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https://youtu.be/3K_oAPnjhw0 Kurtofan posted:Hereditary system doesnt seen a very good way to pick governments, weird votes got us Trump
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Jul 18, 2018 18:51
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Captain_Maclaine posted:The Soviet attitude toward him was usually tied up in residual Russian nationalism and pride in defeating the Grand Army, which became all the more acute when Stalin started lionizing Suvorov and Kutuzov during the great patriotic war. didn't help that Churchill started making Napoleonic allusions in his public diatribes against hitler around the same time, even if he also once said it gave hitler far too much credit to compare him to bonaparte
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Jul 18, 2018 21:34
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hot take: executing children is bad.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:24
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AlexanderCA posted:hot take: executing children is bad. they'd have to be human before they could be children, which they werent
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Jul 18, 2018 22:29
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imo should have kept the adult romanovs in a zoo for the workers to come and throw things at
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Jul 18, 2018 22:31
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AlexanderCA posted:hot take: executing children is bad. It's bad to execute children It's worse to have a hereditary monarchy Lesser of two evils bitch
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Jul 18, 2018 22:33
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Tsar coulda saved his family. Didn't. Kids' deaths are on him.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:34
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phasmid posted:Tsar coulda saved his family. Didn't. Kids' deaths are on him. It's partially on George V too, who had the opportunity to rescue the Romanovs at a time when it would've likely succeeded but decided against it.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:36
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My favorite Tsar Nich 2 fact is his uncle threatened to shoot himself if nicholas didn't agree to some reforms. even his own family thought he was a loving moron
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Jul 18, 2018 22:36
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Venom Snake posted:My favorite Tsar Nich 2 fact is his uncle threatened to shoot himself if nicholas didn't agree to some reforms. even his own family thought he was a loving moron Nick himself admitted he wasn't up to the job more than once, but was too dim a bulb to see any alternative.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:42
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Captain_Maclaine posted:It's partially on George V too, who had the opportunity to rescue the Romanovs at a time when it would've likely succeeded but decided against it. He was another good example of an unfit monarch in a modern world he didn't understand. I seem to remember something about a proposed rescue but it's been a while and what I read was little more than a footnote.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:46
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^basically, the left in the uk and France were agitating hard because of the war, and georgeV was worried bringing his cousin home would cause massive unrest - which Britain really couldn’t handle at the moment. so he chose security of his throne over his relatives. the guy hated any kind of liberal reforms and believed not just in divine right but absolute rule. it’s a funny kind of sad to read about the 1905 revolution wherein people thought if they peacefully protested to the tsar, he would see the error of his ways. Captain_Maclaine posted:It's partially on George V too, who had the opportunity to rescue the Romanovs at a time when it would've likely succeeded but decided against it. lol that the allies abandoned Russia the moment they left the war.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:48
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really queer Christmas posted:^basically, the left in the uk and France were agitating hard because of the war, and georgeV was worried bringing his cousin home would cause massive unrest - which Britain really couldn’t handle at the moment. so he chose security of his throne over his relatives. There's no doubt he thought of himself as an enlightened despot charged to defend his troubled country. That kind of mindset has gotten us a lot of bloodshed over the years, so when I see people romanticizing monarchy it creeps me out and makes me angry. Like, people tried protesting in Paris a long time ago too, back when it was a feudal shithole. Once they got rid of the crown (and the neck) they were able to rebuild it into a beautiful, modern place. That's a shining example of why we never want kings ever again.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:58
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Crane Fist posted:It's bad to execute children This is the 100% correct take.
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Jul 18, 2018 23:02
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phasmid posted:He was another good example of an unfit monarch in a modern world he didn't understand. I seem to remember something about a proposed rescue but it's been a while and what I read was little more than a footnote. For reasons already stated he didn't want to risk backlash within Britain that would inevitably have accompanied his intervening to rescue an absolutist monarch who didn't have a particularly good reputation in Britain, to put it mildly, with anyone other than the most hardline Tory monarchists. Also, he was naive enough to figure that while imprisonment would suck for Nicholas et al that'd be the end of it since you can't just shoot a tsar and then whoops, guess what. George felt he had his cousin's blood on his hands for the rest of his life, never forgave himself for choosing to leave the Romanovs to their fate. really queer Christmas posted:the guy hated any kind of liberal reforms and believed not just in divine right but absolute rule. it’s a funny kind of sad to read about the 1905 revolution wherein people thought if they peacefully protested to the tsar, he would see the error of his ways. "The good king led astray by wicked advisors" was an enduring myth in, well, just about every country that had a monarchy and lingered particularly long in Imperial Russia, eventually even resurfacing during the great terror in mutated form as "if only Comrade Stalin knew what was happening, he'd put a stop to it." quote:lol that the allies abandoned Russia the moment they left the war. I wouldn't go that far, considering the Intervention happened and all.
