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James Gunn wasn’t an “edge-pushing comedian,” he was a 40 year old dude doing weird lovely ironic humor on twitter which makes him as much of a comedian as half of the “ironic” racists and sexists and homophobes on reddit or 4chan or whatever. Also, “edgy” humor wasn’t invented in 2010 or whatever. George Carlin did “rape can be funny” two decades earlier and he wasn’t the first comedian to figure out that sometimes offensive subjects can be mined for humor. The only thing the 2000s gifted us, maybe, was this particular strain of “humor” where the joke is that you say really terrible things, but ironically, so it’s funny (because can you believe he said that?!) and you can’t be held responsible. Not coincidentally a lot of the shittiest corners of the internet are full of people being “ironic” Nazis or whatever who would probably be very happy with a social standard that you can say whatever you want publicly as long as you’re being performative. Hell, that’s Alex Jones actual defense in his child custody battle: he doesn’t mean any of it, he’s not really crazy, it’s just a performance.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:22
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ricdesi posted:Watch his older film work, "edge-pushing comedian" describes James Gunn pre-2010 pretty succinctly. He’s not a comedian. Directing movies with comedic elements is not the same thing as being a comedian. It lacks the personal and performative aspects of actually BEING a comedian.
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Jul 24, 2018 16:56
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ricdesi posted:This is a new flavor of gatekeeping. He's written 17 screenplays. He's acted in 17 movies. You don't have to be a stand-up comic to be a comedian. Part of the reason stand up comics get a pass on offensive material is that bombing a set is absolutely mortifying. The judgement is immediate and direct and personal and there is no recourse other than to stand there and finish your set and then probably go do it again the next night. There’s a level of distance from the material and the repercussions that a director or actor or writer gets that a performing comic doesn’t.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:11
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ricdesi posted:I thought you were arguing that making jokes on Twitter was different from stand-up comedy? Making jokes from behind a computer screen through an app that gives you the ability to filter and block responses is wildly different than doing it in front of a live audience. If you’re confused about the difference try to imagine James Gunn walking out to do a comedy set and just reading those tweets. chitoryu12 posted:"GUNN ISN'T AN INNOCENT VICTIM" Well he’s also not being charged with crimes. He’s a victim of being fired from his job working for a soulless publicity obsessed megacorp for the sin of causing them bad publicity. Most of the defenses focus on the fact that the tweets were bad, but also they were 10 years ago, except that 10 years ago was about when he started working for Disney, so the argument seems to be that they shouldn’t have hired him at all.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:35
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chitoryu12 posted:Disney has knowingly hired a lot of people despite their bad behavior, many of whom are far worse than Gunn. I don't think making off-color jokes on Twitter and then deleting them should disqualify you from employment. Spousal abuse, attempted statutory rape, racism, and sexual harassment of female employees at the studio? That's a bit different. Yea, Disney sucks. Hollywood sucks. There are plenty of people who deserve to never work again that are still employed in the industry because they make people a lot of money. They aren’t moral actors. Nobody said they were. James Gunn also isn’t barred from employment. He can and will work other places.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:46
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ricdesi posted:Until the next time Cernovich decides to lead a hate mob against him, and get him fired from a job he doesn't even have yet. You know, like the job he didn't even have yet at Disney when the jokes were first made. I’m sure Troma will take him back.
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Jul 24, 2018 17:51
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:What happens when Disney (or whoever in this hypothetical) owns the majority of movie production companies on the planet and someone has a falling out with them and now can't get a job because they own 70% of everything? That’s real bad, but that was real bad before James Gunn got fired for a whole host of reasons and James Gunn’s continued employment as a millionaire comic book movie director is really low on the list of worries I have about the increasing consolidation of control over individual lives by essentially unaccountable mega corporations.
