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May as well add this, as it's pretty fresh: Jim Starlin, creator of Thanos, weighs in on the James Gunn controversy.quote:After giving it a couple days to think over this James Gunn/Disney controversy, I've come to the conclusion that the Mouse got played. Yes, Gunn's decade-old tweets were distasteful and stupid, but clearly meant to be foolishly provocative rather than taken as advocacy. The whole uproar over them was plainly ginned up by two Breitbart hatchet men, John Nolte and Mike Cernovich, in response to Rosanne Barr's firing for her repeated hate-filled and racist tweets. I have to agree with Dave Bautisa on this one. Disney accepted a ridiculous apple and oranges argument and made one hell of a bad call.
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Jul 24, 2018 02:34
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Basebf555 posted:The two people we're here talking about are both public figures who make their living as comedy writers. They knew the score, they knew that what they were saying was offensive because they were going out of their way to be that way. Extreme, edgy humor was en vogue in the 2000s, the only reason people like James Gunn, Dan Harmon, and Michael Ian Black are being singled out is because they're actively being singled out now, with the knowledge that - as envelope-pushing comedians - they would have pushed the envelope just as hard during an era in comedy where they had to stand out from everyone else doing the same, giving them ample room to find a "smoking gun" that they're all depraved pedophiles and rapists or something. "I don't know, if I make this post on Text-Message-LiveJournal, I might abruptly lose my job a decade from now when a right-wing rapist doesn't like what I think about a reality TV host after I stop making Troma movies and PG Porn, work for Disney for six years, delete and apologize for all these jokes that just won't work in the future, and clean up my image with the knowledge that those days are behind me. I know the score, I won't post this." Basebf555 posted:Ask Gilbert Gottfried about this. He made a joke about tsunami victims and lost a lucrative ad deal. But that's his way of life, he's a dirty comedian. He shrugged his shoulders and moved on, he found work elsewhere just like these two guys will. So 2011 Gilbert Gottfried tweets about a tragic (and you know, real) 2011 event and gets fired in 2011. Okay. ricdesi fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 15:56
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Basebf555 posted:Sorry, not buying it. Rape and child abuse jokes were considered on the edge then just as they are now. It's just that being edgy for the sake of edgy was in vogue at the time, and so it was more common to see those kind of jokes. Absolutely does not change the fact that someone like Gunn knew that the jokes were meant to shock or potentially even offend. That was the point of the joke. So if you're gonna be that kind of comedian, be ready to not have every corporation beating down your door to employ you. ...the boldface part is the exact reason this entire situation is contrived, orchestrated bullshit. Basebf555 posted:None of that poo poo was funny even then. Sandler has been highly criticized for some of the jokes from that time and The Hangover 2 is reviled as one of the worst sequels of all time. 1. "That wasn't funny" is subjective. 2. At the time of its release, The Hangover Part II was also the 4th highest grossing R-rated movie of all time (and still sits at 8th today). Obviously some people did find it funny. I'm not one of them, but I'm not going to pretend like the world crossed its arms and shook its head and said "that's too far". ricdesi fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 16:15
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YOLOsubmarine posted:James Gunn wasn’t an “edge-pushing comedian,” Watch his older film work, "edge-pushing comedian" describes James Gunn pre-2010 pretty succinctly.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:25
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YOLOsubmarine posted:He’s not a comedian. Directing movies with comedic elements is not the same thing as being a comedian. It lacks the personal and performative aspects of actually BEING a comedian. This is a new flavor of gatekeeping. He's written 17 screenplays. He's acted in 17 movies. You don't have to be a stand-up comic to be a comedian.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:01
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Basebf555 posted:If you're an entertainer of any kind, and you're on Twitter making jokes, it's the same as if you're on stage being recorded. Anyone who didn't realize that ten years ago was an idiot. And the jokes James Gunn made in 2008 were pretty much in line with the movies James Gunn was making in 2008. Surprisingly, people make career changes.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:08
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Basebf555 posted:But I've not seen a statement from him indicating that yet, so maybe he understands that this is just how the game is played. He has definitely addressed it already and apologized (for the second time in many years). YOLOsubmarine posted:Part of the reason stand up comics get a pass on offensive material is that bombing a set is absolutely mortifying. I've done stand-up comedy. No one just gets a pass because it's hard, or because it's embarrassing if you gently caress up or piss people off. YOLOsubmarine posted:The judgement is immediate and direct and personal and there is no recourse other than to stand there and finish your set and then probably go do it again the next night. I thought you were arguing that making jokes on Twitter was different from stand-up comedy? YOLOsubmarine posted:There’s a level of distance from the material and the repercussions that a director or actor or writer gets that a performing comic doesn’t. Pro tip: You're describing a stand-up comic. Not a comedian. There is a difference. No one is calling Gunn a stand-up comic. He is however, unambiguously, a comedian. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I dunno, I feel like this conversation is getting more and more abstract. What's the point of posting stuff like that as a public figure in the first place? Obviously provocation, and if you can provoke people about child molestation, surely you can defend yourself against Mike Cernovich. He was fired almost instantly, what good would getting into a throwdown with Cernovich have possibly done? ricdesi fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jul 24, 2018 |
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Jul 24, 2018 17:28
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Making jokes from behind a computer screen through an app that gives you the ability to filter and block responses is wildly different than doing it in front of a live audience. I don't have to imagine, I've watched plenty of stand-up from the 90s and 00s. Spoiler: There was lots of edgy poo poo going around. It's a blatant hit job under the guise of pearl-clutching, supported only by people who are willfully ignorant of the past. Obsessing over whether it was "okay" to make those jokes is moronic. They were jokes, clearly so, and ones that as far as anyone can tell were never once acted on, and frankly they're nothing special in terms of blue humor from that decade.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:45
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YOLOsubmarine posted:James Gunn also isn’t barred from employment. He can and will work other places. Until the next time Cernovich decides to lead a hate mob against him, and get him fired from a job he doesn't even have yet. You know, like the job he didn't even have yet at Disney when the jokes were first made.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:46
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Trembling in fear of Mike Cernovich is something people seem oddly eager to do. Cool, dude, let's downplay the idea that a rapist can just end your career out of nowhere by siccing half the internet on you.
