted:

I feel that wanting to nail this question and its answer down is something that only grognards want to do (and lord, thou madest grognards, of which I am the first!)

However, this is probably a question of semantics. Most recent editions of Glorantha, including the three new cult books, are emphatic in stating that when using names like Yelm, Orlanth, Ernalda, Eurmal etc., they are using the names penned down in the god learner monomyth, that tried to liken all similar gods and give them one name - and that, in practice, all languages and even different groups within the same language area, use different names for the same god.

While Monrogh managed to shed mythic (and so actual) light on the fact that Elmal and Yelmalio were one and the same, that does not mean it was not already the case.

Yeah, but this is both a coward's way, and a big difference from how glorantha used to do things. Like, "actually the god learners are right in the ways that matter" just makes glorantha worse. The idea that there is a single, definate truth, a pair of myths that are unquestionably true outside of your religious experience of them, is violence to the metaphysical foundations of glorantha. There may be general truths and relationships between powers, but a single true perspective or set of events.

radmonger posted:

Alternatively, you can doubt the basic premise of theism. You can ask Yelmalio about Elmali cult secrets and he will know the answer; theists will say that is because he remembers being Elmal and doing what Elmal did. But maybe that information comes from some other source, like heroquesters telling him so? Thing is, that means literally talking to the gods gets you no useful information.

Except, of course, that a Yelmalion won't be able to do (and draw magic) from the myths of Elmal becoming orlanth's loyal thane, or the exchange of weapons, and of course, Yelmalio did not Defend The Stead. And elmal has no myths of losing his fire magic, his worshippers can sleep under red blankets, etc. Their cults and myths are different. There are elements that overlap, and they express some similar truths of the world, but they aren't the same.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2023 21:56

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

White Coke posted:

The Elmal-Is-Yelmalio explanation is that Yelmalio did Guard the Stead as part of his defense of the world during the Greater Darkness but not as Orlanth's subordinate, and that Elmal lost his heat powers while he Guarded The Stead.

These are bad explanations, because the myths are about different things. You can sort of shoehorn it in there, but myths, especially in glorantha, serve the explain the world, and Yelmalio's wandering, his defense of the world, and his trials at the hill of gold explain very different things than Elmal's myths of adoption, of loyalty to orlanth, and protection of the stead as Orlanth's thane. And, there's no indication in any of the versions of Defending the Stead that we have that Elmal would've lost his fire powers.

White Coke posted:

And even if Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods with different myths who provide different spells via different runes to their cults Yelmalio is the stronger god whose cult provides better benefits. Benefits which allowed Monrogh Lantern to convince Elmal worshippers to switch to Yelmalio, and allowed them to defeat the Kitori and other enemies of the Kingdom of Sartar. So if Elmal gets to keep his fire powers then the rules should reflect that Yelmalio and his cult is more powerful. But when I see discussions of Elmal vs Yelmalio the idea that Elmal is stronger and therefore better keeps popping up and it seems to me that the point isn't just to say that Elmal has to be different from Yelmalio but he always has to be better in a mechanical sense or it isn't right.

There's no reason for this to need to be the case. Monrogh could have converted Elmali because some of them did align more with Yelmalio in terms of runes and strengths, because it was politically convenient, or because they preferred some aspect of Yelmalio life, or because some element of Yelmalio's mythos resonated with them.
But also, there's no reason to suppose a direct relationship between 'power of deity' and 'size of cult'. There are a lot of powerful, primal deities with relatively small cults, and some deities whose cults are minor in some places but major elsewhere. (Heler's cult is not super important in dragon pass, but he's the main man's god in manira). Also some gods with relatively limited power who have large cults, like herd mothers and animal-related gods.

Fundamentally, though, there's another thing here: While Yelmalio's power is what it is, the power of his cult and their magic is as much based on their lore, their rituals, their technique and their infrastructure. It's reasonable to say that if the Yelmalio cult is better, it's because it has a solid foundation of myths and lore provided by a visionary heroquester, have bigger temples where they can do more sacrifice and magic, etc.
Lastly, i've never seen anyone complain that Elmal's cult must be better than Yelmalio - in fact, i've often seen people claim that Yelmalio's cult writeup is lackluster - but rather that it should have access to fire magic because Elmali have always been portrayed that way, and unlike Yelmalio, there isn't a tradition of not having lost their fire magic or whatever.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2023 00:36

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

Hey, first, sorry if I came off a little aggressive. Elmal is dear to my heart and I'm used to fighting old grognards about it, so apologies if I came out swinging.

White Coke posted:

If Elmal is a less complete understanding of Yelmalio then those myths can be seen as attempts to explain Yelmalio from an Orlanthi perspective that's concerned with framing his actions in a way that supports Orlanth's sovereignty instead of providing one where Yelmalio is neutral or opposed to Orlanth's rule. One of the things that I like about Yelmalio is that he's an inter-cultural god who bridges Storm and Solar cultures in a way that Elmal and Antirius don't so his myths about aiding various cultures in the Greater Darkness are more open to interpretation.

Remember, myths aren't just things you learn, they're things you do, things which are manifest around you in the social and physical world. Sometimes, it makes sense that a myth may be a leaser understanding of another, if it represents a less complete understanding and explanation of the world around you, but Elmal and Yelmalio represent very different things.

Elmal and his myths are, on a social level, about the integration of the hyalorings in orlanthi society, about why they use horses and what role they play, about the ways thanes should interact with leaders, and the nessecity and acceptance of warriors who protect the home and stead while all the orlanth initiates are out on bold adventures. On a cosmic level, Elmal represents the ability of orlanth to make friends with the worthy no matter their family, and the sun as a life giving, friendly force, which brings warmth and life. When an Elmali embodies the presence of Elmal though his rune spells, these are the truths he calls on and reinforce. When a heroquester becomes Elmal and defends the stead, he brings back these things (well, some of them, others need different myths).

But Yelmalio represents and explains different truths of the world. Socially, he represents a solar warrior ideal, but also a break from Yelm's direct control as a wandering adventurer. He also represents the preserverance of the solar culture despite civil wars, monsters, barbarians, etc. At the hill of gold, he represents a cosmic truth that the light perseveres in darkness, and a simple physical truth of the lightfore shining in even the darkeat night. He is the questing adventurer who stands up no matter what, who endures loss and pain and humiliation and still stands up for the sake of the world.

