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I really get slightly annoyed when you say 10 years wasn’t that long ago. The world was so much different than what it was today. The culture has shifted so far from then that it’s still completely alien to a lot of people. The stuff that was considered high comedy then is super cringy and outdated by today’s standards.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:08
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Remember 10 years ago when we didn't live in a country where Nazis were rising in power? Man, good times.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:12
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CelticPredator posted:I really get slightly annoyed when you say 10 years wasn’t that long ago. The world was so much different than what it was today. The culture has shifted so far from then that it’s still completely alien to a lot of people. Sorry, not buying it. Rape and child abuse jokes were considered on the edge then just as they are now. It's just that being edgy for the sake of edgy was in vogue at the time, and so it was more common to see those kind of jokes. Absolutely does not change the fact that someone like Gunn knew that the jokes were meant to shock or potentially even offend. That was the point of the joke. So if you're gonna be that kind of comedian, be ready to not have every corporation beating down your door to employ you.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:12
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Hangover 2 has an extended transgendered rape joke that’s played for laughs, tons of racist humor (I think? I barely remember that movie, it was so awful), and jokes at the expense of the mentally ill. Jack and Jill was filled with really cruel racist and gay jokes as most Sandler films are. 30 Minutes or Less would flat out not exist today at all. I just glanced at the 2011 comedies list but what we found funny then is a hard flip to now. Being edgy was the cool thing to do. It was to stick it to those “pc people” for tying to stamp on our jokes. Voices weren’t heard yet. It was just liberals yelling into the void instead of the people who were actually bothered and oppressed. It wasn’t until the rape culture talk came out that rape jokes have been pretty much wiped out for the most part
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Jul 24, 2018 16:13
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GrandpaPants posted:Remember 10 years ago when we didn't live in a country where Nazis were rising in power? Man, good times. I don't remember that, as the Patriot Act was signed into law in 2001.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:13
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CelticPredator posted:Hangover 2 has an extended transgendered rape joke that’s played for laughs, tons of racist humor (I think? I barely remember that movie, it was so awful), and jokes at the expense of the mentally ill. Jack and Jill was filled with really cruel racist and gay jokes as most Sandler films are. None of that poo poo was funny even then. Sandler has been highly criticized for some of the jokes from that time and The Hangover 2 is reviled as one of the worst sequels of all time.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:15
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Basebf555 posted:Sorry, not buying it. Rape and child abuse jokes were considered on the edge then just as they are now. It's just that being edgy for the sake of edgy was in vogue at the time, and so it was more common to see those kind of jokes. Absolutely does not change the fact that someone like Gunn knew that the jokes were meant to shock or potentially even offend. That was the point of the joke. So if you're gonna be that kind of comedian, be ready to not have every corporation beating down your door to employ you. ...the boldface part is the exact reason this entire situation is contrived, orchestrated bullshit. Basebf555 posted:None of that poo poo was funny even then. Sandler has been highly criticized for some of the jokes from that time and The Hangover 2 is reviled as one of the worst sequels of all time. 1. "That wasn't funny" is subjective. 2. At the time of its release, The Hangover Part II was also the 4th highest grossing R-rated movie of all time (and still sits at 8th today). Obviously some people did find it funny. I'm not one of them, but I'm not going to pretend like the world crossed its arms and shook its head and said "that's too far". ricdesi fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 16:15
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ricdesi posted:...the boldface part is the exact reason this entire situation is contrived, orchestrated bullshit. I can't disagree that it's contrived and disingenuous. It's a lovely situation and I hate Cernovich just as much as anyone. But for me, saying that Gunn is a blameless victim is a step to far.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:17
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I don't remember that, as the Patriot Act was signed into law in 2001. Also 90s right wing militias. Theres a reason right wing groups were at the top of FBI watchlists for several decades.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:20
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James Gunn wasn’t an “edge-pushing comedian,” he was a 40 year old dude doing weird lovely ironic humor on twitter which makes him as much of a comedian as half of the “ironic” racists and sexists and homophobes on reddit or 4chan or whatever. Also, “edgy” humor wasn’t invented in 2010 or whatever. George Carlin did “rape can be funny” two decades earlier and he wasn’t the first comedian to figure out that sometimes offensive subjects can be mined for humor. The only thing the 2000s gifted us, maybe, was this particular strain of “humor” where the joke is that you say really terrible things, but ironically, so it’s funny (because can you believe he said that?!) and you can’t be held responsible. Not coincidentally a lot of the shittiest corners of the internet are full of people being “ironic” Nazis or whatever who would probably be very happy with a social standard that you can say whatever you want publicly as long as you’re being performative. Hell, that’s Alex Jones actual defense in his child custody battle: he doesn’t mean any of it, he’s not really crazy, it’s just a performance.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:22