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Jul 24, 2018 19:19
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ricdesi posted:The alarming thing isn't that he's famous, it's that a literal swamp thing like Cernovich can unironically point at someone else as if they're a sexual deviant, and convince millions that it's true because he made lovely jokes. It's not just "oh, James Gunn won't work for Disney anymore", it's "oh, the court of public opinion can be weaponized to destroy careers over actual, literal nothing". That hasn’t really been shown though. I’m not convinced that Gunn’s career is ruined (it’s been like 3 days) and the people that are convinced that Gunn is a sexual deviant aren’t the same people that fired him. Yea, there are people out there that believe he’s a sexual deviant because Cernovich said so, but a credulous, conspiracy minded, bloodthirsty far right movement isn’t exactly new in American politics. Dudes like Cernovich have been around for decades they just ran AM radio shows instead of twitter and were secret Nazis instead of open ones. They happened to find a target that exists at the nexus of “made super weird bad jokes on a public forum and works in a highly visible role for a very PR conscious company” and had success, but it’s an extremely limited amount of success compared to the sheer amount of poo poo that the lunatic mob throws at the wall. Plus the right has actual real power right now that they exercise in far more terrifying ways than “if you were publicly an ironic pedophile in the past they may get you fired by Mickey Mouse.”
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Jul 24, 2018 21:01
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Cernovich has been at this stuff for years. He didn’t just discover the tactic of calling everyone a pedophile, he’s one of the original pizzagater, he just finally had some measure of success against one person who made some unfortunate choices about their public presentation in the past and works for Disney. It’s also worth remembering that the personal revenge aspect is only part of this: the other part is that Cernovich and his ilk want to be able to hide behind a shield of satire or irony or performative provocation to say whatever lovely things they want without repercussions, and saying “they’re just tasteless jokes, who cares,” is exactly what they want to hear.
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Jul 24, 2018 21:19
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Plastik posted:I can't imagine anyone, Disney employee or not, saying "Welp he made some lovely jokes ten years ago, gotta fire him". This is pretty much exactly what happened.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:03
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Plastik posted:No it's not, Disney knew about the tweets. Disney pays people to track what their park employees are saying on social media, do you really think they didn't know he posted those tweets? Someone somewhere at Disney knew about the tweets, Im sure, but the question isn’t whether anyone at Disney was personally offended, it’s whether anyone at Disney thinks their audience would be offended. The firing isn’t evidence that the higher ups at Disney think James Gunn is a pedophile, the evidence is that they don’t want to employ a dude who wrote a bunch of ironic pedophile tweets that a lot of people are just now seeing for the first time. Nobody outside of Weird Mike’s most unbalanced followers actually believes Gunn is a pedophile. chitoryu12 posted:Because it's really dumb to say "Why didn't Gunn just not work for Disney if he didn't want to have his life hosed up???" as if they're not one of the best options for prominent work if you're a director. He got paid millions of dollars to make two highly popular movies, I’m not sold on his like being hosed up until there’s some consequences for him beyond not getting paid more money by the same company to make another.
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Jul 25, 2018 20:59
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Getting James Gunn fired by Disney was not the tipping point at which Nazis became empowered in the US, nor was it the first time they’ve tried to smear and ruin “Hollywood liberals.” Cernovich has been targeting people in this way for years with various degrees of success or failure, so the suggestion that he will now be emboldened by success is ridiculous. He was already emboldened. He convinced a large number people that a pizza parlor was a front a democrat pedophile ring. He was partially responsible for getting John Conyers out of Congress. He started the Susan Rice unmasking controversy (for which Don Jr recommended he won a Pulitzer). He’s gotten journalists fired and reprimanded, or forced them to issue apologies to him. If you think this is the beginning of something then you weren’t paying attention until he did something that affected comic book movies.
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Jul 26, 2018 17:17
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ricdesi posted:"This is how it's always been, so nothing will ever change it and this will be how it works forever." Large numbers of people can’t be bothered to care about or mobilize against a Nazi provocateur until he endangers their favorite corporate franchise so yea, it probably will work that way forever.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:37
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ricdesi posted:"This isn't the right kind of last straw, let's wait for a different one." Lol, sure, this is the last straw, these people won’t completely disappear once the current controversy has faded until such time as weird mike threatens their entertainment again. If this was anyone’s last straw or wake up call then they are a huge part of the problem and their complete apathy about anything going around them until it affects their movies is inexcusable.