These are not greater and lesser versions of one thing, but fundamentally different things they explain and represent.

White Coke posted:

That's true, but that's true of everything in a fictional setting. You could just as well say that the creation of Elmal was a mistake in the first place and just retcon him away completely. The current canon though is that Monrogh Lantern proved that Elmal was Yelmalio by demonstrating greater powers via more complete myths.

To be clear, what I meant was simply that it doesn't have to be true that Yelmalio is more powerful because he was able to convert people. I'll comment on the mechanics and powers stuff a little further down.

White Coke posted:

Have they? I know that he's had fire magic in a lot of his rule sets, and I don't have access to older books but from what I've read from other people it sounds like in some previous rules he's had Light instead of the Fire/Sky rune, not just the current RQ:G. In RQ:G Elmal also has the Truth rune but in some systems he doesn't and instead has (I think) the Stasis or Movement rune yet people don't seem to be as fired up about him losing those, they want Elmal to have fire powers because they want their characters to have fire spells.

So, I went and looked this up. Storm tribe doesn't list Elmals runes, because HW makes different assumptions about how gods and runes work. His personal rune is called the sun rune, but doesn't match the "modern" sun rune, the circle with the dot. That rune is used in HW, but as far as I can tell, only as Yelm's personal rune.

Meanwhile, there the light rune does exist, but it is associated with both light and heat, in contrast to its modern use, where it is specifically associated with yelmalio's loss of heat.

Back to storm tribe, Elmal's initiates do use the light rune, but there are abilities listed with it which are clearly about fire and heat - resist frost, rekindle hearth fire, and blazing spear. The write-up does focus on his brightness over his heat, but there are also several mentions of his heat, and in the narrative of guards the stead, he burns things away, his tears are flaming, etc. He is also the fertile sun, which is another sun and heat thing. He is very clearly not the light without heat that Yelmalio is, the bright light of the lightfore which shines without heat but still illuminates the dark.

Now, I don't actually think Elmal needs super strong fire rune-magic, he is more bright than burning, but his worshippers have always been associated with flaming spears and arrows, so his cult should have access to those, and in modern terms he definitely has the fire/sky rune, not just the light rune.

As for just wanting Elmal to have fire, that seems a silly complaint. People want to play a cool, just, and steadfast defender with a burning spear, one of the more iconic images for a lot of people, and have been able to do so in most previous versions of the setting, but now can't, and get told that their favorite god is actually someone else, who many of them consider less interesting and has a completely different feel, aesthetic, and social role. Of course they're going to complain about losing fire in the service of making Elmal more like someone they don't like. We don't want fire magic to be better than Yelmalio, we want fire magic to be the cool defender with a burning spear we've always loved.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2023 10:22

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

White Coke posted:

If Elmal is supposed to be the sun then as I said previously I think it makes Orlanth and the Lightbringer's Quest less interesting and compelling since instead of bringing back his slain enemy and trying to work things out he's taking power from a defeated foe in order to make his own subordinate more useful in order shore up his own rule of the cosmos. It's exactly the sort of thing a proud Orlanthi would want to gloss over, just like a Yelmite is going to want to downplay Yelm's agreement to compromise, but however much they want to ignore it the world is split between Sky and Storm, and now Moon too and that's the way the gods made it.

Elmal is the Sun God, but no one claims, to my knowledge, that he is the sun disk, that's Yelm. Most myths describe Elmal carrying or guarding the Sun; the guide mentions him as 'the sun stallion' and as a horse carrying the sun on his back. Book of Heortling mythology describes the lightbringers quest and mentions Elmal 'riding his chariot again' after Orlanth returns. They all describe Orlanth going to the underworld and making peace with Yelm and agreeing to the compromise an bringing him back etc.

White Coke posted:

But is there any reason he shouldn't be stronger? I ask this because another common refrain I've encountered is that Elmal is better/stronger because he wasn't beat up like Yelmalio was at the Hill of Gold. It reminds me of Virgin vs. Chad memes. In fact that's another commonly raised point I've seen, Yelmalio the incel virgin vs. Elmal the happily married family man. So much of the discussion that I've seen hinges not just on how they're different but that Elmal is better both as a person and as a source of mechanical benefits. So I admit I'm suspicious of Elmal defenders as people who want to eat their cake and have it too, that they want Elmal to be quantifiably better as well as a wholly different entity. This might all just be in my head but that's where I'm coming from. Given how Monrogh's revelation is described it seems to me that the intention is that he proved Elmal is Yelmalio by demonstrating greater powers derived from a more complete understanding of who Elmal really was. And so I wonder then that if in compromise people would be willing to accept having Elmal given separate status but at the cost of his implied inferiority made explicit.

Honestly this is more about the culture of Yelmalions, who have traditionally been described as having a giant stick up their rear end, being misogynist pricks, having sexual prohibitions, etc. You know, being extremely hatable in general. He also happens to have really weak mechanics in RQ:Q, and i think most people - even ardent Elmalaboos like myself - think he should have something better. (Seriously, how does he not have an auto-ressurect spell? or any useful combat magic?) I don't think Yelmalio should be worse than Elmal mechanically, because i don't think any god should be a trap option, and as for which god could beat who in a fight, i... why would i possibly care?

White Coke posted:

I thought elves loved Yelmalio because his light allowed plants to grow without the risk of heat causing them to burn? And that he had some frost resistance powers gained from his fight with Inora on the Hill of Gold? Also I don't find "he's always been this way so he should always be this way" a compelling argument given how much the setting has changed, such as the creation of Elmal himself. If the setting can't be changed in any way that might make existing fans dissatisfied then I think it'd be a less interesting one. The Malkioni would still be heavily based on medieval Europe, the Orlanthi would be vikings, and those who want Kralorela to be something other than orientalist fantasy China are out of luck because some people like it the way it is.

Sure, but what is gained by flattening Elmal and Yelmalio, on insisting on them being one god? I know what's lost: a rich vein of Elmali history and mythology, a particular niche in Orlanthi society, a type of character many enjoy playing, a more complex relationship between the Orlanthi and sun worshippers, and more interesting variety among the clans and tribes. I do not see what is gained.