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40 year olds are allowed to be immature.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:23
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I do think that something that keeps getting lost in the conversation here is how horrible it is that this Twitter targeting campaign is the alt-right corrupting the accountability atmosphere that arose around the #metoo movement. Like (as far as we know) James Gunn or Michael Ian Black have not actually assaulted or harassed anyone in real life (Harmon is his own unique, different story). However, the only reason this has been as effective of a tactic as it has been is because we’re in a moment where bad behavior (specifically sexual assault and harassment) are no longer being blindly tolerated. But that very good and positive culture shift has been more or less weaponozed by the worst people imaginable here, for the most petty and self-serving reasons. It... loving sucks. Like I know that is an obvious and perhaps weak statement on the fact, but it just does. It clouds the waters of this new era of sensitivity and awareness. And the fact that it is Cernovich, of all people, leading this trend is just.. galling and hideous.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:24
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YOLOsubmarine posted:James Gunn wasn’t an “edge-pushing comedian,” Watch his older film work, "edge-pushing comedian" describes James Gunn pre-2010 pretty succinctly.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:25
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Fart City posted:I do think that something that keeps getting lost in the conversation here is how horrible it is that this Twitter targeting campaign is the alt-right corrupting the accountability atmosphere that arose around the #metoo movement. Like (as far as we know) James Gunn or Michael Ian Black have not actually assaulted or harassed anyone in real life (Harmon is his own unique, different story). However, the only reason this has been as effective of a tactic as it has been is because we’re in a moment where bad behavior (specifically sexual assault and harassment) are no longer being blindly tolerated. But that very good and positive culture shift has been more or less weaponozed by the worst people imaginable here, for the most petty and self-serving reasons. Harmon story isn't unique. He was in a position of power over a female subordinate and when she did not return his advances he set out to makes her life as horrible as possible. The only difference is that he got ahead of the story and apologized for his behavior in front of a live audience.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:38
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MacheteZombie posted:Also 90s right wing militias. Theres a reason right wing groups were at the top of FBI watchlists for several decades. In fact the obsession with the Clintons began with the far right militias they made a project out of in the early to mid 90s.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:40
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BexGu posted:Harmon story isn't unique. He was in a position of power over a female subordinate and when she did not return his advances he set out to makes her life as horrible as possible. The only difference is that he got ahead of the story and apologized for his behavior in front of a live audience. I didn’t mean his actions were necessarily unique, but in how things unfolded. He apologized, the victim forgave him. Some say that’s good enough, others think he should still be viewed as a harasser. I wanted to mention him, as he is part of the larger point I was trying to make, but didn’t want to run the risk of derailing said point.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:42
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The South Park Indiana Jones episode was ten years ago as well, I don't remember that being massively controversial. Trey Parker was doing a voice in a family film last year.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:42
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I brought that up in the last thread. Family Guy also had a ton of nasty rape jokes, and MacFarlane was a character in Sing.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:46
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Karloff posted:The South Park Indiana Jones episode was ten years ago as well, I don't remember that being massively controversial. Trey Parker was doing a voice in a family film last year. I think the fact that South Park is still making dumptrucks full of money is all the proof you need that sometimes people just think extremely controversial things are a teensy bit sill when viewed from a different perspective. Also those two dudes can do anything they want and no one can touch them. Seth MacFarlane is the highest paid writer in Hollywood (Tina Fey might be about to edge him out) and even he can't say poo poo about them in an interview, because theyve been crushing it just as hard for like 5 years longer, and they almost have a full EGOT. He has jack poo poo.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:48
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ricdesi posted:Watch his older film work, "edge-pushing comedian" describes James Gunn pre-2010 pretty succinctly. He’s not a comedian. Directing movies with comedic elements is not the same thing as being a comedian. It lacks the personal and performative aspects of actually BEING a comedian.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:56