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Jul 26, 2018 21:01
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<looks at everything that’s happened in American politics for the last two, ten, twenty, two hundred years> Eh, could be worse <James Gunn gets fired from comic book movies for making ironic pedophile jokes> THIS SHALL NOT STAND!
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Jul 26, 2018 21:09
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Plastik posted:You pick and choose who you're willing to tolarate as allies in a lovely, gatekeeping way, and I cannot underscore enough how terrible an idea that is when you're staring down the barrel of literal Nazis. I can't help but think that maybe you don't get it, maybe you don't understand how lovely and next-level human trash you have to be to willingly don that title. If you seriously think that Obama-era Republicans or even the Tea Party were anything close to Real, Actual Nazis then you're probably too far up your own rear end to be helped. They’re the same people. The Republicans in power are like 99% the same people that were in power then. Some of them tut tut about decorum and some go full open white supremacist like Steve King, but they all support the policies the Nazis want even if they sometimes distance themselves from the rhetoric. The Republican Party hasn’t changed, it’s simply become more honest about it’s ideals. There’s a throughline from Goldwater right up to Trump. As for gatekeeping allies...who say’s they’re allies? “Thinks James Gunn shouldn’t have been fired because Mike Cernovich is a Nazi” doesn’t really tell me much about their politics.
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Jul 26, 2018 21:37
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ricdesi posted:Pretty much nobody thinks he shouldn't have been fired "because Mike Cernovich is a Nazi". It's incidental, and opens up a different discussion entirely on the creepy and disconcerting amount of power actual Nazis have in American society. But if that's your takeaway then you seem to be intentionally misrepresenting the people you're hurling yourself into an argument with. If the charge hadn't been lead by Cernovich or his other Nazi collaborators this story never would have picked up the traction it has. It's interesting largely because of the political dimension and the political dimension is mostly down to who started the witch hunt. Without the panic of Nazis digging through past statements looking for something incriminating to smear their opponents the story would just be "man fired for making many tasteless jokes in the past" which isn't exactly newsworthy and likely happens multiple times a day to people. Plastik posted:Should i repeat myself? There are several common key players and a lot of people have revealed themselves to be worse than we ever imagined, but no, Obama-era Republicans were unseated by Tea Partiers, who were a group mostly comprised of middle-age or older conservatives who had never really understood politics. The Alt-Reich is mostly driven by people in the 18-35 bracket who grew up with the Internet and were mostly turned on to politics and white supremacy on the darker side of it. Who do you think is giving Trump his 80+% approval ratings among republicans? The Tea Party movement may have been ideological for some of the leaders but it was undeniably cultural for most of the voters. Trump's an ideological weathervane but he aligns with the Tea Partiers in one very important way, which is white outrage at the world changing and diversifying around them. Those old white folks at the Tea Party rallies who were saying things like keep government out of my medicare and chanting for lower taxes but maintaining social security weren't ideologues that suddenly discovered their ideology right about the time a black president became a possibility, they were angry whites who latched onto whatever party promised to help them stay on top of the social hierarchy. Why do you think the House Freedom Caucus, the Tea Partiest dudes ever, are trying to do Trump a solid and kill the Russia investigation? You're confusing rhetoric with policy here. Republicans have been the party of white supremacy since pretty much right after the Civil Rights Act passed, they just couched it more palatable terms back then. Now there's a contingent saying what they've wanted to say all along and they've discovered that it doesn't actually make them unelectable. "You start out in 1954 by saying, “friend of the family, friend of the family, friend of the family.” By 1968 you can’t say “friend of the family”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “friend of the family, friend of the family.”" YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 22:16