White Coke posted:

But on the other hand I do think that there's a desire to sweep Elmal under the rug in RQ:G which I think is a mistake because it alienates fans of Elmal while also eliminating some interesting potential storylines from the game. I think that you can still have all the original interpretations of Elmal's myths but that they become more interesting because now they can also be seen in a new light cast by Yelmalio's versions too. There are some devout Elmali who still worship him and don't just call Yelmalio Elmal, and I'd like to learn more about them and how they've coped with the revelation and subsequent changes.

According to Jeff, you are a wierdo pervert and cast out of the cult because the truth is so obvious and everyone knows it and you probably smell too.

White Coke posted:

I found this Greg Sez about Yelmalio and it's an interesting read because it talks about how Yelmalio has been known by different names in previous ages so it's up in the air as to whether the current Yelmalio is the same Yelmalio as has been previously worshipped. One section that addresses the question of why Elmali shifted to worshipping Yelmalio states:

so according to Greg Stafford the Elmali started worshipping Yelmalio because he was stronger than Elmal and not subservient to Orlanth.

I mean, all it says is that he was challenged to show a god stronger than Elmal and presented Yelmalio as the answer, and then proved it through military might. But, like... Monrogh being able to conqour poo poo doesn't make Yelmalio nessecarily stronger than Elmal, it just makes Monrogh a powerful hero. Note that that quote also specifically casts Yelmalio as not Elmal - a separate god, and people departed one for the other.

White Coke posted:

That'd let people play the kind of Elmali character they want, with fire spears and arrows, but it wouldn't solve the issue for those who want Elmal to be the sun and not Lightfore. It isn't enough to say that they're different beings, Elmal needs to have different (and de facto better since Light is a component of Fire) runes and be a different (and more important) planetary body.

I do just want to point out here, that the reason we want Elmal to be a sun god isn't because the sun is more important than the Lightfore, it's because he's always been the sun god and makes sense as the sun god, and most importantly because Elmal, as a whole, defines a very interesting and fun niche in Orlanthi society.
It's also a little funny to say that the people who want to worship the god defined by his loyalty to a superior just want their god to be more important.

Tias posted:

I can't find enough argument to support that Elmal was the sun, but honestly, everyones Glorantha WILL vary. If it suits the players better that he is the steadfast thane and also the sun itself, roll with it.

Okay, but... this is really, actually, fully, just complete nonsense. Every single mention of Elmal in all the main sources call him the sun or a Sun God. He's mentioned several times in the Guide, always as 'the sun' or 'the sun stallion' or 'the sun god.' In Storm Tribe, he's consistently called the Sun god, he's always associated with the dawn, Book of Heortling mythology calls him the sun, and Greg's famous essay on his introduction makes it clear that he is "the sun of life," the friendly sun. That's what he's always called. That's really not in question.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2023 21:13

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

quote:

So he's the sun god but he's not the sun itself and instead helps fulfill its functions and protect it? Isn't that similar to the role of Lightfore gods who represent the sun's light and serve as intermediaries?

The lightfore is a separate celestial body, which aahas a different function and role. That said, I don't mind Elmal having lightfore associations, of it isn't in the service of just turning him into Yelmalio. But Elmal is also very strongly associated with the sun as it rises at dawn.
That said, we were talking about the Lightbringers quest. Do you still think it's less interesting if Elmal bring a sun god is still entirely compatible with orlanth going on a quest to restore The Sun?

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The Orlanthi culture is awful too with human sacrifice, slavery, lynching, endemic raiding & warfare, and legalized murder. Not to mention its own strict gender roles even if they are more flexible than the Sky pantheon's.

Sure, I'm just saying, this is one of the reasons people consider Elmal to be the proverbial Chad compared to Yelmalio. That, and a lot of people consider Elmal guards the stead a much cooler myth than Yelmalio and the hill of gold.
Note also that this part - Yelmalio worshippers being extremely misogynistic conservative puritan assholes - is part of what makes people really frustrated when grogs go "oh actually, in modern times your favorite guys are all Yelmalions"

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And as for which god could beat which in a fight, the gods aren't all equal in their power. It goes to the conflict between Sky and Storm in God Time and the struggle between Storm and Moon in Solar Time. Elmal is the Loyal Thane because he's weaker than his father Yelm, who was killed by Orlanth which made Orlanth king of the world. Yelmalio lost his powers because he was beaten and robbed by various gods but nonetheless persevered. And if the hate-ability of different gods' worshipers' cultures is to be considered why not the relative power of the gods themselves?

I don't really see why I, or anyone else should care about space battle level rankings of gods.
But to take the question a little more seriously, you are right that the different gods have different strengths, at least to some degree, though remember that myths aren't static. Powerful heroquesters can and do affect the outcome of the myths. Famously, an individual Yelmalion can win the fight with Zorak Zoran and regain fire powers - for such a hero, it is not the case that Zorak Zoran is more powerful thab Yelmalio, for example.
There are no mythic reasons to believe Yelmalio is stronger than Elmal, however, and they are similar enough in stature and ranking - both mythically enduring and powerful warriors who aid mortals in the darkness, both important war gods of their people - that there's no obvious power differential, like you'd see with, say, Humakt and yinkin or something. There's no good reason one should be categorically or worse than another. One hero may be stronger than another, but these gods aren't easily comparable.

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If the only way to avoid having gods be trap options is to make them equally capable of winning a fight, then I don't see how that can be done without severe homogenization.

No one is claiming this? But also, "what magic you can draw from a cult as a worshipper" and " how strong the god is in some objective way" are at best indirectly linked.

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You gain and lose whichever decision is made, but there are still Elmali clans and the Elmali myths are still around. Elmal is going to be a playable sub-cult in an official publication.

I'll comment on the Elmali clan stuff below, but if you think something is gained, go ahead - what is gained by insisting that Elmal is Yelmalio at a 100% objective, uncomplicated fact?

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I can't say I've seen him say anything that vehement, but I have seen him get frustrated at and confused by "Elmalaboos" litigating the same fight over and over again which is going to wear down anyone if they deal with it long enough. And he's the one who allowed the Elmal subcult to be included when it's within his rights to just retcon Elmal out completely.