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YOLOsubmarine posted:He’s not a comedian. Directing movies with comedic elements is not the same thing as being a comedian. It lacks the personal and performative aspects of actually BEING a comedian. like what
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Jul 24, 2018 17:01
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YOLOsubmarine posted:He’s not a comedian. Directing movies with comedic elements is not the same thing as being a comedian. It lacks the personal and performative aspects of actually BEING a comedian. This is a new flavor of gatekeeping. He's written 17 screenplays. He's acted in 17 movies. You don't have to be a stand-up comic to be a comedian.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:01
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If you're an entertainer of any kind, and you're on Twitter making jokes, it's the same as if you're on stage being recorded. Anyone who didn't realize that ten years ago was an idiot.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:04
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Basebf555 posted:If you're an entertainer of any kind, and you're on Twitter making jokes, it's the same as if you're on stage being recorded. Anyone who didn't realize that ten years ago was an idiot. And the jokes James Gunn made in 2008 were pretty much in line with the movies James Gunn was making in 2008. Surprisingly, people make career changes.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:08
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Basebf555 posted:If you're an entertainer of any kind, and you're on Twitter making jokes, it's the same as if you're on stage being recorded. Anyone who didn't realize that ten years ago was an idiot. I'm glad you lived 10 years ahead of 10 years ago, but most people didn't. A lot of stand up comedians used smaller sets to test out jokes to weed out which ones worked and which ones don't. Then people started to record them and that hosed it all up. I think that's a bit lovely considering one of the hardest parts of being a creative is figuring out what works and what doesn't. You need to test it out on other people to see if it clicks or it's just trash. That BEING said, if some nasty michael richards poo poo was going on, then yeah. recording is good and justified.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:09
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ricdesi posted:And the jokes James Gunn made in 2008 were pretty much in line with the movies James Gunn was making in 2008. Surprisingly, people make career changes. If Disney had a problem with the tweets in 2008 they shouldn't have hired him, agreed. But also, Gunn was an idiot. That is to say, if he's going to act like an innocent victim here, he's an idiot. But I've not seen a statement from him indicating that yet, so maybe he understands that this is just how the game is played. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 17:11
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ricdesi posted:This is a new flavor of gatekeeping. He's written 17 screenplays. He's acted in 17 movies. You don't have to be a stand-up comic to be a comedian. Part of the reason stand up comics get a pass on offensive material is that bombing a set is absolutely mortifying. The judgement is immediate and direct and personal and there is no recourse other than to stand there and finish your set and then probably go do it again the next night. There’s a level of distance from the material and the repercussions that a director or actor or writer gets that a performing comic doesn’t.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:11
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ricdesi posted:This is a new flavor of gatekeeping. He's written 17 screenplays. He's acted in 17 movies. You don't have to be a stand-up comic to be a comedian. A while ago people posted some original or earlier drafts of Leon (The Professional if you are on the wrong continent) in which Besson revealed some... worrying aspects of his character through his writing. Of course the final film was quite different, his work and his voice being filtered through review, addition and overhaul by his colleagues and of course being subject to interpretation by his actors performing the work. Now imagine he posted the things he wrote in that script flat out on twitter? He would have been in the trouble he is now much sooner if he had and thats kind of why its different to have that lack of a safety net when being front and centre and wholly responsible for what you are saying like a stand up comic, or someone posting tweets in public under their own name.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:15
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Basebf555 posted:If Disney had a problem with the tweets in 2008 they shouldn't have hired him, agreed. But also, Gunn was an idiot. That is to say, if he's going to act like an innocent victim here, he's an idiot. But I've not seen a statement from him indicating that yet, so maybe he understands that this is just how the game is played. Yo my dude he issued an apology where he put all the blame on himself.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:15
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CelticPredator posted:I'm glad you lived 10 years ahead of 10 years ago, but most people didn't. I dunno, I feel like this conversation is getting more and more abstract. What's the point of posting stuff like that as a public figure in the first place? Obviously provocation, and if you can provoke people about child molestation, surely you can defend yourself against Mike Cernovich.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:16
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I'm sure he could defend himself against Mike, but uh, he didn't really have a chance too? And why post stuff like that? I dunno! I can't tell you. Why do people poo poo post? Most of the time it isn't funny. Perhaps it's just to let off some steam. Be as nasty as possible channeling the extreme to a point of catharsis?
