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OP are you interested in changing how you live your life? The way I read your post, most of your stress comes from two things. Not being able to discuss your conclusions about the existence of God, and not being able to satisfy your curiosity about the world around you. If you could do those things, would you keep on living the way you do now? Keeping the same family, job, friends, and behaviors? I know we've been talking about you and not so much about the life you lead. I find myself a little bit in the same boat. I don't know what I don't know. But I'd like to know more. One thing I'm interested in is that your community uses smart phones. Did that develop reluctantly and was only accepted after appropriate filters were developed, or do you think someone decided it would be something useful, and tried to make it fit in as quickly as possible?
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Jul 23, 2018 00:53
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Does it bother you a lot that you have to teach your kids things that you yourself don't believe in? Or do you see it as just what you have to do in order to continue to be in their lives? Do you ever try to subtly discourage them from believing the things that you disagree with most strongly? How much do you and the people in your community identify with being American? I'm curious because you talk about what a culture shock it would be if you left your community. Do all the cultural differences lead to people not seeing themselves as American and/or not seeing themselves as having much in common with other Americans?
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Jul 23, 2018 01:06
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Never having met anyone of the opposite sex aside from family members and then marrying one after meeting twice seems crazy to me. But I guess Satmar are hardly the only ones who do it that way. At least it sounds like they match 2 young adults rather than a 14 year old girl with a 50 year old man. Are you apprehensive about having to match your own kids like that? I hear arranged marriages are actually more likely to "succeed" than non-arranged ones, although I assume at least some of that is that they tend to occur in cultures that very strongly discourage divorces. Did your thoughts on arranged marriage change once you stopped believing?
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Jul 24, 2018 00:17
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The Moon Monster posted:At least it sounds like they match 2 young adults rather than a 14 year old girl with a 50 year old man.
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Jul 24, 2018 01:03
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i like nice words
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Is it legal for a father to be kept from his children after a divorce when he has done nothing wrong? It seems like the secular laws would prevent this - even if the religious laws of the community conflict, the secular laws override them.
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Jul 24, 2018 04:37
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Do people in the Satmar community talk about other religions?
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Jul 24, 2018 05:40
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BarbarianElephant posted:Is it legal for a father to be kept from his children after a divorce when he has done nothing wrong? It seems like the secular laws would prevent this - even if the religious laws of the community conflict, the secular laws override them. That would depend a lot on what 'kept from' means exactly that would be a bit of a tangent to discuss.
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Jul 24, 2018 09:13
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BarbarianElephant posted:Is it legal for a father to be kept from his children after a divorce when he has done nothing wrong? It seems like the secular laws would prevent this - even if the religious laws of the community conflict, the secular laws override them. http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/satmar-custody-case-hinges-on-value-of-religious-community/ 
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Jul 24, 2018 14:42
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You mentioned that leaving to join another, less strict Jewish community would be considered as bad as just leaving. As a reform jew myself, I'm curious to hear how your community talks about other religious sects. Obviously it doesn't like them, but is it like the lgbt thing where they're just mentioned as little as possible, or are they openly disparaged? Are you taught in your religious school about them, is it just kinda mentioned that these other things exist, to what extent do members of your community know about other Jewish sects?
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Jul 25, 2018 09:26
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It's weird to me that the courts are just fine with this sort of stuff happening when it's a religion, but if it were any other sort of relationship, would be considered abusive.
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Jul 25, 2018 19:24
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No questions to add, but this is fascinating OP.
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Jul 25, 2018 19:29
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I apologize if this question sucks for you but I'm curious as hell. What do you think of your relationship to your community and especially your wife, given that they'd all want you gone if they knew the truth about you? To me its completely inconceivable to even try for a romantic relationship where that level of dishonesty and secrecy is necessary. Knowing that the person I am supposed to trust and depend on most in life would never accept me if they knew the truth about me is just about the most psychologically painful thing I can imagine.
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Jul 30, 2018 17:01
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I've lived in the closet (different issue, same hiding-everything-from-everyone), and I know how isolated that can make you feel - it's horrible, and I'm sorry you're in that position.