Let's quote the man himself.
"At this point, to be someone in Dragon Pass that refuses the acknowledge Yelmalio as a title of the Cold Sun, Lightfore, the Sky Dome, the last Light in the Darkness, etc. is to be perverse. You are refusing to accept what you have experienced in your cult rituals and worship ceremonies, concluding that the cult spirits have somehow betrayed you, that the ancient challenges and tests are wrong, and that somehow all communication with the god is misleading. At this point, you are cast out of your local Elmal cult (now normally called Yelmalio) and can go wander on your own."

quote:

The military might was a demonstration of Yelmalio's superior power relative to Elmal's. It came from Yelmalio's power, and if it was Monrogh's abilities as a Hero that accomplished it then Yelmalio was the one providing him those powers, powers which he didn't have when he worshipped Elmal. It's true that that quote speaks of them as separate gods, but also gods with a clear difference in relative power. Why is one part open to interpretation but the other not? Why must Elmal be at least the equal of Yelmalio when there is a direct statement they aren't?

The quote simply says that Monrogh offered his conquest as proof, and I'm happy to accept that at that time, for Monrogh, Yelmalio was a stronger god than Elmal. But "this one guy once conqoured some people" is hardly compelling evidence that Yelmalio is, always and as an objective fact stronger than Elmal. But you're the one insisting on a hard, objective hierarchy of gods that doesn't exist or need to.

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He wasn't always the sun god, he was retconned in. When he was introduced he was brought in as the Orlanthi sun god because someone asked who the Orlanthi sun god was before they made contact with Dara Happa. Lodril has had a bunch of different runes, should he only ever have Heat and Disorder?

Again, what is gained by this specific change? Elmal's light or fire rune isn't an incidental versioning difference, it's a part of a push for a specific, simplified, and boring version of glorantha.

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Why then does he need Fire in order to be loyal? Wouldn't Truth be the more important rune for that? If he was able to get all of his iconic fire spells through associated cults, or lost them completely, would that make him any less of a Loyal Thane?

He needs fire because he is mythologically the sun god and his major myths include him burning and cleansing things. His fire and brightness is a part of his main mythology and iconography. He is the friendly sun, the warrior sun, and that's an important part of his mythology.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2023 12:59

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

White Coke posted:

Greg Stafford literally said that Mongrogh proved Yelmalio was more powerful than Elmal and then confirmed that proof by subjugating the Kitori. Not that Yelmalio's cult was more powerful than Elmal's. If anything his cult would probably have been weaker since it took some time for the majority of Elmali to convert. It's not just a frivolous question, like who would win in a fight between Anne Frank and Lizzie Borden, but what statements from the creator of the setting you think should be regarded as canon forming. And if it is frivolous why defend the honor and integrity of Elmal in such a silly contest where he stand to gain nothing by winning?

So Yelmalio could be stronger than Elmal as Greg Stafford said, but could still provide weaker magic to his worshippers than Elmal does. Although I would dispute that given how Yelmalio's greater strength is directly correlated to defeating the Kitori.

Greg Stafford said he was stronger not some in-universe, limited perspective, highly biased source. The guy who made up Elmal, Yelmalio, and lot of other stuff. In fact was there ever a point when Stafford said Elmal and Yelmalio were wholly different gods without any connection? I was trying to find that out the other night and what I found said that Elmal first appeared in King of Sartar but that so did Monrogh's revelation. I have the revised edition so I can't verify if that's true but if it is then from the very beginning of his creation he was tied to Yelmalio.

Okay, I'm going to deal with this first. You insist on some bizzare space battle ranking, so let's engage. I'm going make two claims here: one, Greg did not say what you're claiming he said, Two, the question is nonsense on the first place.

Let's look at the actual quote:

quote:

In Sartar the great hero Monrogh established the cult. He originally worshipped Elmal, the sun of the Orlanthi pantheon, but followed other lights and entered into doctinal disputes with the Orlanthi priests who normally ranked over the sun. Monrogh was challenged by Prince Tarkalor of Sartar to reveal his god who was stronger than Elmal, and he revealed Yelmalio. As proof, Monrogh led the conquest of the Kitori, and Tarkalor granted him the wide conquered lands to honor and recognize the new god and his worshippers. A few thouand people departed from the worship of Elmal and converted to Yelmalio, then left their homelands and settled in the new grant by the Creekstream River.

This isn't a direct statement that Yelmalio is somehow greater than Elmal, it is merely a statement that Monrogh convinced Tarkalor through conquest - conquest of people Tarkalor didn't like, at that. This is only a statement about what Monrogh and Tarkalor believe, and their reasons for that. Now, you could argue that it is a good reason to believe that Yelmalio is stronger, but that's not the same as an objective statement.

The question is pointless anyway, though. Because gods don't have agency, and their strength exists primarily in relationship to mortals. You see, I can quote Greg too:
https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/big-god/

Here Greg lists a few criteria to determine the relative size or strength of a god. Their breadth of manifestation, their ultimate secrets, their depth of magic, and their worship. Now, you could go through and compare Elmal and Yelmalio here, but the important thing is that gods depend on their worshippers for strength. This is not because they don't exist outside of belief or whatever, it's because only mortals have the power to change the world. That is not to say that no god is ever greater than another, but it does mean that you can't use any one hero's power to prove the strength of this or that god.

And now that we're quoting Greg anyway, let's bring up what he actually said about Elmal vs Yelmalio.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/illusion/

quote:

A significant part of the entire Hero Wars is going to be whether or not people (both individuals and their societal backers) can convince others that their reality is more truthful than someone else�s. As the Hero wars progress the great and powerful beings will engage each other in Truth Contests, using the HeroQuest Challenge, to determine who is [more] right.

Imagine the time, which is going to come, when the entire world community of Yelmalio believers gives 100% support to their hero in a Quest Challenge to contest with the hero of Elmal, also backed by the entire Elmal world community. One will lose, and the entire world of that god will no longer be able to believe what they had before. The victor will then go on to contest whether their god is the True Sun God, pitted against Yelm and his worshippers.

Which will win? Well, whichever one is more powerful (in your game). In this manner huge portions of the world are essentially going to disappear

That's a pretty clear statement that Elmal and Yelmalio do not have absolute strengths that can be easily compared. It is a question of the strengths of their heroes and the conviction and strength of their worshippers. Because fundamentally it is people who have agency, mortals who can win and lose and contest.

