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Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



I'm pretty sure a blanket moratorium wouldn't stand up to a challenge in court.

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Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



US cities also developed at a different time than the European cities shown above. The purpose and need for public spaces has changed over time--particularly with the shift to industrial modes of production.

However, prior to the pandemic, some cities were experimenting with closing off streets to traffic and giving them over to pedestrians. Initial business and public apprehension usually quickly subsided and both business and people liked it. This was done in several prominent locations in NYC, for example. With the pandemic, the trend has accelerated. Especially with the need for outdoor dining spaces. The slow reclamation of streets for pedestrian uses has been difficult to claw back. There are plenty of examples for me, locally, where this is still the case and businesses aren't going to give back the parking spaces they've reclaimed without a fight.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

the problem with this argument is that it assumes there is some agency you can appeal to, an agency which is making bad decisions, and which simply needs to be persuaded to make good decisions instead

if you've read my brick of a post then first, i apologize for making it, but second, i try to argue that planning in the united states is largely uncoordinated and that car-centric planning is not as much an outcome of deliberate policy decisions, but instead an outcome of policy decisions constrained by resource and managerial limitations. in other words, sprawl is a natural outcome because the united states enshrines local autonomy and property rights, meaning that planning agencies cannot meaningfully prevent sprawl from being constructed

your point about "places to pass through" seems ill defined. you're basically just describing origin/destination and transportation network analysis, then labeling it as bad and accusing planners of doing this bad thing? this argument is equally applicable to public transit, is a train station not simply a place to pass through? i think what you're reaching for here is that pedestrian-oriented modes encourage a more vibrant street life, which is absolutely true and well argued over. otherwise this argument strikes me as a mostly aesthetic criticism in the manner of James Kunstler

the great and irrefutable advantage of the automotive mode from a land development standpoint is that, if i am building a new thing, i do not have to go to a lot of effort to connect my thing to the existing transportation network. i can just connect to the road system and bang, i'm connected to everything else. if i want my new thing to be visited mostly on foot then i'll need to find a location which is both accessible and affordable, as places you can get to on foot where there are also people to visit you are scarce, thus expensive. i could also build my thing or plan to build it somewhere without transit then try to get a transit extension, but that is pretty risky

You and I have had this discussion before and I still disagree that the modern American city happened because of fragmented decision making. I can't make a longer post now, but the fragmentation didn't stop federal policy incentives in the post-war years.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Magic Hate Ball posted:

I think a lot about the general cultural consensus that you only leave your house to engage in consumerism, and if you go to a public place, such as an open-plan mall (and there are few non-park public places that foster gathering that aren't malls), and you do not engage in consumerism, you are now loitering.

There's also truth to this. There's some good critique out there of things like CBDs because of how they lock down public space for consumerism only.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



"Support services are important and needed" isn't a reason to not give people homes in the absence of those services.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Housing is infuriating. It's why I don't work with housing policy.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Doing everything possible to reduce VMTs is the only solution. EVs are green-washed bullshit distracting us from real solutions.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



nelson posted:

Self driving cars can lead to more car sharing which would reduce the number of cars.

Assuming they work exactly as imaged, they're going to lead to an explosion of trips and even more demand for car infrastructure.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



sim posted:

It really just comes down to the fact that you can't consume your way out of climate change, but that's all Western society knows.

This is the sad truth. And we don't have government that knows how to or is capable of action beyond throwing tax breaks at things.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Count Roland posted:

Setting unreasonable goals is not the way to take something seriously.

Society is based on cars and roads. Much of the world is less developed, and building more roads would significantly help the people living there.

If you're proposing to halt road and car production, then you need to offer an alternative to be taken seriously.

"Serious" policy proposals aren't synonymous with "don't do anything difficult." Society wasn't always based on cars. That was a choice. We can undo that choice.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



"Realistic" in this context inherently means patting yourself on the back for being smarter than everyone else who demands better things. You don't demand better things. You demand change in snall increments because it's what serious people do.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



The state of New Jersey is suing the...federal government iirc? to stop NYC from implementing congestion pricing. The irony being that commuter rail is already part of the culture of the tristate area.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Ham Equity posted:

At this point, "change in small increments" is societal suicide.

Like, don't even bother, may as well go full hedonism if all we're going to do is seek a .2% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2030.