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Jul 24, 2018 18:04
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Who told Disney to listen to the rapist? Given how instantaneously it happened, someone did. It's totally cool that Roseanne gets several warnings first for being a racist idiot in the present tense though.
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Jul 24, 2018 18:09
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:What happens when Disney (or whoever in this hypothetical) owns the majority of movie production companies on the planet and someone has a falling out with them and now can't get a job because they own 70% of everything? Not to mention Sony pulling him from his SDCC appearance as well. "I'm sure he'll find work" rings pretty hollow when the only upward/lateral moves he can make are to the companies that are now giving him the cold shoulder.
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Jul 24, 2018 18:34
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YOLOsubmarine posted:That’s real bad, but that was real bad before James Gunn got fired for a whole host of reasons and James Gunn’s continued employment as a millionaire comic book movie director is really low on the list of worries I have about the increasing consolidation of control over individual lives by essentially unaccountable mega corporations. That's why it's effective. You don't see it as a problem, so the next big firing is only a small step past that, and the next is only a small step past that. So long as people are willing to go "oh who cares, he'll be fine" without being incensed by how this all went down, it's going to continue and worsen.
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Jul 24, 2018 19:27
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:What is there to say about this other than "people in the media love making everything about themselves". If you're looking for that moment, it's been with us for years and years now, the only thing particularly alarming about this case is that it happened to someone well off, because we're totally conditioned to famous rich people doing and saying whatever the hell they feel like. The alarming thing isn't that he's famous, it's that a literal swamp thing like Cernovich can unironically point at someone else as if they're a sexual deviant, and convince millions that it's true because he made lovely jokes. It's not just "oh, James Gunn won't work for Disney anymore", it's "oh, the court of public opinion can be weaponized to destroy careers over actual, literal nothing".
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Jul 24, 2018 19:41
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Hemingway To Go! posted:Would you say it's a little bit reassuring that Mike has already gone off on several other celebrities with nothing much happening on the scale of Disney firing Gunn. It makes it feel a lot less immediate, yes, but it's equally not reassuring that the moment he got the positive feedback for his hit on Gunn, he started looking for more "liberal elites" (that are conveniently outspoken against Trump) to target. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:No, because you'd have to admit then that Disney is the problem. Disney is the problem. Mike Cernovich is a different problem. The volatility of the court of public opinion is the issue that links them.
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Jul 24, 2018 20:51
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Not really, as you and others have noted that Disney acts independently of the 'court of public opinion'. Your reading comprehension skills have seriously degraded if that's what you took away from this.
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Jul 24, 2018 20:58
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Yea, there are people out there that believe he’s a sexual deviant because Cernovich said so, but a credulous, conspiracy minded, bloodthirsty far right movement isn’t exactly new in American politics. Dudes like Cernovich have been around for decades they just ran AM radio shows instead of twitter and were secret Nazis instead of open ones. I do agree with you here, but this is the worrying trend. It's not secret anymore, it's not underground or locked away on low-band radio. Alex Jones has millions of viewers, Cernovich seems to be trying to make a new career out of carpetbombing others'. And instead of corporations like Disney telling them to get bent, they're folding like... distressingly fast to any pressure from them.
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Jul 24, 2018 21:05
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:You can own up to that stuff (you know, that you posted as a grown man to provoke people) while also defending yourself against a smear. He was fired almost instantly, defending himself (especially against the effectively infinite mob of Alt-Right Twitter) wouldn't have done a single drat thing. Also, he already owned up to that stuff years ago. How often, exactly, is one meant to re-up their ownership of jokes made in bad taste?