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The exact role of the Yellow Planet is mysterious, what it does varies by culture, and isn't entirely clear in or out of universe.

Sure, but it's not the sun.

quote:

My issue with the Lightbringer's Quest regarding Elmal being the true sun is that it means Orlanth doesn't have to give anything up for the Great Compromise beyond what all the gods did by segregating themselves in the God Time. He kills Yelm and gets to remain king of the world without having to unhappily share dominion of it with Yelm.

I mean, he still does? And also, he had to raise from the dead his father's murder and allow his past as glorious emperor of all to be forever true.

quote:

The Sun Domes are all autonomous from each other and they don't have the exact same cultures or rites. If all the Sun Domes in Dragon Pass are misogynistic assholes then it's because the Elmali were misogynistic assholes before they converted, either due to northern solar worshipping influence or by being less egalitarian than non-Elmali Orlanthi because of their solar heritage. I think Jeff Richard said that the Praxian Sun Dome is particularly bad but isn't normative, and that Dragon Pass Sun Domes would be written in such a way to clarify that.

I'm not making some definite statement about how the Yelmalions should be. I was just mentioning it as one of the reasons Elmal fans especially dislike the change.

quote:

Do Elmali tribes lynch more tricksters on average than other tribes because they don't have as many Orlanth initiates to protect the tricksters? Do they cause more damage to the homes and crops of those they raid with their fire weapons?

Good questions! That's entirely possible, though as the followers of a defender cult, I doubt they raid offensively quite as much.

quote:

There's something to be said for creating specific, simplified, and boring versions of things to get new people involved by making it more friendly and accessible. And just in general trying to clean things up and clarify them is good.

This is an odd argument on several levels. For one, the most prominent ways to get into Runequest and Glorantha feature Elmal in a big way. For another, forcing Elmal to be Yelmalio invites arguments; keeping things the way they�ve been for 30 years lets everyone be happy. Yelmalio isn�t impacted in any way by Elmal existing independently, but Elmal, his cult, etc is greatly impacted by a very very recent editorial mandate that they must be the same. A lot of people would be less confused if there was simply an Elmal cult in the book.

More importantly, taking the game famous for its complexity and depth of culture and history and myth, which people have fallen in love for through a complex and interesting relationship of cults, cultures, and people, and making is �streamlined� is just loving missing the point. What�s even the point without a rich anthropological mythohistory?

quote:

Elmal, and Elmali clans are still around in the canon and even the present time of the setting. Elmal's myths are still true to an extent and can be heroquested. Elmal's worshippers didn't lose all access to their magic after Monrogh's revelation. You can play an Elmali who rejects the fact that Elmal is Yelmalio a go on all sorts of adventures based on that belief, but still receive spells and recover rune points because your character's understanding of their god is still kind of right.

As mentioned, Elmali who reject elmal-as-yelmalio are wierdo perverts according to Jeff. Elmal exists only as an unimportant appendage to Yelmalio in Jeff�s Glorantha, and also don�t bother because they�re all Yelmalions now.

White Coke posted:

Something else that occurred to me is that the God Learners were the ones who systematized the runes and spread them around with their empire right? So early Elmal worshippers wouldn't have had a strong understanding of the differences between the Light and Fire runes because those would've been foreign concepts to them until at least the Second Age, if not later given that Dragon Pass was under the control of the EWF. And if Monrogh's proof of Yelmalio's greater power was actually just him being a very strong hero, and that by performing the Hill of Gold 'wrong' a Yelmalian can gain fire powers, and if Elmal Guards the Stead is a variation of the Hill of Gold (as per modern canon) then perhaps the fire magic Elmali had access to is a result of them doing the Hill of Gold 'wrong' institutionally, and since there is such a large body of Elmal worshippers who have access to fire magic they don't realize Elmal lost it. I saw someone mention that the blessings Elmal provides a tribe in KoDP don't have anything to do with heat and from what I can see that seems true. After all the Cold Sun can help crops grow without providing any heat. So while individual Elmali have a standardized way to gain access to fire magic and they tell myths mentioning Elmal's heat it doesn't mean that Elmal has to have the Fire rune in order to explain why his worshippers can shoot fire arrows and use fiery spears.

This is a bizzare misreading of how the world works. If the main Elmal cult consistently heroquest a version of Elmal with the fire rune then... Elmal has the fire rune. Like, that's how heroquesting works. If you consistently quest in a partcular way, you can (and do) affect the gods, because that's how humans can affect and change the gods. We have a specific quote on this regarding Yelmalio, even!
"Eventually, if the Yelmalion was able set up his own subcult of Yelmalio to teach this path, then it could become true for all Yelmalions-Yelmalio would not lose his fire powers, Zorak Zoran would not gain them. Myth and history would have been changed." (Arcane Lore, pg 78)
(Also, guarding the stead as a hill of gold variant makes no sense, just for the record).

White Coke posted:

Speaking from my own experience, finding out about the Elmal holdouts was and is a strange experience. If the game's canon was changed to contradict what its creator wrote in order to satisfy the fans with a very strong attachment to a video game, and then new players were to learn about how Elmal was Yelmalio until the game designers catered to a specific group of fans in order to make them happy even though it went against what Greg Stafford wrote I imagine they'd be even more confused.

Greg Stafford wrote Elmal, though. Stafford has been writing glorantha for like 30 years with Elmal in it. What's happening is that the canon is being changed now to appeal to grogs from the 80's for some bizzare reason.

quote:

What's the alternative? The game saying that Monrogh might have been wrong about proving Elmal is Yelmalio? Or does the game need to say Monrogh is a liar and Lunar puppet who tricked the naive and virtuous Elmali into worshipping a wimp? Or maybe Monrogh's revelation and all of the attendant history and metaphysics need to be removed so that no possibility exists of anyone thinking there's any official sanction to the idea Elmal is Yelmalio?