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ricdesi posted:Which is? They're all Trump supporters. The "these traditional republicans aren't Nazis, they just vote for and provide political support FOR Nazis" take is certainly special. Plastik posted:Late-2000s republicans are unrepentant big-business capitalists. Both parties were and are still full of unrepentant big-business capitalists. The republican party has been the party of racists since 1968 and that's where their political power comes from. Without the mostly reliable southern voting block that was founded on coded racism they would have ceased to exist as a party long ago because "support big business" isn't a political winner. Nobody outside of actual rich people and their editorial writing sycophants actually likes big business, the Dixiecrats were mostly working class and union, but by god they hated black folks. And that hasn't changed, except you can expand it from black folks to brown folks. You've created all of these pointless taxonomies to try and put republicans into little boxes but to what end? Even if this information was correct (which it isn't, you're taking republicans at their word to determine what they care about, instead of looking at what they do) what do you propose to do with it? Are you advocating that we can convince some of these blocs to be allies? That you can cause a party split? That we need to convince them to return to the good ole days of Republicans not being as outwardly racist, merely passing incredibly racist policies while also starting never-ending wars and slashing social services and punishing the poor for their poverty? Republicans now are republicans then. Trump voters were overwhelmingly old and white, not surprisingly the same people who have always formed the strongest Republican voting block. Those folks didn't change their ideology overnight when Trump became the nominee. Also the HFC has had their issues with Trump on the economic side but they are strong allies not merely because it's an election year but because they are actual allies with common cause on a whole host of issues including hating Muslims and brown folks. It's not mere election politics, it's because Trump is helping them further their agenda. Plastik posted:If you pause and put yourself on the other side of this sort of Neopolitik categorical rejection for a minute you might come close to understanding how exactly this attitude has allowed all of those groups to start sliding toward Nazi radicalization. At some point we have to address that, the fact that people on both sides like to throw around a lot of blanket damnations but offer no solutions (because pointing out that you're Definitely Not The Problem feels good but making any attempt to fix it Is Hard) or we're going to end up knee-deep in extreme radicals on both sides of the aisle that don't give two shits about reality. Ah, yes, the truth is in the middle, good point. What good ole days are we trying to get back to before this slide to Nazi radicalization? The 80s? The 90s? YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jul 27, 2018 |
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Jul 27, 2018 17:20
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Plastik posted:"It's weird, I put my Republicans in a box with Nazis then taped it and put it in a closet where I don't engage with it in any way, and now every election I've got more and more Nazis to deal with???" Can you point to any actual policy differences between the current crop of Republican's in government and the past ones? The Nazi's have always been there. America didn't suddenly develop a Nazi problem two years ago. They're just more vocal now, in large part due to technological advancements and also because the President is one of them. quote:The voters who elected Trump are the youngest group of voters who have elected a Republican in thirty years. Covering your ears and telling everyone the problem will solve itself is how, again, you end up with literal Nazis in power. Romney carried a higher percentage of those 45 and under than Trump did. Nationally Trump did slightly worse than Romney as a percentage of the electorate. The actual demographic breakdowns from 2012 to 2016 were remarkably stable, Trump won because he picked up just the right number of people in just the right states, helped in part by people voting for third parties at a higher rate than 2012. quote:Trump was positively vitriolic about the HFC until around March. You're demonstrating the opinion of a person who has never read more than headlines, sees political parties as monoliths, and genuinely believes that there's no value in looking at the world in more than black and white. There are cracks in that block and you can use them, or you can ignore them and we can have more Nazis. Trump has been positively vitriolic about basically anyone in his orbit at some point or another. A "traditional" conservatives have broken with him a number of times, to no actual effect. You're buying into political theater. What has actually happened is that they have given him two supreme court nominees, passed a huge tax giveaway to corporations and the rich, and supported him on his rollback of environmental regulations and his racist immigration polices. But they're VERY offended by his language. quote:Nobody said the truth is in the middle, I said stop categorically rejecting people and start proposing workable solutions or you're worthless to anyone who actually doesn't want to be knee-deep in Nazis. Which you're proving yourself to be. There are a gently caress of a lot of lovely racists in this country and if we don't start either convincing them to stay at home or giving them non-Nazis to vote for we're gonna end up with a lot of Nazis before we end up with any less Nazis. I don't want to go through that. Please stop putting us through that. What you're describing here is exactly the way we got here in the first place. Running blue dogs and centrists who then got ousted by actual republicans because why get the diet version when you can have the real thing. We've had 50 years of respectability politics and trying to understand the other side and here we are. The racists have plenty of non-nazis to vote for. Turns out they like the Nazis.