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Jul 24, 2018 17:23
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CelticPredator posted:Yo my dude he issued an apology where he put all the blame on himself. Good for him then, I admire that. So Gunn himself is more correct on this issue than posters itt, who are discussing it as if he's an innocent victim.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:23
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CelticPredator posted:I'm sure he could defend himself against Mike, but uh, he didn't really have a chance too? In what way is he restricted from defending himself?
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Jul 24, 2018 17:25
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:In what way is he restricted from defending himself? Disney fired him. That ends it there. It's like defending yourself after someone shoots you in the face. You're already dead. Although, I don't know what kind of defense you mean. Like defending the jokes? I don't think James is that evil to do that.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:28
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Basebf555 posted:But I've not seen a statement from him indicating that yet, so maybe he understands that this is just how the game is played. He has definitely addressed it already and apologized (for the second time in many years). YOLOsubmarine posted:Part of the reason stand up comics get a pass on offensive material is that bombing a set is absolutely mortifying. I've done stand-up comedy. No one just gets a pass because it's hard, or because it's embarrassing if you gently caress up or piss people off. YOLOsubmarine posted:The judgement is immediate and direct and personal and there is no recourse other than to stand there and finish your set and then probably go do it again the next night. I thought you were arguing that making jokes on Twitter was different from stand-up comedy? YOLOsubmarine posted:There’s a level of distance from the material and the repercussions that a director or actor or writer gets that a performing comic doesn’t. Pro tip: You're describing a stand-up comic. Not a comedian. There is a difference. No one is calling Gunn a stand-up comic. He is however, unambiguously, a comedian. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I dunno, I feel like this conversation is getting more and more abstract. What's the point of posting stuff like that as a public figure in the first place? Obviously provocation, and if you can provoke people about child molestation, surely you can defend yourself against Mike Cernovich. He was fired almost instantly, what good would getting into a throwdown with Cernovich have possibly done? ricdesi fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 17:28
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"GUNN ISN'T AN INNOCENT VICTIM" The dude made some off-color jokes that he deleted after he changed. It's not like he was committing crimes here. He's on such a different level from people like Mel Gibson and Kevin Spacey that he shouldn't even be in the same conversation as them.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:28
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CelticPredator posted:Disney fired him. That ends it there. It's like defending yourself after someone shoots you in the face. You're already dead. Although, I don't know what kind of defense you mean. Like defending the jokes? I don't think James is that evil to do that. https://twitter.com/michaelianblack/status/1020652725158260737
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Jul 24, 2018 17:32
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ricdesi posted:I thought you were arguing that making jokes on Twitter was different from stand-up comedy? Making jokes from behind a computer screen through an app that gives you the ability to filter and block responses is wildly different than doing it in front of a live audience. If you’re confused about the difference try to imagine James Gunn walking out to do a comedy set and just reading those tweets. chitoryu12 posted:"GUNN ISN'T AN INNOCENT VICTIM" Well he’s also not being charged with crimes. He’s a victim of being fired from his job working for a soulless publicity obsessed megacorp for the sin of causing them bad publicity. Most of the defenses focus on the fact that the tweets were bad, but also they were 10 years ago, except that 10 years ago was about when he started working for Disney, so the argument seems to be that they shouldn’t have hired him at all.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:35
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Most of the defenses focus on the fact that the tweets were bad, but also they were 10 years ago, except that 10 years ago was about when he started working for Disney, so the argument seems to be that they shouldn’t have hired him at all. Disney has knowingly hired a lot of people despite their bad behavior, many of whom are far worse than Gunn. I don't think making off-color jokes on Twitter and then deleting them should disqualify you from employment. Spousal abuse, attempted statutory rape, racism, and sexual harassment of female employees at the studio? That's a bit different. Notice how Gunn gets kicked out on his rear end within days while John Lasseter is given a quiet buy-out and allowed to stay on as a consultant for the rest of the year. They know who their loyalty lies with and who they consider disposable.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:39
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I think directors of these Marvel films should take a look at this situation and realize how disposable they are as artists and maybe not renew their contracts when they're up.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:41
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