I mean, the setting has worked fine for many years with the answer ultimately dependent on the actions of heroes. Of course, HeroWars and HeroQuest also had the perfectly functional answer that Yelmalio-worship had been incorpoated into Elmal through contact with solar cultures, and Monrogh followed that to its source and revealed Yelmalio.

quote:

Because this argument isn't about some peoples' home-brew settings. It's about the official game canon which people obviously care about given how much people have argued about how Elmal needs to be a distinct god and have taken issue with the direction Jeff Richard is taking the current version. Since the game's canon is being fought over then of course some people are going to feel offended, ignored, and patronized because their preferences aren't going to be elevated over other peoples' and given official sanction. But you can't just flip a switch and have Elmal no longer be Yelmalio without it creating a host of other issues. Shargash-is-Tolat sounds similar to Elmal-is-Yelmalio. The Friendly Sun is the sun, but The Winter Sun isn't at all. Do Pentans worship Humakt or North War Wind (or Hueymakt)? &c.

What host of other issues? Please, give examples.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2023 20:45

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

White Coke posted:

I keep bringing up the 'bizarre space battle rankings' because I think you keep dismissing what seems to me such a direct statement about not just their relative power but what established the link between Elmal and Yelmalio. I don't care about a grand unified theory of who can beat whom. I first brought up the relative strength of the two because I had seen the opposite argued, that Elmal was stronger than Yelmalio and that that was proof of their difference and then I discovered something from Stafford which said that they were the same because they were unequal.

The article you posted was very interesting and had some quotes of particular interest like:

and

but since it doesn't have any direct statements regarding the relative power of Elmal vs. Yelmalio and how that relates to the nature of their metaphysical relationship there's no relevance to it as regards this argument other than engaging in endless space battle rankings based on vibes.

I mean, it very clearly supports my claim that godly strength isn't an absolute thing, but dependent on the mortal world.

quote:

What you quoted seems to lean towards soft Elmal-is-Yelmalio-ism since it presents it as an issue yet to be fully resolved which I do find more interesting than just saying "Move along Elmal is Yelmalio nothing to see here".

The way he describes the Hero Wars as a conflict between gods via their cults for who gets to be the one true god of this-or-that is a lot more interesting than King of Sartar's "Argrath gets all the gods eaten" ending to the Hero Wars.

I have nothing against "Elmal and Yelmalio are connected" or "Elmal and Yelmalio may have some degree of shared nature," I am against it being established as absolute truth that Elmal is just a different mask of Yelmalio, and especially that this is an obvious in universe truth that everyone accepts.

quote:

It's the light of the sun that endured after Yelm's death which is why it doesn't go into the Underworld at night, but before Yelm died the sun's light was part of him so during the day Lightfore might still be in the sky but impossible to see because it is out shone by the sun or merges with it at dawn before separating again at dusk. But such a possibility cannot be entertained because of its implications.

Sure it can. Elmal having lightfore connections is fine?

quote:

If he raised Yelm from the dead then Yelm is the sun not Elmal. If Elmal isn't the sun then how does he manifest in the world and how does it make him a sun god and not a planetary god?

Yelm is the sun disk, Elmal is all the good friendly parts; mythologically, he pulls or rides the sun disk itself.

quote:

What about lynching tricksters?

As a defender cult are they responsible for rounding up and executing suspected tricksters? The stead must be guarded from internal enemies too. I keep harping on this point because Orlanthi society has its share of unpleasantness and the Elmali must surely participate in it too if they are Orlanthi. If players feel that they have to be a 'Puritanical Mormon Spartan' as I believe someone put it (quite aptly) in order to authentically play a Yelmalian then there are all sorts of unseemly behavior which have uncomfortable parallels with the real world an orthodox Elmali would have to get up to.

Elmal isn't the god of that sort of internal guardianship, except in a minor way as s god of justice. However, I would not be surprised if tricksters get lynched more often in Elmali tribes.

quote:

KoDP and SA are both set in earlier time periods. Making books to allow people to play in earlier time periods would be great but aside from Elmal there's been a bunch of changes from how things are depicted in KoDP. Should the setting also revert back to them?

If you want to preserve the rich anthropological mythohistory, then having Elmal be definitively not Yelmalio would require ignoring or removing any lore from the setting regarding Monrogh's revelation and still require taking a definitive authorial position about the nature of not just Elmal but by extension the gods in general. When people say that Elmal-is-Yelmalio is God Learnerism or Monomythism they're making a statement about the setting as a whole not just this one case.

I'm not in favor of making an ultimate statement about Elmal never under any circumstances also being Yelmalio, I'm making an argument in favour of ambiguity and complexity.

quote:

That Greg Sez article I posted was from March 2000. So to say that it'd been settled for 30 years until some grognards came in recently to mess everything up seems inaccurate to me. And wasn't Stafford involved with the early development of Runequest: Glorantha before he died? At the very least there's been ambiguity about the nature of their natures for a long time instead of a definitive separation recently undone.

Yep. What's recently undone is the open question, the complexity, and the general presence of Elmal among the Orlanthi.

quote:

Well despite his personal feelings he's going to allow them to be playable. If you don't want to play something associated with someone who has insulted the kind of character you want to play then don't, but if he had said Elmali were all well meaning but misguided holdouts would you drop your rejection of Elmal-is-Yelmalio?

I mean, he's not going to allow you to play a traditional Elmali the way they've been portrayed, with his own cult and presence in orlanthi culture. Just Yelmalions as a part of a specific subcult.

quote:

So if consistent heroquesting can change the nature of a god such as giving them a rune they might not have had, then couldn't a single incredibly powerful hero like Monrogh who could almost single handedly defeat an enemy that the kingdom of Sartar was unable to, and used that victory as proof of his revelation about the nature of his god Yelmalio vis Elmal have heroquested in such a way as to turn Elmal into Yelmalio?

Sure, and I'm sure that for him that is true. But there should still exist a large and lively tradition of Elmali, and their Truth should also still be true.

quote:

I don't quite follow regarding HeroWars and HeroQuest. Is it that Yelmalio worship was blended with Elmal worship until it was strong enough within Elmali rituals that Monrogh led mass conversions to Yelmalio? If so why did Elmali shift over to Yelmalio according to those books?

Let me just quote the book. Storm tribe:
"Orlanthi tribesmen have worshipped Elmal since the Dawn. Over the centuries, the Elmali have come in contact with many other solar cults. Some worshippers or temples have adopted foreign rites and practices, and each time they did so it led to disaster. In the time of King Tarkalor of Sartar, some temples again held to foreign customs. Trouble arose that threatened to turn to kinstrife.
Orlanth pointed out that Elmal�s brothers were again trying to make his light their own. Elmal inspired one of his worshippers who had gone wrong how to find what he wanted. Thus it was that the lord Monro discovered that he actually worshipped Yelmalio, not Elmal. He went away with the other dissenters and ended the conflict in the land. Since then, the Elmali have remained true to their original traditions."