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Jul 19, 2018 00:43
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really queer Christmas posted:^basically, the left in the uk and France were agitating hard because of the war, and georgeV was worried bringing his cousin home would cause massive unrest - which Britain really couldn’t handle at the moment. so he chose security of his throne over his relatives. maybe OWS was our version of 1905 so we're due for phase 2... 
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Jul 19, 2018 00:47
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2nd hot take: republicanism doesn't require the execution of children.
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Jul 19, 2018 00:49
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They're a liability while alive, because it means that a reactionary force could hide them and then attempt to reestablish the tsardom.
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Jul 19, 2018 00:56
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It was a simpler time
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Jul 19, 2018 00:59
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Suprisingly, that also doesn't justify executing children.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:04
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AlexanderCA posted:Suprisingly, that also doesn't justify executing children. every american president has made decisions that got children murdered
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Jul 19, 2018 01:09
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All loving nobles must hang, no exceptions
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Jul 19, 2018 01:11
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AlexanderCA posted:Suprisingly, that also doesn't justify executing children.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:14
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got any sevens posted:every american president has made decisions that got children murdered I'm glad you agree murdering children is bad. Also I'm not American.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:14
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rudatron posted:Basic utilitarianism says they have to die. Perhaps regrettable, but that's the nature of society at the time. No, it is never justified to execute children.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:20
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AlexanderCA posted:2nd hot take: republicanism doesn't require the execution of children. It's safer if you do
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Jul 19, 2018 01:34
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Captain_Maclaine posted:"The good king led astray by wicked advisors" was an enduring myth in, well, just about every country that had a monarchy and lingered particularly long in Imperial Russia, eventually even resurfacing during the great terror in mutated form as "if only Comrade Stalin knew what was happening, he'd put a stop to it." That's so bizarre, but it makes sense given a long history of repetition. AlexanderCA posted:No, it is never justified to execute children. War isn't about justice. Morality is more than just the lives of a few people, no mater how innocent they are. If you want to destroy a monarchy, you have to eradicate them. If that seems mean to you, just remember that monarchies have no problem starving, enslaving and genociding.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:35
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phasmid posted:That's so bizarre, but it makes sense given a long history of repetition. It makes a bit more sense when you consider both regimes practiced various forms of information control, the Soviets being more effective and assertive on that front than the imperial government, which was indeed necessitated by earlier successes in improving basic education and literacy rates.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:38
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I'm pretty sure executing unarmed, imprisoned children in the context of a war, is a war crime.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:40
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Captain_Maclaine posted:It makes a bit more sense when you consider both regimes practiced various forms of information control, the Soviets being more effective and assertive on that front than the imperial government, which was indeed necessitated by earlier successes in improving basic education and literacy rates. I read recently (might've been here on SA) that the Russians had one of the first systems of real beurocratic control. That they started sometime in the mid-1800s issuing paperwork to people and trying to restrict their movements throughout the country. So if a person was born in one region/province/whatever they would, in theory, need a reason to go anywhere else. That apparently there wasn't much travel for work or for pleasure. I know that around 100-150 years ago almost every nation that was heavily industrializing had to make public education a priority, so that alone doesn't explain all the quirks that crop up within the varied places. Germany didn't even have that many literate people until shortly before the Kaiser, IIRC. But that might not be germane to the thread. AlexanderCA posted:I'm pretty sure executing unarmed, imprisoned children in the context of a war, is a war crime. There was no coda for war crimes back then. Go back a few centuries before security afforded them some manners and you'll find that the nobility had a real knack for murdering eachother's offspring.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:44