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Jul 27, 2018 18:12
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:There's a really cool book called The Reactionary Mind that will help you work through all these incomplete thoughts. For example, invoking the concept of "workable solutions" without filling it with any content. Or, pointing to the idea of breeding fascists through using the wrong political discourse, without explaining the mechanisms of fascist breeding, or what is ""wrong"" with the discourse in a substantive way. I’d also recommend Rick Perlstein’s trilogy starting with Nixonland to understand the historical development of the modern right.
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Jul 27, 2018 19:02
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Ramen Pride! posted:Sure seems like slander and defamation with damages to me. Where did you go to law school?
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Aug 10, 2018 03:41
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Ramen Pride! posted:This has become the sort of mega expensive mega studio mega stupid clustertrainwreck that legends are made of. Heck, it is already legend. It hasn’t cost anyone any money other than hypothetical money years down the road that may still be realized.
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Sep 7, 2018 16:08
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AceOfFlames posted:I will never understand having the level of stubbornness or self-absorption required to stick by a decision literally THOUSANDS of people say was a mistake. Thousands of people isn’t very many. There are tens of millions of Americans who think we should torture folks or outlaw Islam or abortion or go to war with Iran. Do you disagree with them?
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Sep 7, 2018 19:42
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AceOfFlames posted:Thats a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. We are talking about admitting fault. I dont get why in this day and age people seem to think apologizing and admitting you are wrong makes you weak. I apologize all the time, even for things that are not my fault. Why is it so hard for people? Who is supposed to be apologizing for what, and why?
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Sep 7, 2018 20:19
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Aleph Null posted:Disney: sorry we jumped the gun (lol) and fired James Gunn based on the word of a right-wing, nazi troll arguing in bad faith. Yes, his old tweets were terrible and absolutely do not reflect the values of Disney, but that was like 7 years ago and, as our movies show, we believe anyone can overcome their faults and learn to be a better person. James Gunn has demonstrated again and again that he is not the same person who made those inappropriate jokes online and we stand behind our decision to re-instate him. Why are you assuming that the dude who made the decision thinks he did the wrong thing and has anything to apologize for? Because “literally THOUSANDS” of people say so?
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Sep 7, 2018 21:47
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Ramen Pride! posted:It's a little better knowing someone out there gets it. Most people don’t sign change.org positions about movies. Most people aren’t intensely online about movies. Gauging general audience response based on change.org petitions is dumb. It’s most certainly the case that of people who care, more care about getting Gunn back than keeping him gone, but the set of people who care about this is much much smaller than the set of people who watch Marvel movies. And again, your argument is that a lot of people think this, therefore it must be correct. Do you still not see the problem there? There’s a petition with over 100,000 signatures to strike The Last Jedi from the Star Wars canon, however that would work. The petition to keep Last Jedi as Canon has 498 signatures. The “make Hilary president, despite her losing the election” petition had over 4 million supporters. Let’s not read too much into who signs these things and why.
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Sep 8, 2018 18:25
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If they ever make another Guardians movie it will do fine, but if they don’t it doesn’t matter because they will just make some other comics movie instead and no matter what it is it will do about as well as Guardians did. The vast majority of people who see these things don’t care about the directors and don’t know who James Gunn is. The directors are the most replaceable part in the marvel formula.
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Sep 11, 2018 16:27
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Star Trek reboot came out five years before Guardians and had quips and optimism and fun in space.