I thought Heroquest Kingdom of Sartar had a little more, but this is what i could find:
"Elmal and Yelmalio
Since the Dawn the Orlanthi have come regularly into contact with the rich solar cultures to the north. Many of these cultures also worshiped the Sun, but in other guises. The impact of this Dara Happan culture was particularly strong; at first the impact was superficial, as the Elmali began to adopt gold as their preferred metal, later it became more substantial. In King Tarkalor�s reign Monro Lantern was one person who sought another way for the Elmali. He heroquested, and brought back Yelmalio.

The deity was already known, under different names, as the wounded sun, limping across the sky. Monro recited the List of Visionaries whose work had paved the way for the liberation of Yelmalio among people."

quote:

To build off of the three I mentioned:

1) If Elmal can't be Yelmalio because Elmal is the sun and Yelmalio is Lightfore, but Shargash is Tolat because they are both the Red Planet then that suggests all gods which share the same celestial body or other embodied physical feature or natural process, like death, are the same god. This would mean Elmal is Yelm, which seems to be what many Elmali were coming around to before Monrogh got them to worship Yelmalio instead.

I'm not familliar with Shargash and Tolat, but the differences betwee Elmal and Yelmalio are a lot more than Sun vs Lightfore. However, I don' think that all gods who are gods of the same thing should be the same god, but i also don't mind if some gods of similar things get syncretized by the people of Glorantha. Gods are as much about culture as about whatever phenomena they embody in the natural world.

quote:

2) When is a sun the sun? When they have the Fire rune instead of Light? Shargash has the Fire rune and was also a sun during the Greater Darkness but is now a planet. If a planet can have the Fire rune why can't a sun have the Light rune? Must all gods be locked into having specific runes because of the roles they fulfill? Isn't that God Learnerism, to say that gods have to have specific runes in order to fulfill their requisite functions and from there you say that all those gods must be the same because they have the same runes and do the same things? If one rejects the idea that sharing the same runes means that two gods have to be the same, but doesn't also reject the idea that two gods can actually be the same then why do they have to have identical runes?

God's runes should describe the things they do. The light rune is specifically for light-without-heat, and that's not the thing Elmal does; it also exists mostly for Yelmalio, so it's a sticking point. But there's no reason to believe that two gods with the same runes must be the same god. That said, if gods have different runes, they are probably at best aspects of a greater truth in some manner.

quote:

3) The Guide to Glorantha says that some Pentan tribes worship Storm gods and lists them plus their Orlanthi analogues. This is presented as a recent development. I think it might not just be post Sheng Seleris but within living memory. The Guide mentions a new tribe, the Women Warriors, who reject the traditional gender norms for men and women but does say that the Storm tribes "maintain the ancient social structure derived from Kargzant". The implication is that these are the Orlanthi gods but adapted to local conditions. There isn't any mention of them being Lunar New Gods or recently rediscovered Pentan gods from the God Time. I'm unaware of where it is mentioned that the Pentans used to worship the Storm gods, so they've quite dramatically reinterpreted gods who are foreign to them. There isn't mention of a revelation like Monrogh's but it does show that gods can be rather radically reinterpreted, even renamed, but still be the same, which fits in with at least a soft Elmal-is-Yelmalio interpretation. Is such an interpretation to be thrown out because of its implications?

Oh, this is actually a very good set of questions, lets explore them a bit. So, this is fundamentally the same question as the real world question of 'is Mars and Ares the same' or 'Is Aphordite the same as Astarte' or 'is Inanna the same as Ishtar'. These are pretty interesting questions! We also have Greg's reference or Worlanth as 'an inferior manifestation.'
So let's consider, when is a god the same or a different god. To be clear, i don't think there's a correct answer to this, but these are the things I'd concider, in mostly no particualar order.

Do they fulfill similar roles in the mythology? That is, do their myths serve to explain the origin and reasons of the same things? Humakt's mythology serves to explain the nature of death and its impartiality, does the North War Wind do the same? He is also a war-god, related to the role of death in war, does that relate to the North War Wind as well?
Do the worshipers of the gods have a shared mythology? Are their stories of the gods similar, and when they diverge do they diverge in meaningful ways or in minor ones? For example, does the West King Wind fight a solar emperor? Does he gather lieutenants to his and struggle for mastery of the world? Does he set out on the lightbringers' quest?
As a related - and probably one of the most important - question, do the worshipers acknowledge the other god as their own, and is that reciprocal? Would a storm tribe pentan and an orlanthi noble look at the rites, etc of the other and consider it a (possibly wrong/misguided/etc) version of their own?

And let's consider 'inferior manifestations'. When can we say that so-and-so god is a lesser version of another? well, i think, when that god's myths serve to explain things, but explains them in less depth and with less completeness than the more complete version, but explain fundamentally similar things in fundamentally similar ways. E.g. a version of Orlanth where the lightbringer's quest is missing or less important has a less complete version of why Orlanth is currently the big man on campus. One which does not have his relationship to Ernalda or Heler says less about why and how the air fertilizes the earth, etc.

That said, the question is complex, and when gods are the same and when they're different is something that different people (including in setting, importantly!) will judge differently. That's good! that's a source of drama and interest!

# ¿ Sep 23, 2023 16:58

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

radmonger posted:

Then you are in luck, because I�ve not see any attempt to establish that.

What there is is a book series called Cults of Runequest, which will reportedly state as a game rule that Elmal is a _subcult_ of Yelmalio. Subcult is a rule term that mean you can potentially worship at, and learn magic from, multiple sub cults of the same cult without hitting game mechanical consequences like sprits of reprisal or split rune pools.

As is the purpose of game rules, this answers practical in-play questions like �if my Elmali worshipper signs up for a term of service with the Sun Dome Templars, does he get kicked out of the clan?�

Or we can see what the book says...