Indeed it is, if my sarcasm wasn't understood before. I think the further irony here is that our current car poisoned world wasn't exactly done subtly or in small increments.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



New Jersey is suing the feds over congestion pricing using the lack of an EIS covering parts of New Jersey right now or something.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



There is no substitute for reducing VMTs. EVs, while cleaner at point of emission, still have their own emission costs associated and further lock us into unsustainable land uses. They also require people to own and operate a new toy to fully participate in society. Charging infrastructure isn't going to be distributed equally and this also means urban areas need more parking spaces to devote to charging. There's also the entire issue of spending public money for the benefit of private individuals.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



EVs being heavier than comparably sized vehicles is a large safety issue along with shedding much more from their tires.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Jaxyon posted:

Depends what your goals are.

If you want to reduce rubber waste, yeah go for internal combustion.

If you want to reduce carbon emissions, go for EV.

Nothing is perfectly sustainable in every way.

If your goal is to reduce carbon emissions, you want to reduce VMTs above all else.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



I'm sorry, are you arguing that urban areas can't have food without trucks or...?

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Jaxyon posted:

Sure, but if you're going to have individual vehicles they probably should be electric, and you'll likely still have them no matter what.

Yeah, sure. But we should spend absolutely 0 (zero) dollars on infrastructure for EVs.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



They can. That's how New England towns developed historically.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



I've designed rural bus routes before. It's a thing we can do. Like 80-something % of the US lives in designated urban areas. I think we'd be ok here.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Nitrousoxide posted:

The trick (and something we don't usually do for rural routes) is that you actually need to have frequent service. You can't be super concerned about getting buses full of people each time. You need to be willing to run mostly empty buses to give people the freedom to actually travel around or go to work in off hours.

It depends on the area. The circulator that got set up had 30-minute headways, which isn't great, but given the population of the area was ok. There was another route with similar headways covering a two-lane state route that most of the major destinations ended up on. But the area also got covered by paratransit that was accessed by website, phone, and app. Ridership was decent enough and the towns had been begging for coverage.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Nitrousoxide posted:

Yeah "microtransit" or paratransit can be useful tools for feeding main lines from less dense areas or point-to-point destinations in rural areas. But I'm weary relying on them too much. It's easy to fall into the trap of just making a municipal uber service and having a ton of city/regionally employed taxi drivers instead of doing a proper public transit.

The funny thing is we were asked twice if we could figure out how to make the paratransit more efficient. So we looked at origin-destination pairs, time of day, return trips (where we had the data) and...reinvented fixed-route service.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



I mean, you're not really making an argument. If you want a discussion, maybe make a point other than "trucks exist."

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



The freight and warehousing study I'm a part of right now has really opened my eyes to how absolutely little we know about what's going on and how much the industry is in flux right now. Towns and cities both have no idea what to do with all the fulfilment centers and the related decentralized delivery traffic.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



It is undesirable for governments to invest in that instead of investing in alternatives. MassDOT just got awarded a few federal grants (jointly filed with CSX IIRC from our last meeting with them) to upgrade the rails between Springfield, Worcester, and Boston with the ultimate goal of getting the east west rail off the ground to offer greater connectivity with the Hartford Line and Boston. Maintenance issues need funding to overcome. So do the operator shortages. Take a look at CTPS' TIP and you can see that just good state of repair is budgeted for hundreds of millions given how old rails are in many places. Diverting pubic resources away from this to private entities for the private benefits is bad. Don't do that.

Minenfeld! fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 9, 2023

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Ironically, other countries do faster and cheaper construction because they spend money on their public agencies rather than cutting budgets and staff non-stop forcing everyone to rely on consultants which balloon costs.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



MPOs exist though and provide the staff and policy continuity for long range, region-wide planning efforts.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Best I can tell is there's a desire to argue with others who are clearly too idealistic and not realistic about how we can't have better things because they may be harder than doing nothing.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



We hosted a public meeting yesterday about EV funding for our region and the public came out in decent numbers (as far as public transportation funding meetings go) to argue against spending public funds on EV infrastructure when we could improve pedestrian and cycling infrastructure instead. It was a really positive experience.

Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



They already do. Thankfully it's not stopped any projects I'm aware of yet.

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Minenfeld!
Aug 21, 2012



Then you get stuff like this: https://www.courant.com/2022/12/16/glastonbury-lawsuit-seeks-to-block-developer-from-transforming-tobacco-warehouse-into-30-condos/

If I recall, this dipshit bought his house a few years or so prior, won this lawsuit, and then flipped his house for a few hundred thousand more than he bought it.

There's a bill being considered right now called something like "Work Live Ride" that has a bunch of TOD provisions, but the biggest and raddest part of the bill is allowing city housing authorities to act as land developers outside their own cities. It's made all the worst people mad, including a group of morons that claim the housing issue in the state is because there are too many poors that can't afford houses. The bill passed the house a few days ago.

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