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Aug 5, 2018 00:18
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OP, most goons don't know how to dress like a normal person either.
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Aug 5, 2018 20:58
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Jorts and a game-reference t-shirt, simple 
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Aug 5, 2018 22:48
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Has anyone bought the OP PMs yet?
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Aug 5, 2018 23:57
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OP, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's just terrible. It's not right. For the record, I'm an atheist who was raised Orthodox Jewish, and went to an Orthodox school. Orthodox Judaism isn't even remotely as extreme as what you describe - there was no community you had to live in closed off from the outside world with religious secret police reading your phone. I don't know what to ask. I wish you well.
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Aug 6, 2018 10:15
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OP, what would you do if one of your children came to you with doubts?
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Sep 28, 2018 08:22
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OP, you said people aren't taught English in your community. Does that mean that the only outsiders the community deals with are Yiddish-speakers or are there a select few in the community who act as English interpreters? For that matter, do you have to hide the fact you speak English? I imagine finding people who speak Yiddish would not be that hard in a big American city, but it must be horrible when you have to travel abroad or to a smaller town.
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Sep 28, 2018 11:17
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DawnOfMinstrel posted:OP, you said people aren't taught English in your community. Does that mean that the only outsiders the community deals with are Yiddish-speakers or are there a select few in the community who act as English interpreters? For that matter, do you have to hide the fact you speak English? I think the only abroad travel they'd do would be to Israel, if at all. My understanding is that Satmar communities simply never need to leave their area - everything is part of the community from cradle to grave. There might be people who speak English that do business outside the community but that might be it.
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Sep 28, 2018 20:41
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If you were to leave the community, are there aspects of Satmar life that you would keep? I'm a non-observant jew but I still enjoy doing certain things, like observing the Sabbath as you mentioned- not in an ultra-orthodox way, IE I have no qualms about flipping a light switch, but having a dedicated "off day", walking everywhere, minimizing electronics usage, having a nice, sitdown friday meal with loved ones... I think it's good for mental health even if I don't believe I've been commanded by god to do it. I assume you've kept kosher all your life too- if you left, would you immediately start hitting the cheeseburgers or mostly keep the same diet? Also, has questioning your faith in this way caused any alienation in non-religious life, compared to your peers? For example, politically. I imagine a non-religious SA goon is going to have a very different outlook from the average person in your community on say, LGBTQ rights or the state of Israel. Or entertainment-wise- using your unfiltered phone do you find yourself wishing you could talk to friends and family about media or news that they haven't seen? Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Sep 30, 2018 |
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Sep 30, 2018 19:06
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I wonder what the reasons for this extreme level of social control is. OP, do the Satmar expect the end times to happen soon? Or is there just an extreme view of the outside world as immoral? As others have said, this is wrong and no person should be controlled in this manner. I don't know what I could do to help you out, but I hope you make it.
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Oct 1, 2018 09:31
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If you leave your wife/she leaves you, will the community have her marry some one else right away? How do you feel about leaving your kids and trying to reach out to them if they don't come with you?
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Oct 1, 2018 10:55
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OP was likely killed in what I presume was a very orthodox fashion several months ago, sorry.
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Oct 1, 2018 11:02
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I hope the OP isn’t dead 
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Oct 2, 2018 15:13
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Xun posted:I hope the OP isn’t dead Ask me about living a Satmar life as a corpse
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Oct 3, 2018 14:50
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[2 years later] Ask me about the jewish inquisition.
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Oct 4, 2018 17:41
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Lima posted:[2 years later] Ask me about the jewish inquisition. Wow, definitely didn't expect that.
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Oct 4, 2018 18:47
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Well, if anything bad did happen, and I really hope it didn't, I did warn him to be really loving careful, because we already know the Satmars are aware of Something Awful and have tracked/harassed ex-Satmar forums posters in the past.