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Jul 25, 2018 17:06
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Wren610 posted:People need to stop looking at everything through a political lens. Not really an option these days. The whole reason this thread exists is because of a political hit job, seems kind of silly to say "but don't look at this visibly political incident as a political incident". YOLOsubmarine posted:If you think this is the beginning of something then you weren’t paying attention until he did something that affected comic book movies. "This is how it's always been, so nothing will ever change it and this will be how it works forever." ricdesi fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 18:14
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Large numbers of people can’t be bothered to care about or mobilize against a Nazi provocateur until he endangers their favorite corporate franchise so yea, it probably will work that way forever. "This isn't the right kind of last straw, let's wait for a different one."
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Jul 26, 2018 20:48
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YOLOsubmarine posted:If this was anyone’s last straw or wake up call then they are a huge part of the problem and their complete apathy about anything going around them until it affects their movies is inexcusable. ricdesi posted:"This isn't the right kind of last straw, let's wait for a different one."
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Jul 26, 2018 21:03
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Basebf555 posted:Maybe instead of arguing on the internet about James Gunn being the last straw, we should do something about those concentration camps we have going or about the multiple genocides we're participating in. I agree wholeheartedly. It's not "the last straw" for me, I've been past that point for a while. But for some, it may very well be, and to dismiss that as stupid because it's not "the right reason to get upset" kinda defeats the whole point of waking more people up to the overarching bullshit in general. It seems like a supremely stupid move for someone to taunt people who may only now be seeing recent trends for what they are, rather than bringing them on board and working toward a solution. But hey, some people just like being snarky, contrarian shits. ricdesi fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 21:18
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YOLOsubmarine posted:As for gatekeeping allies...who say’s they’re allies? “Thinks James Gunn shouldn’t have been fired because Mike Cernovich is a Nazi” doesn’t really tell me much about their politics. Pretty much nobody thinks he shouldn't have been fired "because Mike Cernovich is a Nazi". It's incidental, and opens up a different discussion entirely on the creepy and disconcerting amount of power actual Nazis have in American society. But if that's your takeaway then you seem to be intentionally misrepresenting the people you're hurling yourself into an argument with.
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Jul 26, 2018 21:39
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Okay, so I'm not the only one then, cool.
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Jul 26, 2018 23:20
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NotJustANumber99 posted:I agree Walt Disney Co's share price is a valuable metric when discussing acceptable public discourse. Anywhere. It was pulled up because an earlier post was a Fox Business report saying stocks took a dive, which they apparently didn't. Are you okay, dude?
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Jul 27, 2018 00:09
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:What unites them is a common politic, therefore there is no appreciable difference between the Blue Lives Matter shithead, the small business tyrant who thinks its their god given right to make people work for free, a neonazi, a Fox News boomer, amoral finance guy. Collectively, they're all worthless for the exact same reason. Which is?
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Jul 27, 2018 16:24
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Nobody tell BravestOfTheLamps we've had antihero films since literally the 19th century. Starting to wonder if he can't finish without finding something pedantic and meaningless to moan about. Also, wtg Disney for supremely loving yourself out of a nice fat paycheck because a Nazi rapist whispered something you already knew in your ear.
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Aug 26, 2018 21:52
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The GotG movies are terrible, artistically and morally Subjective opinion stated as fact. BravestOfTheLamps posted:which makes it natural that the fans want Gunn's terrible tweets to be forgiven by Disney so that he can direct more terrible movies for them. Audiences like watching poo poo blow up and people being funny doing it. So what. BravestOfTheLamps posted:GotG is about pandering to manchild fantasy and sentimentality You've just described about 50% of all fiction, you navel-gazing über-dork. BravestOfTheLamps posted:which is why Gunn has such a loyal fanbase to demand his reinstatement. People want his reinstatement because they like his interpretation of the characters, and because he was fired under dubious circumstances. BravestOfTheLamps posted:I'm not sure why criticism of movies is equated with censorship and oppression? Except you're not criticizing movies. You haven't actually criticized anything here. You're bitching about movies you don't like being popular, as usual, and desperately trying to frame it as some moral issue because you know just as well as the rest of us that bitching about movies you don't like being popular is a weak-rear end, indefensible stance to take.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:29
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Yeah, that was all I planned on replying to/with. He got sad during his month-long probation and PM'ed me, figured I should get it out of my system. I will say, it's been good to see the pretty much universal support of his cast and crew thus far, and from several different parts of the industry overall. I'm not expecting Disney to balk because, well, Disney. But if there's even a 1% chance of this turning back around, I'm willing to hold out just a little bit of hope for it. ricdesi fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 14:32
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:(that sentimentalizes space mercenaries) The entire internet has a permanent boner for Firefly, you're not gonna get anywhere with this flaccid barb.
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Aug 27, 2018 19:55
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Like how ricdesi claimed that it's impossible to criticize "antihero films" because they've existed for a long time I never said or suggested this, but please, continue being full of poo poo.
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Aug 28, 2018 17:39
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:First they came to the bad movie directors, but I didn't speak out because loving lol Then they came for the sentimentalized manchildren, and BravestOfTheLamps literally could not stop speaking, possibly due to severe brain damage.
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Sep 19, 2018 17:43
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