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Sep 12, 2018 01:57
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PoptartsNinja posted:JJ Abrams makes space feel small. There was nothing optimistic about his Star Trek, and because of it CBS learned "people like prequels, we should do more prequels!" so we got the utterly joyless Star Trek: Discovery. JJ Trek created a universe where TNG can never happen all so they could have movies where popular mischaracterizations of Kirk and Spock fight terrorists and black government space helicopters while Leonard Nemoy nods approvingly as he watches Vulcan explode from another solar system. Maybe Star Trek Beyond turned it around, but I never saw it and I don't particularly care to. It was different for the sake of being different, like the Klingons in STD, and the only moment of enjoyment I got was the beginning of the second movie where Kirk and Spock saved an alien planet from being destroyed by a single volcano (there's that scale issue again!). 90 percent of this post is about a TV show (which I’ve never seen) instead of the movie I mentioned. You also haven’t explained how it’s not optimistic despite it being about a multicultural crew thrown together by unfortunate circumstance and lead by a hot-headed misfit managing to overcome their differences to save the world. I guess because nobody dances to oldies in it?
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Sep 12, 2018 02:59
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PoptartsNinja posted:Ok then, I'm sorry you misunderstood so I'll rephrase. JJ Star Trek and Guardians of the Galaxy have a different tone. I’m talking specifically about one movie, not a tv series or the sequels or anything else, simply Star Trek (2009) and asking you explain in what way it’s not optimistic, whereas Guardians of the Galaxy is. You made a very specific statement about Guardians being a rebirth of optimistic, hopeful sci fi and your response to every counterexample has been to talk about mostly irrelevant things like how space is portrayed or the rapacious appetites of space capitalism or whatever. Also, nobody at Disney was tricked. James Gunn was fired based on things he actually wrote.
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Sep 12, 2018 05:09
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CelticPredator posted:It’s the second part. Honestly if you think the firing is justified you’re insane in my opinion. I didn’t say anything about whether it was justified. 21 Muns posted:
Something doesn’t have to be hidden to be exposed. When someone says “college is a place where you’re exposed to new ideas” it doesn’t mean those ideas aren’t publicly available before college. For lots of people this was the first time seeing the tweets Gunn made. Including, presumably, some important people at Disney.
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Sep 12, 2018 14:51
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When this whole thing went down months ago a bunch of people went into a wild panic prophesying that now that weird Mike had discovered that he had the power to get people fired he would wield it indiscriminately to ruin careers left and right. Then he tried to do it Dan Harmon and Michael Ian Black and other random people and the world collectively shrugged and nothing happened and Rick and Morty an Emmy and it turns out that the secret to Weird Mike’s power is the victim has to work for Disney, and have made public jokes about raping children, and also be considered replaceable talent. You know, just like McCarthyism.
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Sep 13, 2018 02:01
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CelticPredator posted:Jokes made before he worked for Disney Sure. If you made kid rape jokes on twitter before you went to work for Disney and you are moderately famous but ultimately replaceable then your job may be in jeopardy.
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Sep 13, 2018 02:21
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CelticPredator posted:Hm. Yeah. So replaceable they've already already hired a new filmmaker to helm the series and they're starting filming next month. If they didn’t think he was replaceable they wouldn’t have fired him. There’s a reason why dudes like Depp get a pass for far worse poo poo.
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Sep 13, 2018 02:41
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chitoryu12 posted:Let's clarify. Jokes made before he worked for Disney which Disney was aware of at the time of his hiring. Jokes that he had apologized for and deleted years ago, which Cernovich had to actually put effort into re-revealing that he said it once. Disney is a huge company and I doubt someone personally got all of the important old white men together in a room and read them tweets about loving kids so they could make a fully informed decision about hiring James Gunn. But yea, of course Disney sucks, that’s not news.
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Sep 13, 2018 17:09
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Sucrose posted:Disney either did zero vetting other than poo poo like a basic background check, or else they knew perfectly well what Gunn's online presence was like and didn't care whatsoever until Cernovich brought it up. Or the people who vetted him aren’t the same ones that fired him, and the ones that fired him perhaps didn’t know specific details, merely that he’d made some unsavory posts but that was in the past. Corporations are massive, inefficient bureaucracies, it’s not really hard to imagine that there were people working off of incomplete information.
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Sep 16, 2018 07:58
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