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Oct 4, 2018 19:35
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What would happen if he left, divorced his wife, then sued for custody
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Oct 7, 2018 16:11
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He probably can’t afford lawyers as good as the ones the community can get with pooled resources, plus I’ve heard of cases where they actively poison the kids against the person who leaves.  I think this article explains it better than I ever could https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-the-harsh-reality-awaiting-hasidic-jews-who-leave-the-fold-1.5459985 Xun fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 8, 2018 |
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Oct 8, 2018 00:45
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Xun posted:
Looks like it’s behind a paywall.
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Oct 8, 2018 22:21
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Xun posted:He probably can’t afford lawyers as good as the ones the community can get with pooled resources, plus I’ve heard of cases where they actively poison the kids against the person who leaves. The article mentions a documentary that happens to be on Netflix, if anyone is interested in watching it. Pretty hosed up stuff.
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Oct 8, 2018 22:30
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Netflix documentary is 'One of Us' for those who don't want to gently caress with the paywall.
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Oct 9, 2018 03:17
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Oh huh, didn’t realize it had a paywall at all. I read the article before posting it here but I guess the wall went up afterwards. Edit: weirdly enough I get the whole article if I click it on google through my phone  Im going to quote the bits relevant to custody and lawyering upquote:Ausch is fighting to regain custody of her young children, but feels cowed by the money and influence that back her ex-husband, she tells Haaretz. The community pays for his excellent private lawyers; she is represented by the New York Legal Assistance Group, which aids the indigent. I think Ausch is from a different community than OP, but it sounds like it’s quite tough to get custody
Xun fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Oct 9, 2018 |
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Oct 9, 2018 15:01
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You want another example that underscores how bad ultra-orthodox communities are? If a woman divorces her husband, obtaining a get - the religious decree of divorce - is solely up to the husband to grant it. A few years back, there was this rogue rabbi who would hire himself and his team of what I'm assuming are heavily muscular hired goons with peyos to kidnap the husband and threaten him until he signed the get, and to break a few bones until he did. https://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2015/12/rabbis_sentenced_to_prison_for_plot_to_kidnap_husb.html
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Oct 9, 2018 18:56
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MJP posted:You want another example that underscores how bad ultra-orthodox communities are? If a woman divorces her husband, obtaining a get - the religious decree of divorce - is solely up to the husband to grant it. A few years back, there was this rogue rabbi who would hire himself and his team of what I'm assuming are heavily muscular hired goons with peyos to kidnap the husband and threaten him until he signed the get, and to break a few bones until he did. https://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2015/12/rabbis_sentenced_to_prison_for_plot_to_kidnap_husb.html
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Oct 9, 2018 19:18
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MJP posted:You want another example that underscores how bad ultra-orthodox communities are? If a woman divorces her husband, obtaining a get - the religious decree of divorce - is solely up to the husband to grant it. A few years back, there was this rogue rabbi who would hire himself and his team of what I'm assuming are heavily muscular hired goons with peyos to kidnap the husband and threaten him until he signed the get, and to break a few bones until he did. https://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2015/12/rabbis_sentenced_to_prison_for_plot_to_kidnap_husb.html Also they apparently had quite the issue with child rape, not unlike the Catholic church. Who knew powerful, hierarchical societies all operate in similar, disgusting ways?
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Oct 9, 2018 19:44
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PT6A posted:Also they apparently had quite the issue with child rape, not unlike the Catholic church. Who knew powerful, hierarchical societies all operate in similar, disgusting ways? You think that's bad, google "metzitzah b'peh", and try not to vomit.
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Oct 9, 2018 20:33
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MJP posted:You want another example that underscores how bad ultra-orthodox communities are? If a woman divorces her husband, obtaining a get - the religious decree of divorce - is solely up to the husband to grant it. A few years back, there was this rogue rabbi who would hire himself and his team of what I'm assuming are heavily muscular hired goons with peyos to kidnap the husband and threaten him until he signed the get, and to break a few bones until he did. So if the husband was being a dick and refused to grant a religious divorce (thus making it impossible for the wife to remarry), she could actually get back at him? Not really seeing the downside here.
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Oct 9, 2018 21:02
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