"A subcult is a smaller and often local version of a cult, which worships a local variant of the deity, a minor god subservient to the deity, an ancient hero, family ancestors, or an obscure spirit surviving from the God Time. Such deities are always worshiped as aspects of, or otherwise in association with a greater deity. The lesser deity obtains its glory and existence from the larger cult.
The subcult has no existence independent of the larger cult. Major cults always include subcults; some cults like Orlanth have subcults of minor deities and spirits and/or dead heroes. These entities depend completely upon the central deity for existence: they are not worshiped outside the cult. Some, like Orlanth, have over a dozen commonly recognized subcults. A subcult provides access to additional Rune spells, spirit magic, skills, or powers to initiates of the greater cult who also worship through the subcult."

That's the RQ:G explanation of subcults. When Jeff says that the Elmal cult exist as a subcult of Yelmalio, this is exactly what he means, that Elmal's cult exist only as a part of Yelmalio's, that all Elmal worship is subsumed by Yelmalio.

And Jeff has said, many times, that this is an obvious truth to everyone in setting - i quoted him earlier saying that if you're an Elmali who doesn't think Elmal is Yelmalio, you're perverse and in denial about what your own cultic rituals and divination tell you and probably get tossed out of the cult for heresy. Jeff 100% intends 'Elmal is just Yelmalio" to be an absolute, in-universe truth.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2023 21:04

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 19:27

Magnusth: Sep 25, 2014; _{Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!}

White Coke posted:

Can you clarify some things for me? You previously said:

If the gods' power is primarily determined by their worshippers, and even their runes can be altered through experimental Heroquesting then would the gods have any fundamental essence of their own or are they just constructs formed of mortal belief? That Storm Tribe quote presents Elmal gently expelling the worshippers who have altered his rites too much by redirecting their worship to the proper god, but you seem to say that gods are ultimately at the mercy of their worshippers regarding their nature.

My understanding is that the gods are fixed by their action in Godtime and attempts to change them without breaking the Compromise can work temporarily but will eventually lead to them reverting like what happened with the God Learners, but because much knowledge of the gods is still lost and given how different cultures myths have been forced into a single world they can potential be radically "altered" from the perspectives of their worshippers.

So, to clarify that quote, it's from the myth and history section, it should, I think, be understood as what loyal Elmali think, not as a hard statement of fact.

As for the metaphysics, my understanding is like this: the gods are real and exist, both within the god's world, which is the metaphysical underpinning, the realm of explanation, more than it is the past, and also manifest in the world in specific ways. Heler is embodied in the rain, Orlanth in the wind and in orlanthi social structures etc. However, as a part of the comprise, they cannot act. They are static unless acted upon.

Humans, however, do have agency, and can act. Through worship and heroquesting, they can enter the gods world and make real changes and real differences. Greg gives an example how how that might look with Yelmalio and Fire, but it has happened before - Orlanth Rex and and establishment of kingship over priests seem to have been one such change, for example. The Red Empress is another major one! Note here, this is not a question of belief, but of action and ritual. You must connect with the gods on the god world and change the myth, enter into the metaphysical underpinning of the world to change things, and you must do it on a wide enough scale. Otherwise you can change the truth for you, but not for the world as a whole. There are other examples of this, it is (on the historical scale) relatively common. Some get reset to some degree, others don't.

White Coke posted:

Why? There are sociopolitical reasons for why Elmal worship would have declined aside from the metaphysical truth of Monrogh's revelation, and unless the size and uniformity of a god's cult is the only thing that matters their Truth would still be true. Plus there is still a group of Elmali who don't admit Yelmalians or accept that Elmal is Yelmaio:

Not according to Jeff!

"
So as of 1625, it makes sense to speak of the Yelmalio cult in Sartar, most of which is focused on the Sun Dome Temple as their religious center. This cult is inter-tribal. There is a small group centred on Runegate that still puts Yelmalio into a tribal cult structure, but otherwise, most Yelmalio cultists that live outside of Sun Dome County look to the Sun Dome temple for militia duties, religious ceremonies, etc.

The bulk of the 250 Yelmalio cultists around Runegate belong to the Enyhli Clan, but the Narri have a fair number as well. The cultists around Runegate worship Yelmalio as an associate of Orlanth Rex. They don’t use the pike, they ride horses, etc. As described in the cult writeup"

quote:

How large of a presence do you want them to have? Depending on the ratio of Elmali to Yelmalians there are different kinds of stories you can tell and while you may not want to tell any stories about Elmali being reduced to a minority there are some who will want to play as an embattled, almost extinct minority plus people might want to tell stories about how the absence of Elmali has changed the broader culture, like how with most Elmali converted and moved south to the Sun Domes there aren't any Elmali around to participate in Sacred Time rites so they have to find a replacement which could mean traveling until they find an Elmali who might be from a hostile tribe, getting a Yelmalian, or finding some other solar god worshipper. We can all come up with all sorts of story ideas based on the different numbers and status of Elmal, some speak more to you and its unfortunate that the current lore is something that you find not just un-compelling but repellant but it's how things have been written and it'd require changing a lot of material. For example I think that the loss of the majority of Elmali is supposed to have critically weakened Dragon Pass militarily, with their conversion to Yelmalians being a political lesser evil since the Elmali were being lured over into Yelm worship and thus Lunar influence. Get rid of that and does the Kingdom of Sartar fall? If it doesn't then the Holy Country won't come under siege and does Belintar still disappear?

The cult has been comfortably written as having a minor but real presence in sartar for decades. I don't mind Elmal being a relatively minor cult, but there's a world of difference between a relatively minor cult with one major temple and being a subcult of Yelmalio. A few Elmali clans, a few of the tribes might have shrines, not much more than that. Compare Jeff's "250 cultists around runegate" to Sartar Kingdom of heroes listing 1000 Vs Yelmalio 3000 in Sartar. This is how things have been written for decades, it is Jeff changing things to insist on a single monomythic Truth that requires changing material.

quote:

Is that a distinction they'd have made at the Dawn? King of Sartar just says that in the First Age the Orlanthi called him the sun god until they met the Dara Happans and acknowledged that Yelm was the sun too and that the Dara Happans worshipped Yelm, not Yelm through Elmal.

Seems like a fairly reasonable distinction to make. Whether or it they made it at dawn, it is how Elmal is portrayed in e.g. the guide.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2023 12:21

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