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phasmid posted:I read recently (might've been here on SA) that the Russians had one of the first systems of real beurocratic control. That they started sometime in the mid-1800s issuing paperwork to people and trying to restrict their movements throughout the country. So if a person was born in one region/province/whatever they would, in theory, need a reason to go anywhere else. That apparently there wasn't much travel for work or for pleasure. The Russian peasantry/serfdom were legally tied to the land until emancipation in 1861,* and prior to that point could not move or travel any real distance without express permission of whomever owned the land they were tied to. Even afterward, it was difficult to travel both for practical reasons and by the internal passport system. *for privately-owned serfs. Those living in state-owned estates had to wait until 1866. quote:I know that around 100-150 years ago almost every nation that was heavily industrializing had to make public education a priority, so that alone doesn't explain all the quirks that crop up within the varied places. Germany didn't even have that many literate people until shortly before the Kaiser, IIRC. In Germany it really depended on which German state you lived in prior to unification. Brandenburg-Prussia had a very developed system of public education starting in the late 18th century while others such as, say, the Mecklenburgs, languished far behind. quote:There was no coda for war crimes back then. Go back a few centuries before security afforded them some manners and you'll find that the nobility had a real knack for murdering eachother's offspring. Imperial Russia had been a signatory to the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, both of which dealt with treatment of prisoners and civilians during wartime. Captain_Maclaine has issued a correction as of 01:57 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 01:54
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I've got some reading to do. Thank you for the replies. So around the time they abolished serfdom the people there had a bigger measure of freedom, not just some new way to keep them in place? Russia seems to be so benighted wherever you start reading their history any time after the turn of the last millennium it's hard to imagine what it was like before really modern Russia. Captain_Maclaine posted:Imperial Russia had been a signatory to the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, both of which dealt with treatment of prisoners and civilians during wartime. I didn't know that. But even if it wasn't a good idea to kill the royal family, how would we hold the soviets responsible? They weren't really the power yet, so they'd be more like what we'd call an insurgency or a terror group. Can't hold them to law, just beat them or wait and see how things shake out. phasmid has issued a correction as of 02:04 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 02:01
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If you excuse the execution of children you're going to excuse anything the side you identify with does. Then you're just uncritically playing team politics. It was and is neither necessary or justified to willfully gun down child prisoners.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:07
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phasmid posted:I've got some reading to do. Thank you for the replies. So around the time they abolished serfdom the people there had a bigger measure of freedom, not just some new way to keep them in place? Russia seems to be so benighted wherever you start reading their history any time after the turn of the last millennium it's hard to imagine what it was like before really modern Russia. No problem! I'm a professional historian and Russia's an area I've done some work on. Things got freer for the peasantry with emancipation, but they were still controlled by the need for internal passports and other papers which the police could and did check regularly; this was in part just a reaction to emancipation and also to prevent too many leaving the land to seek work in the cities, a particular problem as the land reallocation scheme that accompanied emancipation was, err, not that well thought out and left many disenchanted former serfs ready to flip agriculture the bird and skip town. quote:I didn't know that. But even if it wasn't a good idea to kill the royal family, how would we hold the soviets responsible? They weren't really the power yet, so they'd be more like what we'd call an insurgency or a terror group. Can't hold them to law, just beat them or wait and see how things shake out. Yeah no messy multiparty civil wars like the one Russia was embroiled in at the time the Bolsheviks executed the Romanovs are almost always replete with atrocities and crimes inflicted indiscriminately, with settling of accounts only coming once it's all done and highly dependent on who ends up on top. I wouldn't call them an insurgent group anymore by that point, though, as the Reds were definitely an established power among those fighting to control Russia by that point.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:10
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AlexanderCA posted:No, it is never justified to execute children. even low energy jeb! would kill baby hitler given the chance Gringostar has issued a correction as of 02:17 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 02:11
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Please don't take moral cues from Jeb Bush.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:21
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AlexanderCA posted:If you excuse the execution of children you're going to excuse anything the side you identify with does. Then you're just uncritically playing team politics. This is some extremely dumb lib bullshit, you're removing all the context and making it sound like they were shooting children for fun instead of to prevent the return of a psychopathic autocracy that had already killed millions, stop defending monarchy so you can keep hanging out on the moral high ground sniffing your own farts. It didn't happen in a vacuum you dullard
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Jul 19, 2018 02:27
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"ACTUALLY THERE'S NEVER AN EXCUSE TO KILL PRISONERS" I holler as I burst into the courtroom at the Nuremberg Trials
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Jul 19, 2018 02:29
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are you literally a child
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Jul 19, 2018 02:29
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AlexanderCA posted:Please don't take moral cues from Jeb Bush. low energy 
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Jul 19, 2018 02:30
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